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GiftofMercy
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George are you in the Kingdom of God
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fhansen
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Well he said “we”! 
Of course George considers himself to be in the Kingdom- that’s what it means to be a Christian. I’m still searching for something significantly new or different in his understanding tho, when I have the time to reread it.
Of course George considers himself to be in the Kingdom- that’s what it means to be a Christian. I’m still searching for something significantly new or different in his understanding tho, when I have the time to reread it.
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George720
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All Christians baptized into Christ are hypostatically changed…
We are fundamentally changed as persons…
We are hypostatically conjoined with God…
We are not merely believers who have had profound Spiritual experience…
We have been Baptized INTO Christ…
And Christ IS the Kingdom of God…
But the cap on the noggin is Matt 11:12…
This was not possible prior to John the Baptist…
But the key understanding is its Mystery…
It is not for Chatty Cathies to blather about…
It is a martyric struggle unto one’s death…
The Kingdom of the Heavens is where the King is obeyed…
By that standard, who does not fall short?
There are tares in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth…
For the Ekklesia IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth…
And Christ is the King of this Kingdom…
I can only answer your question with:
I am but an unworthy servant of God…
For which Joy the world is naught…
geo
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George720
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There is nothing new in this understanding…Well he said “we”!
It is simply old time Christianity 101…
Becoming enhypostatically Godded is same old…
It is how the Body of Christ increases…
Rebirth is by Baptism INTO Christ…
In purity of heart…
Conjoined with Christ…
Because a New Creation…
No longer mere anthropos…
But enhypostatic Theanthropos…
Not merely saturated with the Holy Spirit…
But reborn of God as a new person…
I had a rough day yesterday too…
Still have a runny nose…
Hope you are feeling better…
Father’s Day is not for sissies…
And I am a sissy…
With my throat I could sing basso…
In the Russian Cossack Choir…
And I am talking like a frog…
Jes’ Sayin’!!
geo
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George720
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Suddenly quiet…
Did I say something wrong?
Was it too mundane and blasé ?
Is there life after breath?
I mean, I did warn you, yes?
That it was a forehead smacker?
Although initially opaque?
This is not how the West is familiar with Salvation in Christ, yes?
geo
Did I say something wrong?
Was it too mundane and blasé ?
Is there life after breath?
I mean, I did warn you, yes?
That it was a forehead smacker?
Although initially opaque?
This is not how the West is familiar with Salvation in Christ, yes?
geo
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GiftofMercy
Guest
Do you see the Kingdom of God on earth and in Heaven?
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George720
Guest
@GiftofMercy
Heavenly visions not quite that often…
Mind you!!
But directly, I have been given something like a smorgasbord of visions, without ever becoming very good with any of them… I converted from 36 years of atheism, with nothing of any of them, so I have just figured God is dealing with a hard case when dealing with me… I need the club, not the carrot…
Arsenios
I see the Ekklesia of God on earth…
Heavenly visions not quite that often…
Mind you!!
But directly, I have been given something like a smorgasbord of visions, without ever becoming very good with any of them… I converted from 36 years of atheism, with nothing of any of them, so I have just figured God is dealing with a hard case when dealing with me… I need the club, not the carrot…
Arsenios
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George720
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So I called in on Catholic Answers Live and asked their chief apologist about the difference between OT and NT Salvations - And it turns out that he wrote a book about it, so I thought I had hit the jack-pot… But sadly, I was wrong… He bucket-listed me with contrasting the general carnal savings of the OT in this life to the generally spiritual saving of the NT in the next life, and I never got to ask any follow-up questions…
He said that the thrust of my question is more theological in nature than apologetic, and that I should ask Catholic theologians who could speculate on possible answers… Not a hopeful reply… I got the impression that the remark was dismissive, but I could not tell him I agreed with his dismissal… Because callers are blocked from speaking while their question is being addressed…
geo
He said that the thrust of my question is more theological in nature than apologetic, and that I should ask Catholic theologians who could speculate on possible answers… Not a hopeful reply… I got the impression that the remark was dismissive, but I could not tell him I agreed with his dismissal… Because callers are blocked from speaking while their question is being addressed…
geo
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BartholomewB
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Details, please?
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George720
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BartholomewB
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Thank you. It must be this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Salvat...7:akin,p_28:drama&s=books&sr=1-1&unfiltered=1
https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Salvat...7:akin,p_28:drama&s=books&sr=1-1&unfiltered=1
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George720
Guest
That’s him -
An attentive and well ordered and logical mind…
On EWTN Catholic Answers Live…
888 318-7784
An attentive and well ordered and logical mind…
On EWTN Catholic Answers Live…
888 318-7784
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fhansen
Guest
I’m seriously trying to understand where the difference lies here. Certainly the west understands that union with God, communion with the Trinity, is the central aspect of our faith. Jesus is the focal point because He is revelation; He’s how we meet God. And washing, cleansing, rebirth, being made new creations- this is all, as you say, Christianity 101. This theology is even built into our sacraments, to make things simple and clear for living this faith out- regardless of how well any one person may or may not actually be living it out, regardless of how truly faithful they are to it internally IOW.
And all this involves and seeks to increase the knowledge-the “knowing” -of God that I spoke of. I don’t know that there’s more or less to it than that. To know God is to have eternal life. I don’t think such salvation was yet possible for the masses in that way alone; I don’t think many were yet capable of or ready to know God-we barely are now-so He touched prophets and key players here and there as part of His overall plan of preparing us -preparing humanity- for when the time was to become ripe.
But in any case, yes, intimate union with God, culminating in a relationship of mutual love, is what this is all about. Citing a quote from John Chrysostom from another thread:
"But those who wish to find justification from the Law will also fall from grace. They will not be able to enjoy the King’s loving-kindness because they are striving to gain salvation by their own efforts; they will draw down on themselves the curse of the Law because by the works of the Law no flesh will find justification."
That’s the difference between the Old and New Covenant: relying on my efforts vs relying on God, possible only to the extent that we enter communion with Him: "Apart from Me you can do nothing."
Basil of Cesarea had this to say:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
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George720
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@fhansen
So now we can see why it is that Christ would say that the least in the Kingdom of the Heavens is greater than the greatest of the Old Testament Prophets - And the reason is a central one, a core issue, something that places the Ekklesia of God at the very center of Christian life, and why the Great Commission which the Risen Christ commissioned to His Apostles, which was to disciple ALL the Nations (yes, disciple is a verb) BAPTIZING them… For it is by this action that those who are Christ’s are entered into the Kingdom of the Heavens, which is the Ekklesia of God on earth, where we walk on the earth, but we are not OF the earth…
The Ekklesia IS the New Creation, created anew by God in the Mystery of Baptism, one soul at a time…
The OT Holy Ones were far, far more meritorious than you and I will ever be on this earth, and they were much more saturated with the Holy Spirit - Our Brother Moses fairly shone with this Spirit, so saturated in Holiness was he coming off the Holy Mountain - Yet all of this was given to him by God from the outside, and was not a product of anything different inside, in the original core of his hypostasis, indeed in his person…
Yet the discipling is much the same - The Ways of God do not themselves change that much in this fallen condition in which we find ourselves standing and walking… Our job in this Newness of Life is to acquire the Holy Spirit and to therein BE the gods we were created to be - As Moses was a god to Pharaoh - Lest by becoming worldly, we find ourselves exploiting our brothers and sisters, and then find ourselves dying like anthropoids… (see Ps. 82)
This is why we are a “Royal Priesthood”, because a Priest is a dispenser of God’s Grace, and like the Blessed Virgin, we having received freely, freely then do we give… And it is all done clandestinely - An undercover, yes even a covert, operation, conducted in the Love of God, without earthly reward, and often at great earthly cost - The cost of discipleship…
For from the time of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the Heavens is suffering violence… And the violent are seizing it by force… And that force is the power of repentance, the denial of the self, and the taking up of one’s own cross of suffering and pain unto death, and following Christ unto the acquisition of the Holy Spirit, and the Joy of God in the Peace of Christ and the giving of good things…
You have this teaching already…
It is one of the many items in your bucket list…
It is buried somewhere in there…
Probably buried deep…
Nothing ever gets thrown away…
It just gets buried in a pile…
Along with tons of other ideas…
My favorite frustration with scholars…
Especially Lutherans scholars…
Making sure all ideas are mentioned…
And regarding inclusivity as understanding…
I mean, it is still suddenly quiet around here…
And yet I can hear the war being fought…
Gunfire and flares and wounded…
God Bless you, Hansen…
Wherever you are…
geo
So now we can see why it is that Christ would say that the least in the Kingdom of the Heavens is greater than the greatest of the Old Testament Prophets - And the reason is a central one, a core issue, something that places the Ekklesia of God at the very center of Christian life, and why the Great Commission which the Risen Christ commissioned to His Apostles, which was to disciple ALL the Nations (yes, disciple is a verb) BAPTIZING them… For it is by this action that those who are Christ’s are entered into the Kingdom of the Heavens, which is the Ekklesia of God on earth, where we walk on the earth, but we are not OF the earth…
The Ekklesia IS the New Creation, created anew by God in the Mystery of Baptism, one soul at a time…
The OT Holy Ones were far, far more meritorious than you and I will ever be on this earth, and they were much more saturated with the Holy Spirit - Our Brother Moses fairly shone with this Spirit, so saturated in Holiness was he coming off the Holy Mountain - Yet all of this was given to him by God from the outside, and was not a product of anything different inside, in the original core of his hypostasis, indeed in his person…
Yet the discipling is much the same - The Ways of God do not themselves change that much in this fallen condition in which we find ourselves standing and walking… Our job in this Newness of Life is to acquire the Holy Spirit and to therein BE the gods we were created to be - As Moses was a god to Pharaoh - Lest by becoming worldly, we find ourselves exploiting our brothers and sisters, and then find ourselves dying like anthropoids… (see Ps. 82)
This is why we are a “Royal Priesthood”, because a Priest is a dispenser of God’s Grace, and like the Blessed Virgin, we having received freely, freely then do we give… And it is all done clandestinely - An undercover, yes even a covert, operation, conducted in the Love of God, without earthly reward, and often at great earthly cost - The cost of discipleship…
For from the time of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the Heavens is suffering violence… And the violent are seizing it by force… And that force is the power of repentance, the denial of the self, and the taking up of one’s own cross of suffering and pain unto death, and following Christ unto the acquisition of the Holy Spirit, and the Joy of God in the Peace of Christ and the giving of good things…
You have this teaching already…
It is one of the many items in your bucket list…
It is buried somewhere in there…
Probably buried deep…
Nothing ever gets thrown away…
It just gets buried in a pile…
Along with tons of other ideas…
My favorite frustration with scholars…
Especially Lutherans scholars…
Making sure all ideas are mentioned…
And regarding inclusivity as understanding…
I mean, it is still suddenly quiet around here…
And yet I can hear the war being fought…
Gunfire and flares and wounded…
God Bless you, Hansen…
Wherever you are…
geo
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George720
Guest
The Old Testament Holy Ones relied on God too, and were saturated in His Grace, and this WAS their Salvation - Nothing they did justified them… When one of them encountered God, he immediately confessed: “I am but a sinful man…”
They were not a new creation…
But WE are…
THAT difference is EVERYTHING…
The Law but prepared the Way for Grace…
Yet the essential preparation is repentance from evil…
And the Pharisees were externally righteous…
Yet internally they were sinful…
See Psalm 82…
geo
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George720
Guest
I love the seriousness of your effort…
That you are no stranger to God…
And you are hearing something here…
And I am just the right guy…
To get you digging into your bucket…
I just pray that this has not been lost…
It is the basis of Christianity…
geo
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George720
Guest
The Old Testament Holy Ones relied on God too, and were saturated in His Grace, and this WAS their Salvation - Nothing they did justified them… When one of them encountered God, he immediately confessed: “I am but a sinful man…”
They were not a new creation encountering God…
But WE are…
Salvation in the OT and the NT both involve theosis…
But only in the NT does there exist God’s New Creation…
Where the person, the human hypostasis, [sub-stance], is re-created by rebirth into Christ as a member of His Holy Body, the Ekklesia, the Church…
There is a huge difference between bucket-list thinking and hierarchical thinking…
Hierarchical thinking involves etiological telesis…
Bucket thinkers just want to make sure nothing is omitted…
Arsenios
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George720
Guest
When I asked him about the Roman Catholic understanding of the difference between OT and NT Salvations, he began by pointing out that there was none of which he was aware… He said that “Roman Catholic” simply meant the (worship) Rite of the Latin Church… He followed this with a theological-philosophical-speculational dismissive… But he made it clear that any difference between the two Salvations was not a matter that the Roman Church has taken a position on…
For me, and by this time in his answer I was unable to dialog with him, I wanted to ask this: "IF there is no CLEAR difference between OT and NT Salvation, then WHY did Christ incarnate? And WHAT is our NEW CREATION in Christ? But I could not ask, for I had been turned off the mike…
So there it sits - A bucket list of differences with none of them being very defining…
geo
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fhansen
Guest
Geez George, your terminology sounds nearly Thomistic-for an Easterner!
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fhansen
Guest
You should ask him if he’s read the catechism. The difference is clearly described IMO.
I think you point to a real problem though. I left the Catholic Church, and therefore Christianity, partly because I didn’t understand the message (and partly because I was 17 and had other agendas), but returned years later after reading the bible-a lot- and finding Jer 31:32-34, probably via Hebrews 8 & 10. Because it spoke of a change, that God intended to make in us, whereas the faith as I’d experienced having it taught to me seemed basically legalistic-and dull-and strictly demanding.
The catechism, however, also acknowledges this change as do the sacraments, themselves, properly understood, as I’ve mentioned.
I think you point to a real problem though. I left the Catholic Church, and therefore Christianity, partly because I didn’t understand the message (and partly because I was 17 and had other agendas), but returned years later after reading the bible-a lot- and finding Jer 31:32-34, probably via Hebrews 8 & 10. Because it spoke of a change, that God intended to make in us, whereas the faith as I’d experienced having it taught to me seemed basically legalistic-and dull-and strictly demanding.
The catechism, however, also acknowledges this change as do the sacraments, themselves, properly understood, as I’ve mentioned.
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