Salvation - OT vs NT

[George720]

The mystery of salvation was fully revealed with Christ.

Catechism

528 The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Savior of the world. The great feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men ( magi ) from the East, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast at Cana in Galilee.212 In the magi, representatives of the neighboring pagan religions, the Gospel sees the first-fruits of the nations, who welcome the good news of salvation through the Incarnation. The magi’s coming to Jerusalem in order to pay homage to the king of the Jews shows that they seek in Israel, in the messianic light of the star of David, the one who will be king of the nations.213 Their coming means that pagans can discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and Savior of the world only by turning towards the Jews and receiving from them the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament.214 The Epiphany shows that “the full number of the nations” now takes its “place in the family of the patriarchs”, and acquires Israelitica dignitas 215 (is made “worthy of the heritage of Israel”).

707 Theophanies (manifestations of God) light up the way of the promise, from the patriarchs to Moses and from Joshua to the visions that inaugurated the missions of the great prophets. Christian tradition has always recognized that God’s Word allowed himself to be seen and heard in these theophanies, in which the cloud of the Holy Spirit both revealed him and concealed him in its shadow.

774 The Greek word mysterion was translated into Latin by two terms: mysterium and sacramentum . In later usage the term sacramentum emphasizes the visible sign of the hidden reality of salvation which was indicated by the term mysterium . In this sense, Christ himself is the mystery of salvation: "For there is no other mystery of God, except Christ."196 The saving work of his holy and sanctifying humanity is the sacrament of salvation, which is revealed and active in the Church’s sacraments (which the Eastern Churches also call “the holy mysteries”). The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body. The Church, then, both contains and communicates the invisible grace she signifies. It is in this analogical sense, that the Church is called a “sacrament.”>>>

If someone were to ask you: “Should I become Jewish or Christian in my faith? Both have Salvation in knowledge of God… Is there any particular reason why I should pursue the Christian Faith rather than the Jewish Faith?”

How do you reply?

Arsenios

 

[fhansen]

So you seem to be saying that knowledge of (knowing) God is Salvation…

The knowledge of God is a “big” topic. It’s the goal of seeking God’s face, a term used many times in the OT. It’s the object of faith but also inseparable from faith. In the west faith is considered to be a gift of grace that constitutes a dim foretaste of the Beatific Vision, which is the immediate knowledge of God. This knowledge is more that knowledge about God, but it’s knowledge of God. And the more one believes, or exercises their faith, the more one grows in this knowledge. And the more one grows in this knowledge of God the more one loves Him-it cannot be helped. And to love God with one’s whole heart, soul, mind, and strength is the ultimate in justice or perfection for man and is eternal life; ultimately the two, the knowledge of God and the love of God, are part and parcel of the same thing.

So if that is true then Salvation is the same in both the OT and the NT? I mean, David knew God, as did Moses, and Isaac, and Abraham, and on and on…

Yes, grace and the knowledge of God were by no means absent in the OT, but on a narrower and more specific scale it seems, given to some figures for God’s purposes. The time was not yet ripe; man was not yet ready on a large, common scale to receive the full revelation of God and His ineffable unconditional love for mankind. But, when the time becomes ripe, “In those days”:

"No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD." Jer 31:34

continued:

 

[fhansen]

What does the Christian Salvation add to the Judaic Salvation?

It includes more knowledge, for one thing, and clarifies and brings home knowledge previously revealed. If there was division within Judaism over whether or not an afterlife existed Jesus clearly demonstrated that it does. These are things man needs to know if he can achieve any kind of real peace. If we have a “distorted image of God”, as the RCC catechism teaches that man conceived of at the Fall, Jesus overcomes that. The distorted image is the God we tend to default to, and the one we may play ourselves when we abuse power over others. But the true God is not distant, angry, or aloof in His superiority, nor is He “jealous of His prerogatives”. He truly deserves the title “Abba”. Enmity comes from man, not Him. Jesus revealed the true face of the Father as never before. He showed a God who was willing to suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death on a cross in human flesh at the hands of His own creation, because of and in spite of our sin if that’s what it takes to convince us of His uncompromising lavish love for man. And then resurrect to prove that this love is eternal and that we can live and know it eternally as well. He demonstrated that God really exists, after all, while many religious people had merely paid Him lip service while really desiring the praise of man over the praise of God (John 12:43). And that this God is trustworthy and merciful and true and goodness itself and deserving of our faith, of our heeding, as opposed to Adam’s unbelief. Jesus demonstrated and praised humility over the pride that opposes God, and that God opposes. Jesus demonstrated and emphasized the need for mercy and compassion over burnt offerings and sacrifice, even as the OT had brought up this up in Hosea 6. Jesus told us that true righteousness comes from the inside, not the outside, which may well just cover a “white-washed tomb”. The Law per the OC, IOW, cannot possibly justify man . Only God can do that to the extent that man is in communion with Him. Jesus exposes and bypasses legalism and religiosity and introduces everyman directly to the real God. As we’re willing.

Jesus shows us that God’s true kingdom is not of this world, and promises worth fulfilling are spiritual and eternal rather than merely mundane and physical. Jesus lifts love to the highest value. No one revealed the face of God as Jesus did.

 

[Vico]

…
If someone were to ask you: “Should I become Jewish or Christian in my faith? Both have Salvation in knowledge of God… Is there any particular reason why I should pursue the Christian Faith rather than the Jewish Faith?”

How do you reply?

Arsenios

Without pressure and with respect for Judiasm, Catholics present the Catholic Church in light of it possessing the full means to salvation.

Catechism:

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

267 267 LR 8 § 2. [LG: Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium (21 November 1964)]
268 UR 3 § 5. [UR: Second Vatican Council, Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio (21 November 1964)]

Also from a Pontifical Council:

7. “In virtue of her divine mission, the Church” which is to be “the all-embracing means of salvation” in which alone “the fulness of the means of salvation can be obtained” (Unit. Red. 3); “must of her nature proclaim Jesus Christ to the world” (cf. Guidelines and Suggestions, I). Indeed we believe that is is through him that we go to the Father (cf. Jn. 14:6) “and this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent” (Jn 17:33).

Jesus affirms (ibid. 10:16) that “there shall be one flock and one shepherd”. Church and Judaism cannot then be seen as two parallel ways of salvation and the Church must witness to Christ as the Redeemer for all, “while maintaining the strictest respect for religious liberty in line with the teaching of the Second Vatican Council (Declaration Dignitatis Humanae)” (Guidelines and Suggestions, I).

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...pc_chrstuni_doc_19820306_jews-judaism_en.html

 

[George720]

@fhansen -

Thank-you for your post - fwiw, (which is not much), I do think you understand more about Salvation than most here by far - But I must tell you, my opinion of your knowledge plus $5 will get you no change back from Starbucks!

Your answer is what I pretty much expected when I decided to come here with the OP question… I wanted to see if there might be anyone here on CAF who might know the answer… Yours is the smoosh answer that talks a lot about Christian Salvation, that tells us much that is true, and yet is utterly and totally a shot in the dark by a blind man shooting blanks in a hot war… Forgive me - I mean no insult - The answer I am looking for I have sought on many forums, and with many Confessions, and many good apologists for the Latin Confession, and it indeed seems to be a specifically Western phenomenon - No one has the answer that the EOC has been offering for 2000 years… Yours is the closest I have seen - A shotgun coverage of just about all the relevant Salvation topics, issues and features… Yet I am looking for a sniper with the long-gun… The short-range blunderbuss is not going to get the job done…

And I crafted this question around the difference in Salvation between Moses - whose face was so lit up in the total saturation of God’s Grace, that he had to cover it from his people - and that of, say, Paul or Peter or John… No one seems to get the difference outside the EOC Communion… And yet Christ is recorded in Scripture as saying:

[Mat 11:11]
Verily I am saying to you:
Among those born of women
there hath not been raised up a greater
than John the Baptist:
But the least in the Kingdom of Heavens
is greater than he is.

This amen passage cries out for an answer…
An answer that should be on the lips of every Confessing Christian…
That should be so obvious, yet is so missed…
HOW can the least be greater than the greatest?
What is the difference in the two Salvations?
How can Ananias the Baptizer of Saul…
Be greater than John the Baptizer of Christ?

I do not seem to grow weary of asking this question…

geo

 

[George720]

@Vico wrote:
Without pressure and with respect for Judiasm,
Catholics present the Catholic Church in light
of it possessing the full means to salvation.

The question is the difference between Christian Salvation and Salvation in OT Judaism…

See my post above…

Your answer seems to be that it is a difference of degree of means…

I am looking for a difference in kind regarding the result of those means…

Is there a difference in kind between the two Salvations?

Or are they the same, just arrived at differently?

Arsenios

 

[Vico]

@Vico wrote:
Without pressure and with respect for Judiasm,
Catholics present the Catholic Church in light
of it possessing the full means to salvation.

The question is the difference between Christian Salvation and Salvation in OT Judaism…

See my post above…

Your answer seems to be that it is a difference of degree of means…

I am looking for a difference in kind regarding the result of those means…

Is there a difference in kind between the two Salvations?

Or are they the same, just arrived at differently?

Arsenios

If a person is saved in the end, then there are differences in the merits, thus in the glory in heaven. For those condemned, there is a difference in the demerits, thus in hell. Different amounts of temporal punishment may remain.

So, pass/fail may it be the same, but the devil is in the details. With the full means available it seems that there is a greater ability to attain merit and eliminate temporal punishments (e.g., through indulgences), and to receive an increase of sanctifying grace through the Catholic sacraments of the living. The Catholic Church offers penance so that even those with imperfect contrition can receive absolution for their serious sins. We do not know about that for Judiasm, except that there are certainly many justified souls before Christianity.

 

[fhansen]

My only answer is that he’s seen God, as had the biblical figures you mentioned. And others of us have also seen Him-even if only a glimpse (that’s all it takes)-and been changed by it-not all are blind such that the knowledge I speak of is not merely intellectual. But for that kind of vision to be mandatory for salvation wouldn’t be true in my understanding. And then believers are to be continuously transformed into His own image. Other than that IDK-but don’t leave us in suspense.

And, yes, I did shotgun things at some point-not knowing where you’ve been coming from with your questions.

 

[George720]

@Vico wrote:

If a person is saved in the end,
then there are differences in the merits, thus in the glory in heaven.
So, pass/fail may it be the same, but the devil is in the details .

So how is Ananias the Baptizer of Paul greater than Moses parting the Red Sea?

geo

 

[George720]

@fhansen wrote:

My only answer is that he’s seen God, as had the biblical figures you mentioned.
And others of us have also seen Him-even if only a glimpse (that’s all it takes)-
and been changed by it-
not all are blind such that the knowledge I speak of
is not merely intellectual.

You are facing the issue squarely, and a direct and personal encounter with God is indeed a core feature, because this is what is key to most, if not all, Saints, OT and NT… They ALL had this central feature of having had at least a glimpse…

We see Christ perhaps explaining it to Peter, when Peter confessed Him as the Son of God… “Flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but My Father in the Heavens…”. And He went on to say: “Upon this rock will I build my Ekklesia…”. So certain is this rock that He even named Simon bar Jonah to be Petros… We are indeed the Faith of God’s direct Revelation to man…

So that Salvation, OT and NT both have this feature, and we can say with certainty that such an encounter is common to both…

So what is their difference? Was not Moses SUPER-SATURATED with the Grace of God, with the Holy Spirit? And he spent 40 days on the Mountain with God? And he is less than Ananias the Baptizer of Paul? How can this be so???

But for that kind of vision to be mandatory for salvation wouldn’t be true in my understanding. And then believers are to be continuously transformed into His own image.

Nor is it mandatory in my understanding…
But for Sanctification, for the Saints?
The ones I know all have had it…
Thomas Aquinas had it,
and stopped writing the Summa…

Other than that IDK

A great answer - You are the first person I have encountered who even grasped this much of the question…

-but don’t leave us in suspense.

I am going to leave it hanging - You will be shocked, I should hope, at how simple it is, and how profound…

And, yes, I did shotgun things at some point-
not knowing where you’ve been coming from with your questions.

And a great confession too???

I am too blessed here!

What a Joy!

Thank-you!

geo

 

[Vico]

@Vico wrote:

If a person is saved in the end,
then there are differences in the merits, thus in the glory in heaven.
So, pass/fail may it be the same, but the devil is in the details .

We have no knowledge of the degree of merit, only that there are degrees of merit and demerit. Council of Florence, From the Bull Laetentur coeli" July 6, 1439:

[ De novissimis] It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by the worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church. And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another. Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds.

 

[George720]

geo asked:

So how is Ananias the Baptizer of Paul greater than Moses parting the Red Sea?

You replied:

We have no knowledge of the degree of merit,
only that there are degrees of merit and demerit.

[Mat 11:11]
Verily I say unto you,
Among them that are born of women
there hath not risen a greater than
John the Baptist:
notwithstanding
he that is least in the kingdom of heaven
is greater
than he.

Christ’s words, also found in Luke 7:28.

geo

 

[Vico]

geo asked:

So how is Ananias the Baptizer of Paul greater than Moses parting the Red Sea?

There’s that. Also the Virgin Mary.

 

[GiftofMercy]

So how is Ananias the Baptizer of Paul greater than Moses parting the Red Sea?

geo

Did you know it was God who parted the Red Sea? Not Moses. Did you know it was God who bid Ananias go to Saul , cure his blindness in the name of God, and then Baptise him in the name of God.

If you believe any differently , look to the rxample of Phillip, Peter and Simon the sorcerer, in Acts.

 

[George720]

@GiftofMercy wrote:

Did you know it was God who parted the Red Sea? Not Moses. Did you know it was God who bid Ananias go to Saul , cure his blindness in the name of God, and then Baptise him in the name of God.

Those matters were not in question - The reference was to show the OT-NT comparison, and the fact that Scripture records Christ saying that Ananias is greater than Moses… And the question then is in what way or how is Moses lesser than Ananias? Moses parted the Red Sea, and all Ananias did was baptize a persecutor of Christians… And yes, God did both… So why, in terms of the OP, did Christ say that the Greatest of the OT Saints is less than the least of the NT Christians?

If you believe any differently , look to the example of Phillip, Peter and Simon the sorcerer, in Acts.

Thank-you…

geo

 

[GiftofMercy]

and the fact that Scripture records Christ saying that Ananias is greater than Moses

Can you please quote that part of Scripture.

Moses parted the Red Sea,

Again, God parted the Red Sea for Moses. Moses did not part the Red Sea.

Ananias did was baptize a persecutor of Christians

What did Saul go on to do? Why was Saul the chosen vessel of God?

So why, in terms of the OP, did Christ say that the Greatest of the OT Saints is less than the least of the NT Christians?

Can you please quote where Christ says this in Scripture too

We can look at context then.

 

[fhansen]

Death entered the Kosmos through Adam’s sin, into which we all who are in Adam are born, and upon this death, all have sinned… This death is also physical… We understand Adam’s death as the darkening of the Nous…

I’m curious on this. What is the mechanism, why/how does sin enter with death? What does “upon this death, all have sinned…” mean?

In my understanding Adam’s death had most importantly to do with the death of his vital relationship with God, which then catapulted him into a state where he was essentially his own “god”: proud, presumably self-righteous now and in any case spiritually apart from God with sin inevitably resulting from this weakened and corrupted state of being for man.

 

[fhansen]

So how is Ananias the Baptizer of Paul greater than Moses parting the Red Sea?

What has occured to me earlier is that you’re getting at theosis, which, while emphasized more in the East, is not at all unCatholic.

 

[George720]

I really do not think Christ’s pronouncing of greater and lesser on the least and the greatest is a matter of relative merit… When the least in the Kingdom of the Heavens is greater than the greatest of the OT Prophets, Christ is not comparing meritorious actions earning Grace… He is instead, I should think, comparing Old Testament Salvation with New Testament Salvation…

And no one seems to know the difference, or even for sure if they do have a very essential difference…

God willing, if no one else wants to take a stab at it, maybe later today, I can open it up some more…

geo

 

[George720]

Death entered the Kosmos through Adam’s sin, into which we all who are in Adam are born, and upon this death, all have sinned… This death is also physical… We understand Adam’s death as the darkening of the Nous…

All that is true enough, but amounts to a bucket list of ingredients - We are born fallen, with our nous darkened - Dead by the standards of Divine Life, and we think we are alive… We do not KNOW Life until it is revealed to us by God, and God does not pass out those ‘tickets’ just willy nilly…

Adam did not die physically for a long time after he lost the life he remembered having had… Holy Tradition has him never leaving the Gates of Paradise after his expulsion therefrom…

You see, he turned away from God…
God is the source of Life…
The Serpent is the source of death…
Towards which he turned…

God granted Adam his decision…
God being Light…
Death being darkness…
Adam attained a darkened nous…

Satan won round one…

Getting clearer yet??

geo