'Salvation outside of the Church' Revisited

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**Have a nice weekend everyone and may God bless all of you unto salvation if He hasn’t done so already. **

I think I am in the wrong place after reading through more of the posts; my posts do not apply because the title of the thread/post or whatever it is called was misunderstood by myself. This has nothing to do with salvation outside of the “church” as I think of the church as the body of Christ, but rather this is about being outside the Catholic church, which I recognize as a religious affiliation like I would a baptist or Pentecoastal etc.

My apologies as it would seem I was “off topic”.
I will look further into a different thread/post and see if I can find a “better-fit”.

Thanks all!

Hold off any replies as I will delete this subscription; that term I have figured out…LOL
 
**Have a nice weekend everyone and may God bless all of you unto salvation if He hasn’t done so already. **

I think I am in the wrong place after reading through more of the posts; my posts do not apply because the title of the thread/post or whatever it is called was misunderstood by myself. This has nothing to do with salvation outside of the “church” as I think of the church as the body of Christ, but rather this is about being outside the Catholic church, which I recognize as a religious affiliation like I would a baptist or Pentecoastal etc.

My apologies as it would seem I was “off topic”.
I will look further into a different thread/post and see if I can find a “better-fit”.

Thanks all!

Hold off any replies as I will delete this subscription; that term I have figured out…LOL
A Gift,

No worries. This thread is about no salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, Catholics believe they are the one true Church founded by Christ, built upon Peter who was the first Pope with Apostolic succession to present day.

Most of the discussion on this thread has been about whether or not Vatican II changed the CC’s teaching regarding salvation. It’s really a huge topic, as you can see.

I hope you enjoy CAF. It’s a great forum. The exchange of ideas is really outstanding.

You can start a thread on whatever topic interests you; or just look through the current threads.

Hopefully, we’ll bump into each other again.

Peace and blessings to you on your journey, 🙂
Anna
 
Anna, there is good thread on Ask an Apologist today. I didn’t read through the entire link, however, I trust the Apologist did, In relates well to this thread.

Understood, its a time consuming understanding in this teaching which I believe originated from Cyprian in the early centuries.

I still read the encyclicals also as they are very time consuming. Admittedly No doubt that Pope Paul VI was a genuis and unfortuante he is not here to explain at length much of thinkng. Here we are left with Bl JP-II and Pope Benedict and all those who had studied in depth with them or around them, and through them.

Without a doubt the entire CCC must be read, a book in itself, and all the V-II encyclicals. I’ll assume you know any encyclical in on the Vatican sight

The fustration is understood however IMHO Vouthon, Portrait and others have elaborted well. I trust since Portrait started the thread he will keep an eye on it.

Peace my friend.
Gary,
That is a good idea. I’ve been looking through the Ask An Apologist threads on EENS.

I do think great information has been provided on this–our current thread. Vouthon has posted quite a few early quotes, though I haven’t responded to all of them.

I really think I have enough to go on. I need to do some reading on my own.

Peace and gratitude to all,
Anna
 
Hi Anna. You got me there. I thought we were talking about no Salvation outside of the CC and how the teaching has continued to become more and more clear in time.

I must be on a different page or something, I apologize. I know I have not been reading much of the thread this week. My Husband and I bought the house from hell 😃 and have been re-doing it, and the inspector is comming Monday to pass or fail it.

You know that show on TV on flipping houses. BELIEVE everything you see. We thought, in and out! WRONG! it became a TOTAL GUT JOB!

This Immaculate Heart of Mary, you got me there. I don’t know much about this:confused: But I promise next week when I have some time, I will find out what this is?

I have been a RC for 50 years now! Thats my whole life. And have no idea what it is. I know my Aunt was in something, and was buried in a brown gown or something when she died:confused: Maybe thats what you are talking about?

Anyhow, I have a meeting tommow in Church, and if Father isn’t too busy I will find out for you. But if it gets too involved I will ask him next week. Only because we are hoping to get in and out, so we can get to the house to be ready for Monday for the inspect.

But don’t worry I have Fathers CELL number:D But I promise I will find out for you what this organization truly is, and what it is about! Just give me a couple weeks okay.

Things are really crazy in my life at the moment. Actually now that I am thinking about it, I have to make PIES!😃 Yes ME, Make pies! for Ash Wed, so I when I drop them off I will ask the olders ladies at the Church.

But I wil get you the true facts. So hang low, enjoy the weekend and let me see what I can find out for you.

God Bless you Anna, and don’t quit asking questions!😃
Rinnie,
Sounds like a huge job with the house. So, no worries. Actually, I think I have all the information I need. 🙂

Have a great weekend. Don’t work too hard.

Peace,
Anna
 
“…It is false that we say to anyone that he is damned. To do so would be false to our general doctrine relating to sects outside the bosom of the Church. With respect to heretics we are persuaded that all of those who with sincerity remain in their errors, who through inculpable ignorance believe themselves in the way of salvation . . . are children of the Catholic Church. Such is the opinion of all divines from St. Augustine…”

- Nicolas-Sylvestre Bergier, (1715 – 1790), celebrated French Catholic theologian
Vouthon,
I appreciate all of the early quotes. Very helpful!

Peace,
Anna
 
Hi Anna,

Thanks for your acknowledgement. You can see the difference of thought between those who are Sola Scriptura and those who have maintained more of their roots with the Catholic Church.

I see the deposit of faith and the sacraments, along with the communion of saints, as par excellence of any set of beliefs professing to have the whole truth. I am a cradle Catholic and was taught very well by my father who, with my mother, chose to live a very simple life minus material goods prior to my birth. Our treasure was our Catholic faith. I would come home from a very progressive secular college, and see the votive candle light next to the face of the Sacred Heart of Jesus that was lit by my mother for me.

It was most profound to be in the Italian Capuchin missions, geographically at the antipode of my native residence, and go to an African community who not had Mass said there for awhile…come into the mud hut and see the rough wood altar table…with the same little picture of Jesus and another of Pope John XXIII, and to sit among the natives.

It is this beautiful common and same practice of faith…that is held together by…the Holy Father, Papa…this is the expression of the heart of our faith. We are family. It is good to see the Africans love Blessed Mother, and to realize with them she is the mother of all of us.

Mary can only bring us closer to Jesus, and into a more deeper and authentic life as His witness. Priests say the strongest Catholics are Marian. When devotees go so far as to use the term, ‘slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary’, that is a term often used by Montfort (St. Louis de Montfort)…but reading his disciplines…true devotion to Mary must bring us to Jesus or it is false. He also explains false devotions to Mary. When they use ‘slave’ they mean they want to annihilate themselves for Christ, and knowing the power of Mary…to make us more Christian, they want to be slaves to her…it is most intense emotional language…and in the Mystical Body of Christ…such language can set off alarms. My former provencial told me when he was in the seminary in the 1930’s, those who wanted to study Mariology through St. Montfort had to have a spiritual director guiding them because of the language.

As to the quotes by past popes…they are standing at the max of their God given authority…that there is no other belief system out there that can bring you to God, and subsequently to heaven…in the face of much impending dismantling of Christian unity and growing atheistic secularization. Many believe the dismantling of Christianity began with Luther, albeit the need for the Church to have reform.

But look at our country…Christianity is the greatest block to oppose secular atheism, but it is practically useless because it is so fragmented…We break up as a Church, we allow the devil to reign and many souls lost…not only to eternal life but to even having a decent life today. I live in a state that just put a sex mandate together several years ago that is targeting the sexualization of children as young as 5, and opposes moral psychology…by encouraging minors to act on their impulses.

When a society becomes obsessed with sex, it has lost its faith in God, a quote by Cardinal Manning from England.

So the Holy Father was defending the integrity of faith and the will of God and the good of society by defending the Church. You come to a point that all the answers in the world won’t work.

You have to take one step Anna, just one step more towards the Catholic Church, and just that one small step of faith could bring you answer and peace to your soul. I affirm everyone’s perception of you…You really shine here on CAF!!!
 
Salvation outside of the Catholic Church will surely and truely be by God’s Grace,

And not by any understanding of protestant philosophy or interpretation of the same.

If and when God grants salvation to anyone outside the Catholic Church - it won’t be an “a - ha” moment as in “see, I told you, you don’t need the Eucharist and Confession and reverence and devotion to the Blessed Mother"to be saved.”

It will be God having mercy on your soul and your being completely oblivious to His instruments of salvation.

So…visit and re-visit this subject all you want- I have to believe that God is so merciful and so good that He might even overlook our ignorance of His Church.
 
Perro…

You reflect some of my convictions…that God alone can judge. He is all Merciful and all Just.

What we are called to do is believe and live out our faith.
 
. . . I see the deposit of faith and the sacraments, along with the communion of saints, as par excellence of any set of beliefs professing to have the whole truth. . . . So the Holy Father was defending the integrity of faith and the will of God and the good of society by defending the Church. You come to a point that all the answers in the world won’t work.

You have to take one step Anna, just one step more towards the Catholic Church, and just that one small step of faith could bring you answer and peace to your soul. . . .
KathleenGee,
I appreciate every word you have written and your testament to the Catholic faith.

I have known you and SteveVH for a long time. The witness of faithful Catholics never goes unnoticed.

Peace be with you, dear sister,
Anna
 
Thanks, Anna…all you search for brings much fruit…you will bring more to others…

My point is that some times we get to a wall…and then the best is recognize a movement in a certain direction…and then take a step into it …or on it?..Like Peter walking on the water?
 
My dear brothers and sisters 🙂

Just to remind everyone that invincible ignorance is throughly biblical:

“…I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me…This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth…For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe…”

- (1 Timothy 1:13.2:4:10)

From this divinely revealed book of Sacred Scripture we learn that:
  • God is merciful to those who act “ignorantly in unbelief”
  • When Paul had been acting “ignorantly” and persecuting Christians he had been fully aware of their existence and basic teachings; demonstrating that invincible ignorance is not to do with having “heard” the Gospel but having “understood” it on a personal level and realized that is true and necessary for salvation
  • God is the Saviour of “All people” and get this part, “especially of those who believe” - but note NOT “ONLY”!
Other passages:

“…That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. But one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating…”

- (Luke 12:47-48)

“…Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, commits sin…”
  • (James 4:17)
[The implication being, of course, that sin is not committed by someone who fails to do the right thing out of ignorance]
 
My dear brothers and sisters in Christ 🙂

Now that we have demonstrated the biblical foundations of “invincible ignorance”, let us now proceed to question in some more depth precisely what kind of mental disposition qualifies as “invincibly” ignorant.

First of all we must bear in mind Blessed Pope Pius IX’s statement that:

“…Who would arrogate so much to himself, as to be able to designate the limits of this kind of ignorance, due to the reason and variety of peoples, regions, natural dispositions, and a great many other things?..”

- Blessed Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadam

Pius resolutely refuses to set definitive limits to the application of “invincible ignorance”. To this end we will not set limits since we can never fully understand the underlying psychological, social, moral or even physical factors which influence people. We must work on and live in the hope that everyone outside the faith - either who have been brought up Christian and left or simply have never been Catholic - are judged by God as being, at least on some level, invincibly ignorant.

“…The barbarians are not bound to believe from the first announcement of the Christian faith, in the sense of sinning mortally by not believing due to this alone: because it is merely announced and proposed to them that the true religion is Christian, and that Christ is the savior and redeemer of the world, without miracles or any other proofs or arguments…it is not sufficiently clear to me that the Christian faith has thus far been proposed and announced to the barbarians so as to obligate them to believe it… It does not appear that the Christian religion has been preached to them suitably and piously, so as to obligate acquiescence…”

- Francisco de Vitoria (ca. 1492-1546), De Indis (On the Indies), 1539 [Roman Catholic philosopher, theologian and jurist]

“…The invincibly ignorant are not obliged to believe unless the faith is fully presented and explained to them by suitable ministers. A great many unbelievers are excused from accepting the faith for a long time and perhaps for their whole lifetime, no matter how long it lasts, so long as they see the extremely corrupt and detestable conduct of the Christians…”

- Bartolomé de las Casas (c. 1484–1566) Catholic Bishop, abolitionist and theologian

Stephen Bullivant comments on these two passages:

“…Taking the writings of Vitoria and Las Casas together, it is possible to identify from them three interrelated reasons why invincible ignorance may perdure after someone has not only heard of Christ and the Church, but has perhaps even been (objectively) evangelized. The first reason is that the proclamation itself may be intrinsically inadequate. At its most extreme, the simple assertion of the mere existence of Christ or the Church is not sufficiently persuasive to demand assent. The second reason is that certain social factors, while extrinsic to the proclamation itself, may undermine its claims to authority. (This “sociological” point, which Las Casas only hints at, will be explained in more detail below.) And the third reason–which is, properly speaking, a notably conspicuous example of the second–recognizes that the misconduct of Christians (acting either singularly or collectively) may so defame Christianity as to prolong invincible ignorance over a long period of time, and perhaps indefinitely…”

And that is only the doctrine as it stood in the 1500s! It has developed considerably since then (thus widening in scope). Vatican II even took into consideration atheists - most of whom came from a Christian background and this has been further developed since by the Magisterium.

But I’ll get to that later 😉
 
My dear brothers and sisters 🙂

Just to remind everyone that invincible ignorance is throughly biblical:

“…I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me…This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth…For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe…” . .
Vouthon;8979826:
My dear brothers and sisters in Christ 🙂

Now that we have demonstrated the biblical foundations of “invincible ignorance”, let us now proceed to question in some more depth precisely what kind of mental disposition qualifies as “invincibly” ignorant.

First of all we must bear in mind Blessed Pope Pius IX’s statement that:

“…Who would arrogate so much to himself, as to be able to designate the limits of this kind of ignorance, due to the reason and variety of peoples, regions, natural dispositions, and a great many other things?..” . . .
Vouthon,

You brought so much to this discussion. I really appreciate all your hard work. It has certainly given me much to ponder.

Thank you!
Anna
 
Vouthon,

You brought so much to this discussion. I really appreciate all your hard work. It has certainly given me much to ponder.

Thank you!
Anna
The question as to a possible reversal of the “no salvation outside the Church” doctrine is one of the few stumbling blocks standing in between yours truly and Catholicism, the others being the universal jurisdiction and infallibility of the pope. (The seeming impossibility thus far of settling my “Catholic or Eastern Orthodox?” dilemma has nearly destroyed my faith as of late, but it seems to be returning… slowly but surely.)

I must follow Anna Scott’s example and thank Vouthon for his numerous highly intriguing contributions.
 
. . . Thank you also, for taking seriously the concerns of those who stumble over the idea that the CC has not changed the teaching about the meaning of EENS. I am such a one—not with a hardened obstinacy, but with a genuine inability to see how the pre-Vatican II teaching can be reconciled withe the post-Vatican II teaching.

I had never heard of EENS before coming across it here at CAF about a year ago. Prior to that, though, I was well aware of the current CCC teaching on this subject. During the last year, off and on, I’ve tried to research the subject, as well as ocassionally talk about it with a few Catholics I know from another forum, whom I respect.

And, well, I haven’t made any headway–it still looks clearly to me (and, obviously, to others, both Catholic and non-Catholic), that the teaching has fundamentally changed. Don’t misunderstand me; I think the current CCC handles the topic with clarity and love…it just doesn’t seem to line up with prior teaching to me, though.

Here is a link to Mortalium Animos from 1928, in the Vatican archives. Please read the whole document. Paragraph 11, which seems very clear, is my main stumbling block. . . .
AbideWithMe,

I can relate, because it is the same for me. I have been involved in a number of discussions here re EENS. There was a point when I thought I understood how views of the past are reconciled with Vatican II. Sadly, it didn’t take. 😊 I find myself back at square one.

Since there are only a few serious stumbling blocks to my acceptance of Catholicism, the apparent inconsistencies of EENS being one of them; it’s important for me to continue to consider how past teachings of the CC are consistent with current teachings.

Peace,
Anna
The question as to a possible reversal of the “no salvation outside the Church” doctrine is one of the few stumbling blocks standing in between yours truly and Catholicism, the others being the universal jurisdiction and infallibility of the pope. (The seeming impossibility thus far of settling my “Catholic or Eastern Orthodox?” dilemma has nearly destroyed my faith as of late, but it seems to be returning… slowly but surely.) . . . .
Trebor135,

There are several of us dealing with similar issues in considering Catholicism. The Catholics on this thread did a great job of providing information and insight—and with great patience, I might add (I can try the patience of a Saint sometimes.)

I’m glad to hear your faith is returning. I can relate, because it’s easy for me to get lost in the issues and forget to keep my eyes on Christ and remain faithful in prayer. I struggle with the knowledge aspect vs. the spiritual aspect. But. . . .our Lord is faithful and will send someone along to remind me to pray.

Peace and blessings to you on your journey, 🙂
Anna
 
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ 🙂

I thank you for taking the time to read my contributions Anna Scott and Trebor and I am very appreciative of the fact that, at least on some level, you have both found them useful - not to mention hopefully fruitful to your spiritual journey, wherever the dictates of conscience eventually lead you both.

I would like to continue my analysis of magisterial and theological Catholic teachings on salvation prior to Vatican II. In this regard I’m going to look at two texts:
  1. The Catechism of St Pope Pius X published in 1908. It was a short text issued by Pope Pius X with questions and answers regarding the essentials of Christian faith - with the intention of it being a source that all Catholic faithful could relate to and understand.
  2. The Baltimore Catechism published in 1885 and also passages from The Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics, orginally published in 1891 by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead.
These are both illuminating magisterial texts. They both have their time-bound effects - since the doctrine has developed since then - but it is clearly present in both.

So without further ado let us look first to Pope Pius X’s Catechism:

"…27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?

A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation



16 Q: Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A: Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire…"

- Pope St Pius X, Catechism (1910)

Now the Baltimore Catechism. It focuses mainly on Protestants (rather than non-Christians, although parts of it can be applied to them too). It has a few errors relating to certain matters, but generally, its a faithful compilation of the nineteenth century Church’s teaching (In diluted, layman’s terms):

"…**121. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved**. *(Baltimore Catechism) *

Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven…Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never—even in the past—had the slightest doubt of that fact—what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience…If, then, we found a Protestant who never…had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

…All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church…"

- The Baltimore Catechism (1885); and passages from The Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics published in 1891

Protestants are validly baptized, and so are children of the Catholic Church (members) - since as Joan of Arc said (and she is quoted in the modern Catechism): “About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter”. Christ and his Mystical Body are one and the same, such that Protestants who are validly baptized, in whatever denomination, are baptized into the Catholic Church. And as for non-Christians, as Pope St Pius X explained, they are baptized into the Church by implicit (unconcious desire) through faithfully following the dictates of their own conscience and striving to follow the will of God as it is known to them through that conscience. And so as the Baltimore Catechism explains, all people who are rightly baptized - whether as non-Catholic Christians or through implicit desire (if they are non-Christians) are “are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess”, that is no matter what religion they have been brought up in.

Much love in Christ 👍
 
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ 🙂

I thank you for taking the time to read my contributions Anna Scott and Trebor and I am very appreciative of the fact that, at least on some level, you have both found them useful - not to mention hopefully fruitful to your spiritual journey, wherever the dictates of conscience eventually lead you both.

I would like to continue my analysis of magisterial and theological Catholic teachings on salvation prior to Vatican II. In this regard I’m going to look at two texts: . . . .
Vouthon,

Thank you once again. These early quotes really do help. Prior to this thread, I was under the impression that the idea of invincible ignorance was a fairly recent idea in the Catholic Church, primarily expounded upon in Vatican II.

You’ve brought past ages of the Church to life for me. Thank you so much!

Peace to you, my brother,
Anna
 
Vouthon----

As Anna has said, you really have done good work on this thread. I’m way behind on reading the posts since I haven’t been home much over the last few days; but in skimming over the pages I can see you’ve dug up some helpful information. Thanks.

Anna has also spoken of how we can get so caught up in these theological issues that it takes away from our simple devotional time. That’s been a problem for me periodically. Before starting to look more deeply into Catholicism and Orthodoxy a little more than a year ago, I was struggling with my attitude towards God in regards to friends who had died in horrifically painful ways. It seems in this life we will get no complete answers to why such things happen. I’ve tried to remain aware, as I learn more about Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that it can be a temptation for me to get all caught up and distracted by these intellectual inquiries into the other forms of Christianity, and avoid facing God more directedly with my pain, confusion, questions, and messier emotions in regards to my friends’ nightmarish deaths.

So, anyway, not to derail this thread, I’m glad Anna has said something about remembering to pray. And I hoped it would be appropriate here (above) for me to throw in a bit of personal information, Vouthon, to give some background on why I tend to be slow in following up on threads I’m part of----I’m listening and following along, and appreciative of the work going into the answers, but I’m also needing to give priority to quiet time in prayer. Mortalium Animos can wait.
 
. . . .Anna has also spoken of how we can get so caught up in these theological issues that it takes away from our simple devotional time. That’s been a problem for me periodically. Before starting to look more deeply into Catholicism and Orthodoxy a little more than a year ago, I was struggling with my attitude towards God in regards to friends who had died in horrifically painful ways. It seems in this life we will get no complete answers to why such things happen. I’ve tried to remain aware, as I learn more about Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that it can be a temptation for me to get all caught up and distracted by these intellectual inquiries into the other forms of Christianity, and avoid facing God more directedly with my pain, confusion, questions, and messier emotions in regards to my friends’ nightmarish deaths. . . .
AbideWithMe,
I am sorry for all you are going through and for the loss of friends who suffered so. I think you have a great deal of insight to recognize that sometimes intellectual inquires can be a distraction. I suppose there really is a season for everything. Sometimes, we just need to spend time in prayer and listen to the voice of God.

I have realized reading Holy Scripture and meditating upon the Word of God is very different from searching the Scriptures for a discussion or debate situation.

Sounds like you are doing what you need to do.

I pray God will bless you with peace and quiet time in His presence. :signofcross:
Anna
 
We’re talking about EENS and I gave the example of The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Here is more:
(emphasis is mine)

If this is such an issue for devoted Catholics; imagine how much more difficult it is for non-Catholics to believe that the teachings of the CC have not changed re EENS. This is really the only point I’m trying to make, by quoting The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Peace,
Anna
Dear Anna Scott,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well and that you had a most enjoyable weekend.

Forgive me, my dear sister, for going back to one of your earlier posts, but I think I may be able to explain the position of the followers of Fr. Feeney, and other extreme radical traditionalists, who contend than unless a man is a fully-fledged, baptized member of the Church, then he cannot be saved.

Father Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for his stance on EENS, but rather for his disobedience to Rome. He refused to meet with the Pope when asked to do so to explain his irregular position.

Whilst Fr. Feeney’s perspective regarding EENS is completely erroneous, it is, nevertheless, wholly legitimate within the bounds of the Church. Radical traditionalists, such as the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Still River, Massachusetts, US, hold to a very rigid interpretation of the EENS but, so I am given to understand, they are completely reconciled with Rome. Apparently, I have also read that they are quite a wonderful community of Brothers and Sisters, who are jolly joyful and who love Christ and His Church.

Having said that, dear sister, it would be a grave mistake for us to assume that the acceptance or toleration of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart is tantamount to acceptance of the erroneous teaching of Fr. Feeney on EENS. Mr. Keating, the founder of *Catholic *Answers, says this in a news letter:

“Ordered to stop teaching his interpretation (of EENS), Feeney refused and was excommunicated, not technically for teaching heresy but for disobedience. He was reconciled to the Church before his death, and the excommunication was lifted. Some of his followers have tried to construe the reconconciliation as a Vatican affirmation of Feeney’s theology, but since the excommunication did not extend beyond the matter of obedience, the lifting did not extend any further”

Even Cantate Domino, does not declare that baptism and explicit faith are always and absolutely essential for salvation. Indeed, Pope Pius XII, via the Holy Office, said that Fr. Feeney was in error. In its letter to Archbishop Cushing it says, “faith that leads to salvation need not always be explicit” (emphasis mine).

Hope that is of use to you, dear sister.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
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