Salvation requires belief in Mary's Perpetual VIRGINITY?

[Mannyfit75]

Hey Manny… Breathe my man, breathe… I don’t think that Agnos was trying to be fasicious. The question was posed that if Mary and Joseph DID consumate the marriage then there would be children mentioned when they went to Jeruselum. I think he was just wanted to offer a suggestion as to why.

I am not sure what brought out such a harsh response to suggesting that Joseph may have been barren because it certainly is nothing to be ashamed of nor is it something that is insulting to say to someone. While it is an issue of a personal nature I don’t think he meant it in an insulting way. I certainly wasn’t offended by it and it didn’t even phase me until you blew up about it. I guess some people are a little more sensitive to this than I am… But I really don’t think he meant any harm by it.

I see him as not at least trying to learn or understand. He gave us the Doctrinal dance. :dancing:

But see, it doesn’t make clear sense. Satan was never specifically after Mary. He was only after the Christ Child. Harrod sent his soldiers to kill the children, not the mothers. In Revelation the dragon went specifically after the woman. This makes more sense if you say that the woman in Revelation is the Jewish Nation. The crown of twelve stars represent the twelve tribes of Israel and it bore the Christ Child. Satan has been after the Jewish Nation since the beginning and still is after it today.

I have no disagreement that the woman is Israel, or the Church. The CC interprets the woman clothed with sun as three representation.

1. Church.
2. Israel.
3. Mary.

All three interpretation is** correct**.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I see him as not at least trying to learn or understand. He gave us the Doctrinal dance. :dancing:

But we must always view it as if they are trying to learn, or at least that God is wanting them to hear something.

I have no disagreement that the woman is Israel, or the Church. The CC interprets the woman clothed with sun as three representation.

1. Church.
2. Israel.
3. Mary.

All three interpretation is** correct**.

There just isn’t enough evidence to support the woman being Mary. The first two fit PERFECTLY in every fashion and twist of the vision. There are some that don’t fit so perfectly with Mary.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The bible indicates that followers of Christ ARE ALL saints. So these bowls would contain ALL prayers that we have all prayed.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

There just isn’t enough evidence to support the woman being Mary. The first two fit PERFECTLY in every fashion and twist of the vision. There are some that don’t fit so perfectly with Mary.

Explain, please.

 

[Mannyfit75]

There just isn’t enough evidence to support the woman being Mary. The first two fit PERFECTLY in every fashion and twist of the vision. There are some that don’t fit so perfectly with Mary.

It is for me and makes theology sense and logical.

How does it twist? I interpret the woman as Mary because of One factor of the passage. The male child is identified as Jesus Christ. Who is the only woman who gave birth to Jesus? Mary. To take Mary out that she isn’t the woman in Revelation would also have to deny the child as Jesus.

Unless you can convince me that the Male child is not Jesus then I would not ID the woman as Mary. It is Jesus who give me the conclusion that the woman in Revelation 12:1-5 is Mary.

 

[swariffin]

So the Catholics who deny revealed truths which the Catholic Church believed for over 2,000 yrs such as the perpetual virginity is not required for salvation? By this premise, the so called Catholics who voted no lied to themselves when they profess the Nicene Creed. “We Believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…” Woah. So they have deceived themselves like those who believe Abortion is morally acceptible for cases of rape and incest?

I don’t know about you. But anything Catholic who denies all the teaching of the Catholic Church teaches especially the Perpetual Virginity either lacks proper Catechesis of the Faith or are just pure ignorant Catholics who don’t know any better.

My position is very clear. I believe in One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, whom Jesus Christ is the Head. I believe everything that the Holy Mother Church teaches especially she speaks on matters of Faith and Morals.

Dear Mannyfit and AgnosTheist,

Wait a minute please. The topic of this thread is Salvation requires belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, OR Catholics are required to believe Salvation and Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? As a Catholic, I do belief in Salvation (in Jesus) and I do believe Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. But, Belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity is nothing to do with Salvation. Why do we have to go in-depth about Mary’s perpetual virginity, and did not touch the issue about salvation? Why we have to go further about praying to the saints, papal ifallibility, etc.? So, any discussion about Mary’s perpetual virginity should be linked to the salvation issue.

My personal advice to you Mannyfit. Please calm down. You are in the most difficult and stressful position over there in Iraq, compared to most of us here in this forum. Visiting this forum, I hope is some sort of relaxation for your benefit. I hope this forum will not add another pressure for you. I do admire your postings not only in this thread, but in other threads as well.

 

[Singinbeauty]

It is for me and makes theology sense and logical.

That’s great. If it makes sense to you, more power to ya.

How does it twist? I interpret the woman as Mary because of One factor of the passage. The male child is identified as Jesus Christ. Who is the only woman who gave birth to Jesus? Mary. To take Mary out that she isn’t the woman in Revelation would also have to deny the child as Jesus.

But the woman giving birth to the child is just about the ONLY thing that connects Mary to this vision.

The crown indicates that she has authority or reigns over the twelve stars. Mary did not reign over anything. BUT if this were the Church, this would indicate the twelve apostles or Isreal has the twelve tribes. What ‘twelve’ does Mary have? The twelve apostles didn’t report to her nor did she have anything to do with who was selected. I don’t see evidence that the twelve went to Mary for guidence either. So what twelve did she have?

The dragon chased the woman. As I said above, this represents the battle between the Church AND Isreal but not Mary. Satan did not specifically chase her through the desert nor did she stay in the desert where she was taken care of for 1,260 days (or approximately 40 years… hmmm sound familiar?), but Isreal was. The dragon spewed water to envelope the woman. He did the same thing to the jews trying to escape Egypt but the earth and God helped them through it. The Church is constantly under attack from Satan and is chased daily. Our rest has not come yet…

Unless you can convince me that the Male child is not Jesus then I would not ID the woman as Mary. It is Jesus who give me the conclusion that the woman in Revelation 12:1-5 is Mary.

I would never say that the Man Child is not Christ for it can be no other BUT Mary gave birth to Him here on earth, but that is about the only thing that makes sense in this vision.

 

[jmcrae]

That’s great. If it makes sense to you, more power to ya.

But the woman giving birth to the child is just about the ONLY thing that connects Mary to this vision.

The crown indicates that she has authority or reigns over the twelve stars. Mary did not reign over anything. BUT if this were the Church, this would indicate the twelve apostles or Isreal has the twelve tribes. What ‘twelve’ does Mary have? The twelve apostles didn’t report to her nor did she have anything to do with who was selected. I don’t see evidence that the twelve went to Mary for guidence either. So what twelve did she have?

The dragon chased the woman. As I said above, this represents the battle between the Church AND Isreal but not Mary. Satan did not specifically chase her through the desert nor did she stay in the desert where she was taken care of for 1,260 days (or approximately 40 years… hmmm sound familiar?),

Actually, closer to 3.45 years, or perhaps 4 years on the Jewish calendar - which makes sense because Mary and Joseph took Jesus to Egypt (the desert) while “that devil” Herod was searching for Jesus to kill Him.

but Israel was.

The life of Mary and Jesus actually has many parallels to the history of Israel, and also to the experience of the Church.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Actually, closer to 3.45 years, or perhaps 4 years on the Jewish calendar - which makes sense because Mary and Joseph took Jesus to Egypt (the desert) while “that devil” Herod was searching for Jesus to kill Him.

The life of Mary and Jesus actually has many parallels to the history of Israel, and also to the experience of the Church.

I always admit when I stand corrected… I was never any good with math! Thank you…

BUT Herrod chased the child not Mary. In fact, he didn’t even chase the child so much as killed every child under two hoping he would get the baby king in the process…

 

[SyCarl]

I always admit when I stand corrected… I was never any good with math! Thank you…

BUT Herrod chased the child not Mary. In fact, he didn’t even chase the child so much as killed every child under two hoping he would get the baby king in the process…

Actually 3.5 years of 30 day months. This fits with the 42 month and time, times and half a time in the rest of Revelation.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

I always admit when I stand corrected… I was never any good with math! Thank you…

BUT Herrod chased the child not Mary. In fact, he didn’t even chase the child so much as killed every child under two hoping he would get the baby king in the process…

When the angel came to Joseph he said to “arise and take the child AND his mother” If Mary was not endangered the angel would not have mectioned her.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

The crown indicates that she has authority or reigns over the twelve stars. Mary did not reign over anything. BUT if this were the Church, this would indicate the twelve apostles or Isreal has the twelve tribes. What ‘twelve’ does Mary have? The twelve apostles didn’t report to her nor did she have anything to do with who was selected. I don’t see evidence that the twelve went to Mary for guidence either. So what twelve did she have?

Mary is made our mother by Jesus at the cross. Therefore the mother of the twleve disiciples and the mother of the twleve tribes of Isreal. Mary is also the new Eve, who was the biological first mother of the twelve tribes. Hence the following verses of Revelation where the dragon sets forth to make war on the rest of her offspring.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Mary is made our mother by Jesus at the cross. Therefore the mother of the twleve disiciples and the mother of the twleve tribes of Isreal. Mary is also the new Eve, who was the biological first mother of the twelve tribes. Hence the following verses of Revelation where the dragon sets forth to make war on the rest of her offspring.

He addressed ONE disciple. Not the whole group.
John 19:25-27:

25 Standing near the cross were Jesus’ mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary (the wife of Clopas), and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother standing there beside the disciple he loved, he said to her, “Dear woman, here is your son.” 27 And he said to this disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from then on this disciple took her into his home.

Notice He did not address everyone, just His mother and His disciple. He was following Jewish custom, making sure that His mother was taken care of after His death.

But, we digress. If you want to open a new thread let me know and I will join!

 

[jmcrae]

He addressed ONE disciple. Not the whole group.

Notice He did not address everyone, just His mother and His disciple. He was following Jewish custom, making sure that His mother was taken care of after His death.

But, we digress. If you want to open a new thread let me know and I will join!

There is a double meaning in that passage: “the disciple whom Jesus loved” stands for John Zebedee, but it also stands for you and me, and everyone else who loves Jesus - Jesus was giving His mother not only to John for her care and protection, but to all believing Christians, as well - He was making Himself to be our brother, and thus making God the Father to be our Father, in that moment.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Did you ever actually ask Him to?

numerous times

There is a double meaning in that passage: “the disciple whom Jesus loved” stands for John Zebedee, but it also stands for you and me, and everyone else who loves Jesus - Jesus was giving His mother not only to John for her care and protection, but to all believing Christians, as well - He was making Himself to be our brother, and thus making God the Father to be our Father, in that moment.

so its mainly a matter of opinion.

i realized, if these beliefs about mary are so crucial then why were they not mentioned in any of the epistles? mary herself was last mentioned in the first chapter of Acts. nothing special. nobody called her ‘mother’.

 

[Mannyfit75]

When the angel came to Joseph he said to “arise and take the child AND his mother” If Mary was not endangered the angel would not have mectioned her.

Well, said. I was going to refute SinginBeauty’s questions but all of them have been answered. No need to repeat the same answers more than once.

 

[AgnosTheist]

If Mary was not endangered the angel would not have mectioned her.

Even if mary was not endangered the married couple should not be separated simply because only the boy was targeted. besides, the child needs his mum.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The life of Mary and Jesus actually has many parallels to the history of Israel

such as?

 

[LilyM]

mary herself was last mentioned in the first chapter of Acts. nothing special. nobody called her ‘mother’.

Actually they did - remember all 120 present with Mary and the Apostles were called Jesus’ ‘brothers’. If they all were His brothers then of necessity the writer of Acts is calling Mary their mother.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Even if mary was not endangered the married couple should not be separated simply because only the boy was targeted. besides, the child needs his mum.

I don’t belive the angel would have taken Joseph for a fool. If he had only said “Take the child” Mary would have come along anyway. However the angel tells Joseph to take BOTH of them. Case and point when God spoke to Abraham he told him to go forth to the land he will reveal unto him. God makes no mection Sarai, Lot, Tereh, etc, however they all went with Abraham.