Salvation Through Mary?

[Tom]

Let’s start a new thread, “Mary for Protestants”, no fighting or name calling just information

 

[misericordie]

Non devotion to the Mother of God, is a sure road to heresy. Almost all heretics begin their heresy by removing mary from their lives.

PRAY THE DAILY ROSARY, USE THE BROWN SCAPULAR.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

misericordie:

What is according to you the real meaning of co-redemptrix?? Mary is in fact not only Mediatrix of all graces=as Vatican II said in Lumen Gentium, but rather, as many theologians have said she is the Co-Redemptrix. I hope the Pope proclaims this dogma, there are millions of signatures that have gone out to the pope on this and I have heard he will proclaim that dogma, but no one knows when. Many eminent theologians favor it. Here are a few: Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Arinze’, Cardinal Gagnon of Canada, and also the late Luigi Cardianal Chiapi, O.P. who was the Pope’s persoanl theologian, and one of the drafters of the New Catechism. Many many others too. A great group supporting all this too is the VOX POPULI group.
And who wants to make Mary the 4th person of the trinity. That’s a hypothesis that many who despise any sort of Marian devotion promote to push her to the side. They believe Christ will get jeolous if we pray to His Mother. It is amazing how much the protestant ideas on Mary has made its way into certain sectors of the Catholic Church in the USA, certain Catholics here.
The Church in no way wants to make Mary the 4th person of the Trinity, but neither does she want mary thrown to the side a something which just gets in the way of God. That would be diabolical.
The OFFICIAL teachings of the Church on the Blessed Virgin Mary is found in a great way in the NEW Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Devotion to Mary=Catholic, non-devotion to Mary=non-catholic

“Non-devotion to Mary = non-Catholic” ?​

What does that make St. Paul, who never so much as names her ?

We don’t have to be devoted to her - we do have to worship Christ.

Marian devotion - optional
Total adoration of Christ - absolutely essential

To say otherwise, is to imply that she is God; because it implies that the creature is as important as the Creator. As though God were not infinitely important, and all creatures, nothing whatever in comparison. ##

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

hermit:

Really, isn’t this carrying the Mary bit a little too far. Honor and revere Mary as the Mother of Jesus by all means. However this latest nonsense of co-redemptrix and fourth member of the Trinity is making Jesus a second class citizen.

I understand why you may be confused with the “co”, but it is nothing heretical and it is not suggesting that Mary is on an equal footing as Jesus. Really, does a co-pilot land the plane himself? No, he just helps the pilot land it.

 

[tuopaolo]

Juxtaposer:

I think the idea is heretical, but apparently popes throughout history didn’t.

Then maybe you should pray to God for the humility and grace to be able to see how you might be wrong and the popes throughout history might be right

That’s the solution to all our intellectual problems and emotional problems. Turn to God and ask for more humility and docility to Catholic tradition, teaching of popes and saints. When you see something unfamiliar or strange instead of thinking “This is so wrong! How could they teach this?” think instead “Wow! It looks like my previous thinking was incomplete or defective. I will ask God for the grace to teach me all of His ways and all of the beautiful truths that He has revealed and given and ask the Holy Spirit to help me appreciate all the wonderful and marvelous things that God has done for Mary and done through Mary and done in Mary.”

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

tuopaolo:

Then maybe you should pray to God for the humility and grace to be able to see how you might be wrong and the popes throughout history might be right

That’s the solution to all our intellectual problems and emotional problems. Turn to God and ask for more humility and docility to Catholic tradition, teaching of popes and saints. When you see something unfamiliar or strange instead of thinking “This is so wrong! How could they teach this?” think instead “Wow! It looks like my previous thinking was incomplete or defective. I will ask God for the grace to teach me all of His ways and all of the beautiful truths that He has revealed and given and ask the Holy Spirit to help me appreciate all the wonderful and marvelous things that God has done for Mary and done through Mary and done in Mary.”

Exactly.

Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-Redemptrix are really easy titles to understand if you have a proper catechis and understanding of basic Catholic theology. Mediatrix of all graces simply acknowledges the part that Mary played in our salvation. When she accepted the Lord in her womb thru her own free will by saying the words “Let your will be done,”, she made it possible for all of us to be saved thru her Son. Co-Redemptrix simply means that Mary co-operated with the Grace of God to bear His son. Nothing more, nothing less. Let’s also not forget that while these titles are not endorsed by the Church, when understood this way they are not heretical at all. However, the ideas that some protestants here have put forth would definitely be heretical and would never even be considered in the Catholic Church.

 

[JOHNYJ]

Catholic marianists have a regretable habit of " gilding the Lily ". You would think that "MOTHER OF GOD '. Would be hard to beat,but. Marian extremists keep trying. The titles Co redemptorist and Meadiatrix of all graces have been found to be A Scandal to the faithful. Many believe they smack of heresy.

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

JOHNYJ:

Catholic marianists have a regretable habit of " gilding the Lily ". You would think that "MOTHER OF GOD '. Would be hard to beat,but. Marian extremists keep trying. The titles Co redemptorist and Meadiatrix of all graces have been found to be A Scandal to the faithful. Many believe they smack of heresy.

How is Mother of God “hard to beat” and apparantly, extreme? Did you read the last few posts? I’ve never heard any Catholic say Co-Redemtrix and Mediatrix are heresies.

 

[FCEGM]

JOHNYJ:

Catholic marianists have a regretable habit of " gilding the Lily ". You would think that "MOTHER OF GOD '. Would be hard to beat,but. Marian extremists keep trying. The titles Co redemptorist and Meadiatrix of all graces have been found to be A Scandal to the faithful. Many believe they smack of heresy.

Apparently, Pope Leo XIII doesn’t agree

. . .The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. . .

newadvent.org/library/docs_le13is.htm

 

[RyanL]

I haven’t read the whole thread, so please forgive me if this has already been covered…

Co-redemptrix. Hard to come to grips with, without a proper understanding of the term. I, too, would reject this wholeheartedly if I thought that it was in some way compromising the all-sufficient work of Christ, or stripped God of glory that was rightfully His.

The fact is, it doesn’t.

Let’s look at an analogy. Let’s say a mother is baking a cake. She has all of the ingredients - eggs, flower, chocolate, icing, sugar, everything. She starts baking and her 4 year old daughter comes and asks if she can help. Would any parent refuse their child’s loving request? Of course not. So the child helps - she cracks the eggs, measures the flower, helps to mix, and licks the spoon. That child would be a co-baker. Is the child a baker? Nope. Could the mother have done this on her own? Of course. Did the mother need anything from the child? Certainly not. But did the child do something useful, namely the will of her parent? Yes. Could the cake have been made without the child? Probably, but the fact remains that it wasn’t.

So it is with Mary. Out of loving kindness, God allowed one of his children to help “bake the cake” of salvation. Through Mary, God became flesh. He who needed nothing condescended to need her. He who needs no permission asked the permission of Mary, and would not do His will until it was given. He who created all flesh allowed Mary to be the source of His flesh. If Christ was dedicated to a life of suffering, so was she. As Bishop Sheen said, after hearing Simeon’s prophesy every pulse Mary felt in her child’s wrist would be like the echo of an oncomming hammer. Every bruise He would get would strike in her heart the knowledge of the suffering He was to endure. When Christ was crucified, a sword pierced Mary’s soul to such a degree that it is only fitting to call her the Queen of Martyrs. No one has ever loved Christ like Mary, and no one ever will. What love is there to compare to a mother’s love for her son? Compared to the infinite power and glory of God, Mary is a speck of dust - less, even, as the finite cannot compare to the infinite. Does this take away from the glory that is Mary’s? In no way. She is the Queen of Heaven and the Mother of God. Does Mary’s glory rob God of His? How can it, if it was freely given by God?

It has been said above that Catholics “guild the lilly” when it comes to the Blessed Virgin. Not so. How could any glory we give her be more than the glory which God has given her? How could the highest praise we have to offer her compare to the praise which God Himself has given to her? Is she to be worshiped? Never. We must never forget that there is one God, and to him alone is all worship due. Is she to be honored above all creation? Yes, but only because God has so chosen to honor her, and we are called to do be imitators of God. How could we neglect what God has chosen to hold up? Who are we to believe that we know better than God who should be honored? If we refuse to honor Mary it is because we are refusing to imitate God.

In Christ, through Mary,
RyanL

 

[Alexandra]

Just an aside, but when we adopted our son in Ukraine, and we were talking about Christianity with our translator who was female and about 24, we mentioned the Trinity. She said, “Oh, I know Trinity! Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and Mary!”

davidv:

With respect to “fourth member of the the Trinity”, I believe you are right. - Because it is not a teaching of the Church as far as I know.
If “co-redemptrix” is understood properly it is just another name for the role Mary played, and isn’t new teaching.

 

[Sirach14]

Juxtaposer:

Oh yeah, the site is very anti-Catholic. Mary Ann Collins is an ex-nun.

And dosen’t know the correct teachings of the Catholic Church

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Juxtaposer:

Oh yeah, the site is very anti-Catholic. Mary Ann Collins is an ex-nun.

The person speaking, is less important to what is said that what they say: bad reasoning is bad reasoning, even if it comes from a Saint, and valid reasoning is still valid even if it comes from the mouth of a axe murderer.​

If the contrary were true - the value of the sacraments would be at the mercy of the virtue (or lack of it) of those administering them. The Church teaches that the minister’s moral character has no bearing on the efficacy of the sacraments administered.

So it’s irrelevant how anti-Catholic the site or the speaker may be: the only question that matters is whether those quotations are:

a) genuine
b) correctly translated
c) properly understood
d) presented without distortion

If they are incompatible with the NT, then they are. It’s not as though the Popes were protected from error - even heresy - in all that they say. The Church’s dogmatic teaching on infallibility leave ample room for bishops (Popes included) to commit heresy and blasphemy in their teaching. The question is whether these quotations are either heretical, or blasphemous, or both, or neither. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Semper Fi:

I understand why you may be confused with the “co”, but it is nothing heretical and it is not suggesting that Mary is on an equal footing as Jesus. Really, does a co-pilot land the plane himself? No, he just helps the pilot land it.

The weakness in that argument is, that not all co-operation is of that kind - that is, co-operation between unequals.​

Co-operation can perfectly well be between equals - and the word “co-redemptrix” does not exclude either: so it could perfectly well be taken to mean what those who defend it here don’t want it to mean - that Jesus and Mary are indeed equal partners in the work of our redemption. And that, is most certainly heretical.

The use of that prefix does not exclude error - it’s unlikely that there will be agreement as to whether it invites it. It could certainly be an occasion of error; & not just to non-Catholics.

There is another issue about this proposed definition, which IMHO deserves far more attention than it has received; and it is this: it is often said that if this title is not dogmatised, the Church will be foregoing all sorts of blessings which she needs. There are three things to say about this:

1. How do those who say this, know this ?
2. Why can’t those same blessings come in some other way ? We may be limited - but why should mean that God also is ? Or is he a marionette, which will respond in a certain way, & only to certain stimuli; which, if lacking, leave Him unable to act ? Is God dependent on our activity ? What absurdity ! Yet it is implicit in such reasoning.
3. This argument (if one is to call it that) is a species of blackmail: as though the mother of the Lord were a vain and insecure female who gets in a sulk whenever those talking to her forget to tell her that she is far prettier than anyone else of her age, and isn’t getting wrinkles, and looks as fresh today as when she was a girl of eighteen. Living with such insecure (and easily-offended) people is not pleasant - they are a misery to themselves and others: yet this is the kind of person that some argument for this proposed dogma implies that she is. I don’t believe she is any such thing - yet this notion seems to haunt some Catholic thinking like a shabby grey ghost

Apart from anything else, such a notion implies that her will might not be subject to that of her Lord and Saviour - that His must agree with hers. Such silliness reduces the business of Heaven to something like the polytheistic squabbling so familiar from religions which make no claim to be Christian.

Maybe such a definition is not the Will of Christ - if it is not, then it is unthinkable that she could desire it. Egotistic self-seeking is confined to earth - not found before the very Presence of God. How could Mary seek anything but the Glory of her Son ? even Saints on earth can do that. Yet this thing calls attention to her: it is even misnamed a “Marian” dogma - as though all dogmas were not about her Son and God. ##

 

[sara888]

**Gottleofgeer.

Do you believe in Angels.?

Do you believe the verse in the gospels where Christ said. " I will always send you messengers."

The Blessed Virgin Mary comes second after the trinity. Thats how important she is. ! Our Saints which are part of history are witnesses to her apparations and messages, she intervenes here on earth for her son Jesus Christ. Salvation is through Christ alone. Mary is a messenger and a very important one.!

Sara**

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

JOHNYJ:

Catholic marianists have a regretable habit of " gilding the Lily ". You would think that "MOTHER OF GOD '. Would be hard to beat,but. Marian extremists keep trying. The titles Co redemptorist and Meadiatrix of all graces have been found to be A Scandal to the faithful. Many believe they smack of heresy.

Personal opinion.

 

[Genesis315]

Mary and Jesus are NOT in competition. Sheesh. True devotion to Mary is in essence true to devotion to Christ because she passes on to Christ with her undefiled hands all that we give her. Likewise, she intercedes constantly for us so that just as God became man through her, so can we go back to Him the same way Jesus came to us.

Calling her our salvation is not heretical when this is understood. Her fiat made it all happen. Devotion to her can do nothing but keep us close to her Son. The prayers of the righteous are efficatious, and she is the most righteous. Asking for her prayers when we need grace the most can provide us with what we need to stay out of the hands of Satan.

Don’t let a bunch of people who refuse to call her blessed make you feel scrupulous about your love for her and the role she plays in our salvation by grace. These anti-Catholics who try and pit Mary against Jesus–well, I pray that they are not held culpable for such a thing.

Read this and the quotes above will make sense:

ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Gottle of Geer:

Co-operation can perfectly well be between equals - and the word “co-redemptrix” does not exclude either: so it could perfectly well be taken to mean what those who defend it here don’t want it to mean - that Jesus and Mary are indeed equal partners in the work of our redemption. And that, is most certainly heretical.

I agree with you, and the definition that I stated is what most people who want her to be called that have in mind. There are many prominent Catholic theologians and even Saints (Mother Teresa) who have signed the Vox Populi petition to have the pope dogmatically define Mary’s role in our salvation. The reason that I believe it should be settled by the Pope and the Magisterium is so that people cannot take it out of context to attack the Church and to prevent it from being used against its original intentions.

Mary, as the first Christian, played a huge part in our salvation and although she is not equal to Jesus, we must acknowledge that she has played an instrumental role in that salvation by not only carrying the God-Man for 9 months in her womb, but for being with Him throughout His life even up till His death on the cross.

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

Michael Howard:

Toward the end of the book of Jude (don’t have my bible near) the author speaks about "snatching people from the fire’ and that by doing this we save them. So…in one sense we save them not because we are God, but simply for the fact that we are allowing our selves to be used by Him.

Thank you. Thank you Michael. I didn’t understand before. But I do now. Thank you.

 

[Thepeug]

hermit:

On Trinity Sunday I had to suffer through an entire homily on Mary as the fourth person of the Trinity.

Wow, that’s depressing.