J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Huiou Theou:
Is it essential to our salvation to know Mary?
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M
mrS4ntA
Guest
While it isn’t absolutely essential for salvation (as in the case of Jesus), it is *normatively * and *morally * essential to come to your Heavenly Mother!
J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Why? If a regular person doesn’t know her would you say they’ll probably go to hell?While it isn’t absolutely essential for salvation (as in the case of Jesus), it is *normatively * and *morally * essential to come to your Heavenly Mother!
H
Hesychios
Guest
In the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches Mary is praised beyond anything I have ever seen in a Roman Catholic Church. I am sure most visitors would love it.
Her contribution to our salvation is well understood. In fact, most Marian devotions popular in the West originated in the East.
But we have some clear and concise rules about Mary, and for good reason. She is never depicted alone, always with Jesus in her arms, the one acceptable exception is when she holds a veil of protection over something, and this is only reservedly applied. The standard depiction is with Jesus.
She is depicted with St. John the Forerunner interceeding for us, we never even think of her as the only avenue to Christ and it is never implied in any way.
We never sing Marian hymns at communion, that’s a big no-no. Before and after liturgy we sing a lot of Marian hymns.
Mary is loved by Easterners, but we never do anything that would exaggerate her role. It is far too dangerous.
Some people cannot recognize what might be too much of a good thing.
Her contribution to our salvation is well understood. In fact, most Marian devotions popular in the West originated in the East.
But we have some clear and concise rules about Mary, and for good reason. She is never depicted alone, always with Jesus in her arms, the one acceptable exception is when she holds a veil of protection over something, and this is only reservedly applied. The standard depiction is with Jesus.
She is depicted with St. John the Forerunner interceeding for us, we never even think of her as the only avenue to Christ and it is never implied in any way.
We never sing Marian hymns at communion, that’s a big no-no. Before and after liturgy we sing a lot of Marian hymns.
Mary is loved by Easterners, but we never do anything that would exaggerate her role. It is far too dangerous.
Some people cannot recognize what might be too much of a good thing.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
<<Is it essential to our salvation to know Mary?>>
How could any Christian NOT “know” Mary?
Now tell me, please, is it essential to our salvation to know St. Paul? St. Peter? St. John the Evangelist? St. Luke? St. Matthew? St. Mark? St. James?
Since they were responsible for our knowledge (verbal and written) of Christ, would it not be essential that we know them?
Now, Mary is responsible for providing her body as a receptacle for Christ, for nurturing Him as His mother, for raising Him, for her perfect faith in Him, for asking Him for His first recorded miracle, and by tradition SHE is the source for the material which St. Luke wrote in his gospel.
Surely Mary is as important as any other human/ disciple/ martyr/ doctor of the church/ saint for her work FOR Christ.
To Christ, THROUGH Mary.
Nothing that Mary did was EQUAL to Christ’s works, let alone ABOVE Christ, yet she is certainly as worthy of HONOR as Christ’s FIRST disciple (her “fiat” makes her so), her life FOR Him, and her faithfulness through His passion, death and RESURRECTION.
And while we quite properly worship GOD ALONE, He Himself has asked that, while we should love God with our whole hearts, minds, soul and strength, we should “love our neighbor as ourselves”.
This “Mary-bashing”–remember, we ARE talking of the Mother of GOD–is hardly “loving our neighbor”. In fact, it’s more of a slander campaign. Hardly following the second greatest commandment which God gave us, IMO.
How could any Christian NOT “know” Mary?
Now tell me, please, is it essential to our salvation to know St. Paul? St. Peter? St. John the Evangelist? St. Luke? St. Matthew? St. Mark? St. James?
Since they were responsible for our knowledge (verbal and written) of Christ, would it not be essential that we know them?
Now, Mary is responsible for providing her body as a receptacle for Christ, for nurturing Him as His mother, for raising Him, for her perfect faith in Him, for asking Him for His first recorded miracle, and by tradition SHE is the source for the material which St. Luke wrote in his gospel.
Surely Mary is as important as any other human/ disciple/ martyr/ doctor of the church/ saint for her work FOR Christ.
To Christ, THROUGH Mary.
Nothing that Mary did was EQUAL to Christ’s works, let alone ABOVE Christ, yet she is certainly as worthy of HONOR as Christ’s FIRST disciple (her “fiat” makes her so), her life FOR Him, and her faithfulness through His passion, death and RESURRECTION.
And while we quite properly worship GOD ALONE, He Himself has asked that, while we should love God with our whole hearts, minds, soul and strength, we should “love our neighbor as ourselves”.
This “Mary-bashing”–remember, we ARE talking of the Mother of GOD–is hardly “loving our neighbor”. In fact, it’s more of a slander campaign. Hardly following the second greatest commandment which God gave us, IMO.
M
MariaG
Guest
No.
Should you in all things try to be more like Christ?
Yes.
Did Christ honor His mother?
Yes.
Should we honor His mother?
Yes.
Does the Bible say all generations will call Mary Blessed?
Yes.
Which is the only church that follows the Bible (or Biblical prophecy?) and does call her Blessed?
But, Ask yourself then, is it more Christlike to honor Mary, our Blessed Virgin Mother, or to choose not to know her?
Coming to know Mary better, only helps to know and love Jesus deeper. She always points us to her Son.
As to whether or not she was a virgin, that is more complicated, deserving a new thread, Was Mary always Virgin?
God Bless
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Correct me if im wrong But didnt Jesus call us blessed also at the semon on the mount of olives. He said blessed are the peacemakers,blessed are those that mourn,ect. Am I just pronouncing the word blessed and blessed wrong. Is it like saying polish nationality] and polish[shinning]
?
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MariaG
Guest
Spokenword,
Luke 1:48
For He has regarded the lowly state or
His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth **all generations **
will call me blessed.
I am not sure what the sermon on the Mount has to do with the Bible saying all generation will call Mary blessed? And which church calls Mary Blessed, as the Bible says all generations will?
God Bless.
Maria
Luke 1:48
For He has regarded the lowly state or
His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth **all generations **
will call me blessed.
I am not sure what the sermon on the Mount has to do with the Bible saying all generation will call Mary blessed? And which church calls Mary Blessed, as the Bible says all generations will?
God Bless.
Maria
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
I was just pointing out and correct me if im wrong the fact that our Lord also calls us blessed. It wasnt reserved for Mary only.
H
Huiou_Theou
Guest
The sermon on the mount calls blessed those who follow the way Jesus lays out for life.
Each of the beatitudes is an act that we can do, not just a passive blessing. St. Augustine does an excellent Job tying the beatititudes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Wonderful Catholic theology!). The sermon leads to the highest reward, which is widsdom, and persection.
Jesus calls all blessed who do the Fathers will.
So, if WE do Gods will, we will be blessed.
This is especially true of Mary.
Consider the biblical passage where someone cries out to
Jesus, (Lk 11:27-28), Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that you sucked.
And Jesus replies, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!
Mary IS blessed – She does the Fathers will.
Blessing is incremental, because I have the poorness of spirit does not mean I get the fullness of blessing.
Mary, I believe did have the fullness of blessing.
Hail, Full of grace (kechartomene) …
It is also intersting to notice the path laid out in the Beatitudes leads to << revile you for my sake >>. Mt. 5:11
This peak blessing is for those who are the most like Jesus.
Again, Mary, it was said would have a sword pierce her soul. Lk 2:35, and this piercing was in the midst of the pupose of the messiah.
<<How could any Christian NOT “know” Mary?>>
Each of the beatitudes is an act that we can do, not just a passive blessing. St. Augustine does an excellent Job tying the beatititudes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Wonderful Catholic theology!). The sermon leads to the highest reward, which is widsdom, and persection.
Jesus calls all blessed who do the Fathers will.
So, if WE do Gods will, we will be blessed.
This is especially true of Mary.
Consider the biblical passage where someone cries out to
Jesus, (Lk 11:27-28), Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that you sucked.
And Jesus replies, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!
Mary IS blessed – She does the Fathers will.
Blessing is incremental, because I have the poorness of spirit does not mean I get the fullness of blessing.
Mary, I believe did have the fullness of blessing.
Hail, Full of grace (kechartomene) …
It is also intersting to notice the path laid out in the Beatitudes leads to << revile you for my sake >>. Mt. 5:11
This peak blessing is for those who are the most like Jesus.
Again, Mary, it was said would have a sword pierce her soul. Lk 2:35, and this piercing was in the midst of the pupose of the messiah.
<<How could any Christian NOT “know” Mary?>>
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Huiou Theou:
I hope you are BLESSED with your responce.The sermon on the mount calls blessed those who follow the way Jesus lays out for life.
Each of the beatitudes is an act that we can do, not just a passive blessing. St. Augustine does an excellent Job tying the beatititudes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Wonderful Catholic theology!). The sermon leads to the highest reward, which is widsdom, and persection.
Jesus calls all blessed who do the Fathers will.
So, if WE do Gods will, we will be blessed.
This is especially true of Mary.
Consider the biblical passage where someone cries out to
Jesus, (Lk 11:27-28), Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that you sucked.
And Jesus replies, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!
Mary IS blessed – She does the Fathers will.
Blessing is incremental, because I have the poorness of spirit does not mean I get the fullness of blessing.
Mary, I believe did have the fullness of blessing.
Hail, Full of grace (kechartomene) …
It is also intersting to notice the path laid out in the Beatitudes leads to << revile you for my sake >>. Mt. 5:11
This peak blessing is for those who are the most like Jesus.
Again, Mary, it was said would have a sword pierce her soul. Lk 2:35, and this piercing was in the midst of the pupose of the messiah.
<<How could any Christian NOT “know” Mary?>>
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
Juxtaposer,
You asked:
Yet, to see things more from a Catholic perspective, you might ask yourself the same question, but modified a bit for a Protestant … If a regular person doesn’t know the Bible, would you say they’ll probably go to hell?
If in your opinion, the answer is yes, then you probably tend to believe as I do that prayerfully contemplating what has been Divinely revealed is a good thing which tends toward greater understanding and sanctification of the soul, whereas neglecting prayer and neglecting to seek knowledge of what has been Divinely revealed tends to be detrimental to sanctification, consequently, being detrimental to salvation.
In other words, you’d probably agree with St. Jerome in saying that “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” To me, ignorance of St. Mary presumes ignorance of Scripture.
Consequently, like with knowledge of the Bible, knowledge of St. Mary is normatively necessary for salvation, yet not absolutely necessary. It’s important to note that every word of the Lord is important for our salvation. “Man does not live by bread alone, but upon EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” (Deut 8:3; Matt 4:4). Yet, God is omnipotent. So, the repentent thief who died on the cross next to Jesus was not likely saved by his knowledge of Holy Writ. God’s created things do not place limits upon the almighty power of the Creator.
What God has revealed is that He works in His creation to save His creation. Sin entered the world through the disobedience of a woman after hearing the message of a fallen angel. Salvation entered the world through the obedience of a woman after hearing the message of an archangel. God chose this as part of his plan of salvation, not because it was absolutely necessary, but because it was the most fitting way of saving us. He did it to untie the knot tied by Eve.
God gives us angels and his holy people to share with us His salvific grace, to be co-mediators of his grace. That doesn’t mean that angels and people are the source of his grace, strictly so-called, but it does mean that they can share it with others.
God could give us direct access to his Divine knowledge if he so chooses. Yet, he chooses to impart his grace through the Church. He does indeed choose to give us His gifts (grace) which save us *through *what he has created. St. Paul calls Christians “co-workers” of God. “For we are God’s *fellow workers *(sunergoi); you are God’s field, God’s building” (1 Corinthians 3:9). St. Mary was a devout Jew and a devout Christian–the model of our Church. She is in many ways a co-worker with God.
You asked:
I for one tend not to judge who is going to hell. It’s simply not my job.
Yet, to see things more from a Catholic perspective, you might ask yourself the same question, but modified a bit for a Protestant … If a regular person doesn’t know the Bible, would you say they’ll probably go to hell?
If in your opinion, the answer is yes, then you probably tend to believe as I do that prayerfully contemplating what has been Divinely revealed is a good thing which tends toward greater understanding and sanctification of the soul, whereas neglecting prayer and neglecting to seek knowledge of what has been Divinely revealed tends to be detrimental to sanctification, consequently, being detrimental to salvation.
In other words, you’d probably agree with St. Jerome in saying that “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” To me, ignorance of St. Mary presumes ignorance of Scripture.
Consequently, like with knowledge of the Bible, knowledge of St. Mary is normatively necessary for salvation, yet not absolutely necessary. It’s important to note that every word of the Lord is important for our salvation. “Man does not live by bread alone, but upon EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” (Deut 8:3; Matt 4:4). Yet, God is omnipotent. So, the repentent thief who died on the cross next to Jesus was not likely saved by his knowledge of Holy Writ. God’s created things do not place limits upon the almighty power of the Creator.
What God has revealed is that He works in His creation to save His creation. Sin entered the world through the disobedience of a woman after hearing the message of a fallen angel. Salvation entered the world through the obedience of a woman after hearing the message of an archangel. God chose this as part of his plan of salvation, not because it was absolutely necessary, but because it was the most fitting way of saving us. He did it to untie the knot tied by Eve.
God gives us angels and his holy people to share with us His salvific grace, to be co-mediators of his grace. That doesn’t mean that angels and people are the source of his grace, strictly so-called, but it does mean that they can share it with others.
God could give us direct access to his Divine knowledge if he so chooses. Yet, he chooses to impart his grace through the Church. He does indeed choose to give us His gifts (grace) which save us *through *what he has created. St. Paul calls Christians “co-workers” of God. “For we are God’s *fellow workers *(sunergoi); you are God’s field, God’s building” (1 Corinthians 3:9). St. Mary was a devout Jew and a devout Christian–the model of our Church. She is in many ways a co-worker with God.
J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Huiou Theou said:<<How could any Christian NOT “know” Mary?>>
Because Protestants don’t believe in the communion of saints, making interaction with the saints seemingly impossible to them.
T
Tom
Guest
We could start another thread if one isn’t already started on this.
H
Huiou_Theou
Guest
But the goal of life here on earth is aimed toward heaven.
Even if I ignore the interaction part, while we are here, what about the achievement of heaven?
Will Mary’s honor be ignored in heaven?
I do expect everyone will have a relationship with Mary then.
God is the God of the living, not the dead.
So, if someone, here on earth sets their mind purposely to exclude Mary they are not wisely preparing for heaven.
Again, we must love her and honor her.
I don’t think anyone doesnt know her from scripture, although they may ignore her unwisely.
So, to review the original post, I had understood the heretical charge to be in light of assigning divinity to Mary, which I hope has been sufficiently cleared up. But if it is in light of the communion of saints, then insufficient information has been discussed.
What exactly bothers (in your view) protestants about the communion of saints?
T
Tom
Guest
You’ve never been to the Trinity Church in New york city have you? it’s the oldest protestant Church in the city. It is full of statues of saints. Protestants do believe in the communion of saints, perhaps not all do but I for one know of several. I also know several who love and appreciate Mary as their spiritual mother. The problem is no one can say what Protestants believe in unless we survey all 35,000+ different Churches.
J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Ok. Most Protestants don’t believe in the communion of saints. Notice how the ones that do believe in it have more respect for Mary. I would like to venerate her more. I’m just researching to make sure I don’t do anything blasphemous.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
Juxtaposer,
Didn’t St. John interact with angels and saints when he was “caught up in the spirit” as described by the Book of Revelation? Such interaction is certainly Biblical, so why do Protestants think it impossible, let alone forbidden?
The epistle of Hebrews also testifies to the communion of saints. Observe, Heb 12:22-24:
Why? Isn’t that a bit suspicious? All the early Church Fathers believed in it. It’s part of what is known as the Apostle’s Creed (see this Protestant source: ccel.org/creeds/apostles.creed.html).
Didn’t St. John interact with angels and saints when he was “caught up in the spirit” as described by the Book of Revelation? Such interaction is certainly Biblical, so why do Protestants think it impossible, let alone forbidden?
The epistle of Hebrews also testifies to the communion of saints. Observe, Heb 12:22-24:
Note that it is not God OR Jesus OR angels OR saints. It’s as if they are all one body in heaven that we have come to, all in communion with one another.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
Juxtaposer,
This link may be of some interest to you …
MaryMediatrixPatristicMedievalEarlyOrthodoxEvidence by Dave Armstrong
(if that link doesn’t work, try this one:
216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:Xj7a6_eRARcJ:falcon.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ321.HTM+Mary+as+Mediatrix:+The+Patristic,+Medieval,+and+Early+Orthodox+Evidence&hl=en )
This link may be of some interest to you …
MaryMediatrixPatristicMedievalEarlyOrthodoxEvidence by Dave Armstrong
(if that link doesn’t work, try this one:
216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:Xj7a6_eRARcJ:falcon.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ321.HTM+Mary+as+Mediatrix:+The+Patristic,+Medieval,+and+Early+Orthodox+Evidence&hl=en )
T
Tom
Guest
Great, we welcome you.
Tom
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