Salvation Through Mary?

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Juxtaposer:
Does that mean the quotes are false?
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They are taken out of context, twisted and juxtaposed with misleading information; that’s what!
 
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mrS4ntA:
They are taken out of context, twisted and juxtaposed with misleading information; that’s what!
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Settle down now. It’s really late where I am, but tomorrow I’ll read the info on the links given in this thread. Also, I would like to know if what I said in post #32 is correct. Thanks
 
Theology 1301…3 hrs college credit…Jesus was divine, Mary was human…my wife could be called a co-redemptrix (definition???) for she has no doubt brought me closer to Christ as does my devotion to Mary…“if she is good enough for God…she is good enough for me”… (quote from Father Caropi I think…not mine…)… To Jesus through Mary…how many of you as a child got a favor granted from your father by going through you mother…?

Sounds a bit like we are slinging quotes (context ???)at each other…a bit divisive don’t ya think…maybe even playing into the devils hands. Let’s don’t fight over the gift of Mary…

Remember please, that with a little effort you can find anything on the internet (not the truth but printed none the less).

A quote out of context is…
 
larry j:
Sounds a bit like we are slinging quotes (context ???)at each other…a bit divisive don’t ya think…maybe even playing into the devils hands. Let’s don’t fight over the gift of Mary…

Remember please, that with a little effort you can find anything on the internet (not the truth but printed none the less).

A quote out of context is…
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Good word…thank you. If someone has set their mind like a flint not to see one’s view or where they are coming from, the devil can have a field fay. good word. God Bless
 
Originally I gave credit for a quote to Father Caropi…heck I should have given him credit for the theooogy lesson also…

I’ve mentioned it before as a disclaimer of sorts…when ya only have bout a half brain left (Paarkinison’ s disease)…sometimes there are not many "original" thoughts…

God bless Fatther Caropi and all of our priests and ordained ministers…
 
larry j:
Originally I gave credit for a quote to Father Caropi…heck I should have given him credit for the theooogy lesson also…

I’ve mentioned it before as a disclaimer of sorts…when ya only have bout a half brain left (Paarkinison’ s disease)…sometimes there are not many "original" thoughts…

God bless Fatther Caropi and all of our priests and ordained ministers…
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Awesome…I used Corapi well several posts back when I referred to the Immaculate heart of Mary as a “mystical garden where God loves to dwell”…got to love the Corapi!!!
Blessings
 
Corapi? I read that imagery of Mary as God’s mystical dwelling place somewhere else though, St Louis’ True Devotion, it was I think. or was it Secret of Mary?
 
Catholic4aReasn said:
Mary as co-redemptrix IS being considered, but Mary as a fourth member of the Trinity is not and cannot. Where’d you get that?
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On Trinity Sunday I had to suffer through an entire homily on Mary as the fourth person of the Trinity.
 
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Juxtaposer:
Check this out, Michael: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=6190
Myabe you’ll understand me a little better.
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Fair enough and my apologies. Understand, it was quite early in the morning and I had not had my coffee yet…I am much more charitable when I have some strong shots of espresso. I hope to continue dialouging in a spirit of charity and graciousness:)
Peace of Christ to you
 
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Juxtaposer:
I think the idea is heretical, but apparently popes throughout history didn’t. …

I know that Mary points us to Jesus, but that’s NOT what these popes are saying.
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From a previous post, you say that you have read some early Christian writings. Have you seen what Irenaeus of Lyon, a third generation Christian, wrote about Mary?
St. Irenaeus:
In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, “instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.” For the Lord, having been born “the First-begotten of the dead,” and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die.) Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith. (Irenaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies, Bk.3, Ch. 22, about A.D. 189, emphasis added) (Also see note, below.)
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Although St. Paul wrote of the relationship between Adam and Jesus, we know that Adam did not act alone but had a female accomplice. As you can see from the above quote, early Christians were quick to perceive that, just as the Fall of Mankind was caused by the disobedience of both a man and a woman, Adam and Eve, our salvation was caused by the obedience of both a man and a woman, Jesus and Mary. As an even earlier Christian wrote, this was ordained by God “in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 100, about A.D. 155)

Note: Irenaeus of Lyon again takes up the Eve and Mary theme later in Against Heresies in Bk. 5, Ch. 19. (www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103519.htm)

Todd
 
Here’s some good reminders from the cathecism

4****88 “God sent forth his Son”, but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, “a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary”:126

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127
[489](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/489.htm’)😉 Throughout the Old Covenant the mission of many holy women *prepared *for that of Mary. At the very beginning there was Eve; despite her disobedience, she receives the promise of a posterity that will be victorious over the evil one, as well as the promise that she will be the mother of all the living

I was thinking about Christ as the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” and it hit me like a ton of bricks that Mary…from the foundation of the world would be God’s chosen instrument be bring forth the Lamb of God. This really places her in a unique catergory as “blessed among women”…

Father Caropi makes the point that if each of us had the ability to create our mother, would we not make her perfect? Without stain? Or would we make her sinful so that the devil would be able to get at her and cause her torment?

488 “God sent forth his Son”, but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, “a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary”:126

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, *so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127
*[489](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/489.htm’)😉 Throughout the Old Covenant the mission of many holy women *prepared *for that of Mary. At the very beginning there was Eve; despite her disobedience, she receives the promise of a posterity that will be victorious over the evil one, as well as the promise that she will be the mother of all the living.128 By virtue of this promise, Sarah conceives a son in spite of her old age.129 Against all human expectation God chooses those who were considered powerless and weak to show forth his faithfulness to his promises: Hannah, the mother of Samuel; Deborah; Ruth; Judith and Esther; and many other women.130 *Mary "stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted Daughter of Sion, and the new plan of salvation is established."131 *
 
Todd Easton:
From a previous post, you say that you have read some early Christian writings. Have you seen what Irenaeus of Lyon, a third generation Christian, wrote about Mary?

Although St. Paul wrote of the relationship between Adam and Jesus, we know that Adam did not act alone but had a female accomplice. As you can see from the above quote, early Christians were quick to perceive that, just as the Fall of Mankind was caused by the disobedience of both a man and a woman, Adam and Eve, our salvation was caused by the obedience of both a man and a woman, Jesus and Mary. As an even earlier Christian wrote, this was ordained by God “in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 100, about A.D. 155)

Note: Irenaeus of Lyon again takes up the Eve and Mary theme later in Against Heresies in Bk. 5, Ch. 19. (www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103519.htm)

Todd
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Wow! That was some rich stuff Irenaeus wrote. No, I hadn’t read that before. Could you direct me to a place where I could find Justin Martyr’s quote in its full context please? I respect the early Church fathers very much, so anything else you can give me by them would be much appreciated.
 
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Juxtaposer:
Wow! That was some rich stuff Irenaeus wrote. No, I hadn’t read that before. Could you direct me to a place where I could find Justin Martyr’s quote in its full context please? I respect the early Church fathers very much, so anything else you can give me by them would be much appreciated.
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Sure. newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm
Justin Martyr:
CHAPTER C – IN WHAT SENSE CHRIST IS [CALLED] JACOB, AND ISRAEL, AND SON OF MAN.

"Then what follows–‘But Thou, the praise of Israel, inhabitest the holy place’–declared that He is to do something worthy of praise and wonderment, being about to rise again from the dead on the third day after the crucifixion; and this He has obtained from the Father. For I have showed already that Christ is called both Jacob and Israel; and I have proved that it is not in the blessing of Joseph and Judah alone that what relates to Him was proclaimed mysteriously, but also in the Gospel it is written that He said: ‘All things are delivered unto me by My Father;’ and, ‘No man knoweth the Father but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and they to whom the Son will reveal Him.’ Accordingly He revealed to us all that we have perceived by His grace out of the Scriptures, so that we know Him to be the first-begotten of God, and to be before all creatures; likewise to be the Son of the patriarchs, since He assumed flesh by the Virgin of their family, and submitted to become a man without comeliness, dishonoured, and subject to suffering. Hence, also, among His words He said, when He was discoursing about His future sufferings: "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the Pharisees and Scribes, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.’ He said then that He was the Son of man, either because of His birth by the Virgin, who was, as I said, of the family of David and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham; or because Adam was the father both of Himself and of those who have been first enumerated from whom Mary derives her descent. For we know that the fathers of women are the fathers likewise of those children whom their daughters bear. For [Christ] called one of His disciples–previously known by the name of Simon–Peter; since he recognised Him to be Christ the Son. of God, by the revelation of His Father: and since we find it recorded in the memoirs of His apostles that He is the Son of God, and since we call Him the Son, we have understood that He proceeded before all creatures from the Father by His power and will (for He is addressed in the writings of the prophets in one way or another as Wisdom, and the Day, and the East, and a Sword, and a Stone, and a Rod, and Jacob, and Israel); and that He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. 100, about A.D. 155)
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larry j:
Theology 1301…3 hrs college credit…Jesus was divine, Mary was human…my wife could be called a co-redemptrix (definition???) for she has no doubt brought me closer to Christ as does my devotion to Mary…“if she is good enough for God…she is good enough for me”… (quote from Father Caropi I think…not mine…)… To Jesus through Mary…how many of you as a child got a favor granted from your father by going through you mother…?

Sounds a bit like we are slinging quotes (context ???)at each other…a bit divisive don’t ya think…maybe even playing into the devils hands. Let’s don’t fight over the gift of Mary…

Remember please, that with a little effort you can find anything on the internet (not the truth but printed none the less).

A quote out of context is…
Click to expand...
I highly doubt that repeating what the Church founded by Christ(Catholic)says regarding Mary is “divisive.” If it is percieved that way, well??
Furthermore, and in all respect, to equate the Blessed Virgin Mary with just any person which one thinks lead them to Christ is a weak argument and a fallacy. Yes, Mary is not divine, but neither is She just any married woman, nor as any other human being. Does anyone know of any other human being in History or currently that was born WITHOUT original sin??? Well, the Mother of God was born WITHOUT the stain of original sin(proclaimed Dogma of the Imaculate Conception, by Pope Pius IX, year 1854). Dogmas=arguments closed on this. There are 4 Marian DOGMAS.
 
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misericordie:
I highly doubt that repeating what the Church founded by Christ(Catholic)says regarding Mary is “divisive.” If it is percieved that way, well??
Furthermore, and in all respect, to equate the Blessed Virgin Mary with just any person which one thinks lead them to Christ is a weak argument and a fallacy. Yes, Mary is not divine, but neither is She just any married woman, nor as any other human being. Does anyone know of any other human being in History or currently that was born WITHOUT original sin??? Well, the Mother of God was born WITHOUT the stain of original sin(proclaimed Dogma of the Imaculate Conception, by Pope Pius IX, year 1854). Dogmas=arguments closed on this. There are 4 Marian DOGMAS.
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Well, actually, Adam and Eve were created without original sin; though then again, they were not born were they?

Anyway, I agree with you totally! Mary is not just *any * creature, she is exalted above all men and even angels! Like St Louis said, she is the mystical garden, the dwelling place, of God - a glorious place no man or angel could fathom or enter but God alone; God is glorified in this creature of His – His masterpiece indeed!
 
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misericordie:
I highly doubt that repeating what the Church founded by Christ(Catholic)says regarding Mary is “divisive.” If it is percieved that way, well??
Furthermore, and in all respect, to equate the Blessed Virgin Mary with just any person which one thinks lead them to Christ is a weak argument and a fallacy. Yes, Mary is not divine, but neither is She just any married woman, nor as any other human being. Does anyone know of any other human being in History or currently that was born WITHOUT original sin??? Well, the Mother of God was born WITHOUT the stain of original sin(proclaimed Dogma of the Imaculate Conception, by Pope Pius IX, year 1854). Dogmas=arguments closed on this. There are 4 Marian DOGMAS.
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But I think the analogy works in purely “human” terms to grasp a better understanding of Mary’s role in bringing us the merits of her sons sacrifice. Not perfectly, but it’s there.

Most of us here no doubtedly feel that Mary is unique and truely blessed among women, not divine but powerful in her vocation given to her by her Son. That’s what makes her powerful. She is true humilty and perfection personified, that is why she has such power over the devil!
 
Yo misericordie
I apollogize if I degraded Mary in any way…Mary and the rosary especially, have saved my life…I owe her alot…she brings me to Jesus…

I kid every so often about having only bout 1/2 a brain left…more truth than fiction sometimes (too many perscription meds, once upon a time, for my Parkinson’s treatment…personal opinion only). Sometimes I don’t complete my thoughts when I write…but for the future…if ya hear anybody pickin on Mary just yell at me…I’ll come a running to her defense

Hope we are still brothers and sisters in Christ…sorryif I left any doubt.
 
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