Salvation Through Mary?

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Juxtaposer:
Yes, she helped bring grace into the world initially, but I thnk the Holy Spirit had a little something to do with that. What grace would you say she disstributes today?
She keeps our belief in the euchurist true. Look at those churches that are in schism from Rome. The Orthodox churches or the so called traditionalist churches, such as The Society of St. Pius X or the V or whatever. They all have valid sacraments, especially the Euchurist. They also have a strong devotion to “the Blessed Mother”. On the other hand, our protestant brothers and sisters have no devotion to Mary and no Euchurist. You can turn your back on the Pope and still maintain the sacraments, but if you turn your back on Mary, you turn your back on the “Bread of Life”. “No Mary, no Euchurist”.
 
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Juxtaposer:
Or is it your belief in the Eucharist that keeps that in Mary true?
What do you mean? Regardless of what you might perceive, the Eucharist is still the summit of Christian life… for Catholics, anyway. 👍
 
Juxtaposer,
Basically what I’m getting out of that is the only way Mary gives us grace is through her intercession to Jesus, who in turn, answers our prayers. Therefore, it isn’t really Mary GIVING us the grace, but we received it because she interceeded for us. Am I right? I’m not Catholic if you coulnd’t tell.
Yes.

God Bless
 
970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

I think it ireally boils down to "semantics’ when speaking of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her influence upon us. Mary (as a creature) was preserved from sin at the moment of her conception so Christ her Son is still indeed her Savior. She is not divine but sinless based on the merits of Christ.

Mary still has free will as any creature does and chose to be obediant to Gabriel in accepting Gods will for her to bare the Messaih. At her “yes” the Holy Spirit overshadowed her (marital language) and she concieved. She is the first true disciple, she is the perfect example of the "pure and spottless bride’ that Christ will return for, and above all she is “full of grace” or better yet "transformed by grace.

So just as the Father sent Christ into the world at the incarnation and was perfectly obediant to the Fathers will, Christ has given Mary a powerful vocation to lead souls back to Christ and to help them walk through the wilderness. Yes, all the graces that flow through her hands come from the merits of Christ, but at the same time our Mother is a unique creature and truely “blessed among women” as the scriptures states.

Mary is a mirror reflecting the image of Christ, a sign for the church and a light for the people of God giving hope that one day we will be perfected when our pilgramage has ended. Mary suffered with Christ all the way to the cross and never waivered. Simeons prophecy of the sword piercing her heart was fullfilled at the cross, and it was there that Jesus gave His mother to John, and on a grander scale to His Church, so she can be rightly called the “Mother of the church”…

I sense at times certain individuals have a fear of giving her any type of honor and devotion, but it seems to me that by honoring Mary and the perfect work done in her and through her Christ shines more brightly…

Blessings
 
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Juxtaposer:
Or is it your belief in the Eucharist that keeps that in Mary true?
It’s this,that and the other. That’s what makes us catholic( according to the whole). We believe all of divine revelation or we believe none of it. Jesus told the apostles to teach all that he commanded them. St. James said that if you violate the smallest part of the law, you’re in violation of all of it.
"God Bless"
 
I saw a beautiful sunrise this morning, but then I ruined it by telling my wife it was a beautiful earth rotation! She just didnÕt get it.

Most of the quotes given in the thread starter ( notably the first, third, and fourth ) have exclamation points, and ÔO clauses.
This looks like poetry or prose to me. Both tend to use exaggeration to make a point which is more expressive of feelings than technical facts. They donÕt bother me much, even if strictly speaking, they may not be technically accurate. These statements are just meant for the poetically inclined part of the audience.

None of the quotes calls mary ÔGodÕ or even the ambiguous ÔLordÕ which may or not indicate divinity. None of the quotes claims Mary is equal to God, or anything else along those lines. (Even Queen is a diminutive role, see Bathsheba vis a vis Solomon)

So we have some popes making poetic, or synectic comments.

What, exactly, is the formal problem with these quotes? Is it that someone might misunderstand them even in context? I have read many other works by these popes, and I can see they have a strong belief in the saving power of Jesus (even on his own merits).

In the later threads, the concept of diminishing JesusÕ glory came up. That bothers me.

If to be king means to wash otherÕs feet, and to be God means holding the whole universe in existence. I can hardly believe that having a mother involved in salvation makes things any worse.

As to the previous thread, I see it this way:

If I give my wife $50, and she gives my son $25 of it, then she HAS really given my son $25. But Remember! God is the one who holds the $25 in existence. I still think my wife really gave my son something. (And I’m sure my son will ask her again in the future, she’s a bit of a softy).

I will admit that the mediatrix of all graces thing, and even the co-redemtorix thing, arenÕt good in the sense that they can confuse people. (I believe that Pope John Paul II, has even said some of these titles are inappropriate and shouldn’t be used.), but, then, even scripture is confusing to some people. 2nd Peter, end of the letter.
 
I saw a beautiful sunrise this morning, but then I ruined it by telling my wife it was a beautiful earth rotation! She just didnÕt get it.

Most of the quotes given in the thread starter ( notably the first, third, and fourth ) have exclamation points, and ÔO clauses.
This looks like poetry or prose to me.

None of the quotes calls mary ÔGodÕ or even the ambiguous ÔLordÕ which may or not indicate divinity. None of the quotes claims Mary is equal to God, or anything else along those lines. (Even Queen is a diminutive role, see Bathsheba vis a vis Solomon)

So all I see is some popes making poetic, or synectic comments.

What, exactly, is the formal problem with these quotes? Is it that someone might misunderstand them even in context? I have read many other works by these popes, and I can see they have a strong belief in the saving power of Jesus (even on his own merits).

In the later threads, the concept of diminishing JesusÕ glory came up. That, at least, bothers me.

If to be king means to wash otherÕs feet, and to be God means holding the whole universe in existence. I can hardly believe that having a mother involved in salvation makes things any worse.

As to the reality of Mary’s gifts, I see it this way:

If I give my wife $50, and she gives my son $25 of it, then she HAS really given my son $25. But Remember! God is the one who holds the $25 in existence.
I still think my wife really gave my son something. (And I’m sure my son will ask her again in the future, she’s a bit of a softy).

I will admit that the mediatrix of all graces thing, and even the co-redemtorix thing, arenÕt good in the sense that they can confuse people. (I believe that Pope John Paul II, has even said some of these titles are inappropriate and shouldn’t be used.), but, then, even scripture is confusing to some people. 2nd Peter, end of the letter.
 
Michael Howard:
I sense at times certain individuals have a fear of giving her any type of honor and devotion, but it seems to me that by honoring Mary and the perfect work done in her and through her Christ shines more brightly…
I absolutely agree, however, I can see the other side of the argument also. When I first heard of her called a “co-redemptrix” I was shocked. The reason, my understanding of the “co” was not what the Church meant by “co”. I think of a “co” as an equal partner. After reading the Church stance on calling her a co-redemptrix I understand the Church’s meaning, which of course is correct (but unnecessary). However many hear us call her that and don’t take the trouble to find out the truth. To me, the language “co-redemptrix” begs for misunderstanding. Why did we do that? She shares in redemption, but, so do you and I and all the saints. It seems to me we (the Church) used this terminology to bait. I love Mary; she is my mother in faith. Using the title co-redemtrix drives an unnecessary wedge between Christians.
 
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Tom:
I absolutely agree, however, I can see the other side of the argument also. When I first heard of her called a “co-redemptrix” I was shocked. The reason, my understanding of the “co” was not what the Church meant by “co”. I think of a “co” as an equal partner. After reading the Church stance on calling her a co-redemptrix I understand the Church’s meaning, which of course is correct (but unnecessary). However many hear us call her that and don’t take the trouble to find out the truth. To me, the language “co-redemptrix” begs for misunderstanding. Why did we do that? She shares in redemption, but, so do you and I and all the saints. It seems to me we (the Church) used this terminology to bait. I love Mary; she is my mother in faith. Using the title co-redemtrix drives an unnecessary wedge between Christians.
Hi Tom,

I appreciate your reply. Yes, I agree that the title itself can cause confusion and uncertainty when not understood properly. Coupled with that, many Protastants already have major issues with most of the Marian dogmas defined by the church. These misunderstandings arise from the "so-called’ silence of scripture concerning our Blessed Mother.

I have been in that boat, and at times found myself very angry with the Catholic church for what I understood to be “deceptive doctrines of men”. So I symphathise with those who are looking from the outside in, these teachings can be painful, especially to someone who feels they are following the truth as best as they can, not understanding the Catholic churches teachings on Mariology. We speak tw0 completely different languages.

I do have to disagree with you on the point you made about all of us having the ability to share in the redemption. This is true to a point, but where the arguement falls apart is in Mary’s sinlessness. (her body prepared to bring forth the Messiah)

This was granted to her from the beginning of time for the scripture speaks of Christ as “The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”. Here we know that a body would be prepared for the Messiah (for only with a body could he become the lamb) and coupled with that, Mary was chosen to be called ‘full of grace’ or “transformed by grace” to bring forth the Messiah in the flesh. No other creature in history would be created (past or future) to give birth to God especially in this fashion. She stands her in a league of her own correct?

So when we speak of the Blessed Virgin Mary as ’Co-Redemptrix’ we have to consider several things:

(1) She shared in the flesh that was nailed to the cross, bringing us the redemptive fruits of salvation.

(2) She shared in the "Blood of the new Covenant" for it was her blood as well.

(3) The heart of Jesus that was pierced bringing forth blood and water was her heart as well.

(4) And to top it off, her heart was *spiritually pierced with a sword *that she could fully enter into suffering with her Son dying on the cross. the agony in her soul must have been unbearable.

I think these things alone merit her the title, not that she rivals her Son for only he is divine, but that he created her from the foundation of the world to give birth to Him and to suffer with Him. I would love to dialouge more with you on this Tom, I think this is a fascinating mystery and the one that gets me the most excited!
:) Have a wonderful day
 
Michael Howard:
I do have to disagree with you on the point you made about all of us having the ability to share in the redemption. This is true to a point, but where the arguement falls apart is in Mary’s sinlessness. (her body prepared to bring forth the Messiah)
I absolutely agree. I was not attempting to elevate “our” position or diminish the position of Mary. Mary has brought more to her Son than all of “us” combined. She truly has a special function in God’s plan. The fact remains that the titles separate her children and I doubt very much she likes that, and the title really is misleading.
To the original question of does salvation come from Mary: Ready for a stupid analogy??? Salvation is from St Anne. After all if it wasn’t for St Anne, Mary would never have been born, right? So, no St Anne, no Mary, no Mary no Jesus. And no, I’m not trying to say St Anne was even in the same league, as you put it.
Michael Howard:
She stands her in a league of her own correct?
Hey remember I said it was stupid… lol but I think it makes my stupid point.
We could argue this point forever. I guess you could ask the questions: Could you gain your salvation from Mary without Jesus? Could you gain your salvation from Jesus without Mary? The answer should be obvious. Does this diminish the role of Mary? I don’t think so. You could of course argue that it is impossible to separate them, since Mary is in heaven and truly “one” with God. However that could be said of all the saints.
I agree she is a wonderful topic. I love explaining her perpetual virginity to people. It’s amazing when someone “gets it”.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, and His virgin mother, be with you always.
Tom
 
Thanks Tom, I’m in agreement with you buddy:)

P:S-Please pray for me I’m in terrible back pain:banghead:
 
Michael Howard:
Thanks Tom, I’m in agreement with you buddy:) P:S-Please pray for me I’m in terrible back pain:banghead:
So sorry about your back, i certainly will pray for you
Tom
 
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Tom:
Could you gain your salvation from Mary without Jesus? Could you gain your salvation from Jesus without Mary? The answer should be obvious.
Would you say that one could be saved without knowing Mary?
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Tom:
I love explaining her perpetual virginity to people. It’s amazing when someone “gets it”.
Please, explain away.
 
Is it essential for salvation?
Hmm…

If not, then neither are you.
Yet, it would be appropriate if you prayed for me and vice versa.
There is a severe danger in the self righteousness of saying I don’t need person X, or I don’t love person X.
Yes, you must love her!

The whole law, and all the prophets rest on two commands.
Love the lord your god… and your neigbor as yourself.
(Now don’t start the whos my neighbor thing…)

One other thought here.
In the ten commandments it says to honor your father and mother.
Jesus clearly honors his mother. (That word, honor, is peculiar).
I would clearly not dishonor her, for I fear the reaction of her son!
 
said:

that was nailed to the cross, bringing us the redemptive fruits of salvation.

(2) She shared in the "Blood of the new Covenant" for it was her blood as well.

(3) The heart of Jesus that was pierced bringing forth blood and water was her heart as well.

(4) And to top it off, her heart was *spiritually pierced with a sword *that she could fully enter into suffering with her Son dying on the cross. the agony in her soul must have been unbearable.

(4) is certainly scriptural, Simeon/Anna.
And ties in nicely with the gift Mary gave us.

(3),(2), and (1) are also true in a certain sense.
My son is me and also my wife, according to the flesh.
However, scientifically, the mystery is a bit deeper with Jesus.

A man has both an X and Y chromosone, whereas a woman does not. So what happened in the case of Jesus is simply not a natural phenomena, since he was born virginally. Virgin births in nature only produce females…

So what of the masculinity of Jesus, that was supplied somehow external to Mary? Certainly, Mary’s flesh is found in Jesus…
 
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