Salvation

[Lampo]

(con’t)

1. Anathemas took effect automatically. While the Church does have penalties that take effect automatically (latae sententiae), the penalty of anathema was not one of them.

This should be obvious from the fact that a special pontifical ceremony had to be performed as part of the anathema. Obviously, the mere fact that someone utters a heresy in some part of the world does not cause the pope to suddenly stop what he is doing and perform a specific ritual concerning this person.

The anathemas of Trent and other councils were like most penalties of civil law, which only take effect through the judicial process. If the civil law prescribes imprisonment for a particular offense, those who commit it do not suddenly appear in jail. Likewise, when ecclesiastical law prescribed an anathema for a particular offense, those who committed it had to wait until the judicial process was complete before the anathema took effect.

1. Anathemas applied to all Protestants. The absurdity of this charge is obvious from the fact that anathemas did not take effect automatically. The limited number of hours in the day by itself would guarantee that only a handful of Protestants ever could have been anathematized. In practice the penalty tended to be applied only to notorious Catholic offenders who made a pretense of staying within the Catholic community.
2. Anathemas are still in place today. This is the single most common falsehood one encounters regarding anathemas in the writings of anti-Catholics. They aren’t in place today. The penalty was employed so infrequently over the course of history that it is doubtful that anyone under an anathema was alive when the new Code of Canon Law came out in 1983, when even the penalty itself was abolished.
3. The Church cannot retract its anathemas. Anti-Catholics love to repeat this falsehood for rhetorical flourish. But again, it isn’t true. The Church is free to abolish any penalty of ecclesiastical law it wants to, and it did abolish this one.

Because the penalty has been abolished, a word should be said about the status of the conciliar canons that employed this penalty. In addition to prescribing the imposition of a juridical penalty, the phrase anathema sit (“let him be anathema”) also came to be one of the phrases that the Church traditionally has used to issue doctrinal definitions.

Catholic scholars have long recognized that when an ecumenical council applies this phrase to a doctrinal matter, then the matter is settled infallibly. (If a council applied the phrase to a disciplinary matter, then the matter would not be settled infallibly, since only matters of doctrine, not discipline, are subject to doctrinal definition.)

Thus, when Trent and other ecumenical councils employed anathema sit in regard to doctrinal matters, not only was a judicial penalty prescribed but a doctrinal definition was also made. Today, the judicial penalty may be gone, but the doctrinal definition remains. Everything that was infallibly decided by these councils is still infallibly settled.

This has consequences under current canon law. Those things that are both divinely revealed by God and proposed as such by the Church cannot be obdurately denied or doubted without the offense of heresy (CIC [1983] 751). Heresy does carry a penalty of automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication (can. 1041, 2º), though this does not apply to those who have never been members of the Catholic Church (can. 11), and even then there is a significant list of exceptions (can. 1323).

Unfortunately, there is little likelihood that passionate anti-Catholics such as Gendron, White, and numerous others will get the facts straight, openly admit their error, and actively work to counteract the damage they have done by spreading so much misinformation on this subject. But one day it will all get straightened out—by God.

 

[guanophore]

If we’re discussing what it is that makes a person righteous before God and thereby saves his soul, then there are two incompatible and conflicting views of God, man, and salvation:

1. Mankind is fallen and incapable of doing anything to save himself. Because we are fallen, our will is directed away from God and is focused primarily on pleasing ourselves.
2. Mankind only “stumbled” but didn’t actually FALL. We are still very capable of using our “free” will to want what is truly good (we can, by our free will, WANT to accept Jesus) and we CAN cooperate with the grace of God…even unto salvation.

Oh, no, this is not a correct understanding of original sin. Mankind did, indeed, fall. However, the fall that separated us from the grace of God did not take away the image and likeness of God in which we are created. We are not able to fulfill that existence, because we are separated from Grace, but the fall did not unmake what God had made, and called “good”. We cannot turn toward God without grace. Catholics call this prevenient grace, the grace that “draws” a person into faith. After a person enters a relationship with Christ through faith (in baptism) then the bondage to sin is broken, and man is able to cooperate with Gods grace unto salvation.

 

[Odell]

To live according to the Spirit is to place no confidence–no faith, in our own flesh, but instead to live by faith in the perfect obedience of Christ, who is our righteousness. Those who live in their own flesh want to satisfy their fleshly desires. Those who live according to the Spirit are focused on the Spirit.

trying to understand your definition of living by the Spirit could you tell me in your defenition what **perfect obedience of Christ **is?

also are we living by the Spirit when we do the works God has prepared for us?

(Eph 2:10)
“For we are his handiwork created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advanced that we should live in them.”

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

Nick why dont you try reading the whole canan?

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the **exclusion of the grace **and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema [excommunicated].

The canon is explaining what James means in James 2:24. He says a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. As Catholics, we believe, as the Scriptures and fathers teach, that justification is not a purely juridical action, in which a man is judged to be just by God in light of Christ, but also a true intrinsic act, in which man is mande truly interiorly just by God, who pours the Holy Spirit into our hearts.

Now if it were merely juridical, justification would be either/or - either one is just, or he is not. However, as justification pertains to real interior justice, it is not either/or, but rather it is on a continuum of sorts. In other words, one person may be more just than others. Protestants also recognize this concept, but they seperate it from justification. They do recognize that in the process of sanctification a person grows more and more interiorly holy, but they do not see it as a part of justification, which they see as an either/or juridical act.

The Church teaches that no person can be justified by his own works, as you will be aware for having read the canons of Trent . This is because we owe a debt of justice. Once we are justified by Grace, however, we can grow in justification - that is, attain a greater level of holiness and thus a greater justice before God - by our works. These works are themselves the gift of God. In other words, it is through God’s Grace that we do the good we do, and that He rewards it, but nevertheless we can still say in some mysterious way that we have merited the reward we receive. This is what the Council teaches using James 2:24, and if considered rightly, it is inarguable. For if we recognize that justification is merely either/or, as the Protestants do, then James 2:24 teaches that a man can earn his own salvation.

Now if you would like I started a thred on this and have had no takers

please check it out titled

**Protestants: Prove from scripture that Jesus took upon our punishment and your imputed with his Righteousness **
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=229337

Oh, no, this is not a correct understanding of original sin. Mankind did, indeed, fall. However, the fall that separated us from the grace of God did not take away the image and likeness of God in which we are created. We are not able to fulfill that existence, because we are separated from Grace, but the fall did not unmake what God had made, and called “good”. We cannot turn toward God without grace. Catholics call this prevenient grace, the grace that “draws” a person into faith. After a person enters a relationship with Christ through faith (in baptism) then the bondage to sin is broken, and man is able to cooperate with Gods grace unto salvation.

as Catholic Dude puts it they belive we are cars totally wrecked barley even reconizing we are still cars. And Jesus comes to cover the wreck up. Catholics believe all we are missing is gas Jesus comes to give us the gas so we can run the way God intended the car or us to run in the first place.

again this is talked about in the thred I started but no protestant wants to to get cought up in the true reason why we differ in or teachings on Justification because they will see the flaws in there own theology.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Do you believe this happens apart from any effort or act of the will on the part of a person?

I believe that salvation is a free gift that comes to us without our searching for it, and without any effort on our part to obtain it. But salvation never comes to a person against their will, because the will of man is changed by the Spirit of God through regeneration causing the person to want what is truly good.

But Jesus did say that one can enter the kingdom by obeying all the commandments, did He not? He did not disagree with the man, but pointed out one thing that was lacking. If the man had taken that step in faith, sold all that he had, and followed Jesus, he would have found eternal life. This is an action the man would have had to do - a work.

Yes, salvation is only for those who are found perfectly righteous. This story of the rich man (in Mark 10) teaches that the reason why salvation is so hard (impossible) for mankind to attain by keeping the commands, is because we are all fallen sinners. We don’t have to be rich to love someone or something more than we love God. All of us value worldly things more than we should. All of us are lacking in certain ways. The work that the rich man needed to do, he was unable to do because he loved his money that much. Only God can change our hearts and minds.

 

[Nick_Jones]

I agree with you 100%. This is why I cannot understand why people say that Rom. 3:23 applies to everyone.

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How can they be righteous before God, and blameless, but still in sin?

The same way that Abraham was found righteous: by his faith in God.

Rom. 4:1-7
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

 

[Odell]

I believe that salvation is a free gift that comes to us without our searching for it, and without any effort on our part to obtain it. But salvation never comes to a person against their will, because the will of man is changed by the Spirit of God through regeneration causing the person to want what is truly good.

Are you saying regeneration comes before Faith?

Why is not everybody saved then, when God desires all to be with him?

also you say the Spirit of God causes the person to want wat is truly good, why cant the Spirit of God cause people to DO what is GOOD

no one is good but our Lord. The Spirit of God is what is at work in us that is doing the good.

Yes, salvation is only for those who are found perfectly righteous. This story of the rich man (in Mark 10) teaches that the reason why salvation is so hard (impossible) for mankind to attain by keeping the commands, is because we are all fallen sinners. We don’t have to be rich to love someone or something more than we love God. All of us value worldly things more than we should. All of us are lacking in certain ways. The work that the rich man needed to do, he was unable to do because he loved his money that much. Only God can change our hearts and minds.

If the rich man was open to God (The Spirit of God) could he have experinced a change of heart and left his money behind to follow Christ?

 

[Odell]

The same way that Abraham was found righteous: by his faith in God.

Rom. 4:1-7
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Faith is credited as righteousness but so are our works and our words…

Mat 12: 36"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37"For by your words you will be** justified**, and by your words you will be condemned."

Rom 2: 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be** justified**.

1 Cor 4: 3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.

Lk 18: 13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14"I tell you, this man went to his house** justified **rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

James 2: 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? [Genesis 22:9-12] 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

 

[Odell]

continued from above

Gal 3: 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would** justify **the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” [Genesis 12:3]

Rom 4: 2 2For if Abraham was **justified **by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” [Genesis 15:6]

James 2: 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? [Genesis 22:9-12] 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

These three passages uncover something that is so decisive that the Protestant understanding of justification runs into serious problems.** In each of the above passages we see Abraham mentioned, as well as “justification” mentioned, yet each of these passages reference a different point in Abraham’s life! What this means is that justification is not a one time event in the Christian’s life and it does not occur only upon their conversion to Christianity**. The Protestant imputation understanding can’t explain this because, in the Protestant model, justification can and only needs to occur once, and this occurs once and for all time at the moment the sinner converts to Christianity. Galatians 3:8 is very clearly talking about justification and that by faith Abraham accepted the OT equivalent to the Gospel when he obeyed God in Genesis 12. Hebrews 11:8 also references this obedience of Abraham in Genesis 12 and thus Abraham had to be justified at this point. **To suggest, as Protestantism does, that Abraham was not actually justified until Genesis 15 results in serious problems, that would mean Abraham was pleasing and obeying God all those years leading up to Genesis 15 yet he was never saved! **For the Catholic model these passages pose no problem at all, the fact is as Abraham continued to obey God he increased in justification (righteousness) through the continuous infusion of grace. This is how James 2 above is to be understood as well, Abraham grew in righteousness as he continued to grow in God’s love and was justified through his obedience in Genesis 22:9-12. Lastly comes the most problematic passage for Protestants in the Bible, James 2:24 which explicitly says justification is “not by faith alone.” Protestants offer many excuses at this point (which include changing the meaning of “justify” in this passage), yet when interpreted in light of Abraham’s justification in Genesis 12 (Gal 3:8; Heb 11:8) and later in Gen 15:6 (Rom 4) the Catholic interpretation of James 2 is the one that best fits the Biblical evidence (also note Gen 26:4-5).

 

[Odell]

keep in mind who Paul was talking about when he says salvation does not come from works of the Law.

also keep in mind Paul does say in

Romans Ch 2 “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who **selfishly disobey **the truth and obey wickedness.”

 

[bookgirl32]

It isn’t an amazing concept for those who read the bible.

Rom. 9:14-21
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Okay, you dont’ have to prove it to me. I was being sarcastic, it’s what we’re saying too!

 

[bookgirl32]

True. Although God continues to work in me for His glory, I was saved by grace, through faith in Jesus, which is something that God did TO me.

Titus 3:5
“he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit…”

What would the washing be, if it’s different than the renewal?

 

[bookgirl32]

No, as I’ve been saying, when the Holy Spirit brings a person to repentance (by regeneration–being born of the Spirit), the newly saved person will begin to change as he or she starts to live by faith. This inward change affects the whole person–the thoughts, attitudes, priorities, and the deeds. I’m not saying that a saved person stops sinning. But when God makes a bad tree good, the good tree will begin to bear good fruit.

You better watch yourself, you’re starting to sound like us .Except you seem to be saying that there is no cooperation from us at all with this grace, that we’re like zombies who now have no choice but to cooperate.

 

[bookgirl32]

Since we have exactly the opposite view concerning the nature of God and His purpose in creation, it seems to you as though I’m twisting your words: the creation of the entire universe is for GOD’S GLORY, and not for the glory of mankind.

Since we have the opposite focus concerning what (or who) is good and what (who) is not good, you might view my words as “twisting” your words: You seem to have your entire focus for your salvation on your own supposed goodness–the good that YOU MUST DO, while I remain completely focused on the goodness and mercy of God, and what Jesus already HAS DONE that has saved me.

Actually, right now you’re sounding very focused on what YOU’RE DOING and we’re not.

 

[guanophore]

The same way that Abraham was found righteous: by his faith in God.

Rom. 4:1-7
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

I agree. But then, which is it? If all have sinned and fallen short, how come there are these people who are blameless and righteous in the sight of God?

Why did Jesus say He did not come to call the righteous if there were not righteous?

 

[guanophore]

I believe that salvation is a free gift that comes to us without our searching for it, and without any effort on our part to obtain it. But salvation never comes to a person against their will, because the will of man is changed by the Spirit of God through regeneration causing the person to want what is truly good.

If this is true, then why did God make man with the desire to seek HIm?

Acts 17:26-27
26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him.

If we’re discussing what it is that makes a person righteous before God and thereby saves his soul, then there are two incompatible and conflicting views of God, man, and salvation:

1. Mankind is fallen and incapable of doing anything to save himself. Because we are fallen, our will is directed away from God and is focused primarily on pleasing ourselves.

Man cannot make himself right with God on his own. But that does not mean that man is incapable of anything. Man is capable of desiring God, and can yearn for a right relationship. This is part of what God has created. He made us with a desire to be happiest when we are in Him.

 

[guanophore]

To live according to the Spirit is to place no confidence–no faith, in our own flesh, but instead to live by faith in the perfect obedience of Christ, who is our righteousness. Those who live in their own flesh want to satisfy their fleshly desires. Those who live according to the Spirit are focused on the Spirit.

Sounds like a lot of work to me!

 

[Nick_Jones]

Actually, right now you’re sounding very focused on what YOU’RE DOING and we’re not.

True! Here I’m just pointing out that the end result of our view of God, man, and salvation, will our focus–WHAT (or who) we are trusting for our salvation, and therefore, our whole devotion in life. I’ve noticed that when a group of people views mankind as basically GOOD, their trust will be in their own supposed goodness and their own ability to cooperate with God. For those who view mankind as fallen and EVIL, their focus will be on their own sinfulness and their need for God’s wonderful mercy.

Luke 18:9-14
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Nick_Jones]

Are you saying regeneration comes before Faith?

Yes. No one seeks the physician if he thinks he doesn’t have any disease.

Why is not everybody saved then, when God desires all to be with him?

If God wanted to save all of us He certainly could save all of us, couldn’t He? But it pleased God to choose some and not all.

also you say the Spirit of God causes the person to want wat is truly good, why cant the Spirit of God cause people to DO what is GOOD

If God had the desire to create robots who can only do what He has programmed them to do, then God certainly could have created robots. But it pleased Him to create human beings instead.

no one is good but our Lord. The Spirit of God is what is at work in us that is doing the good.

I agree.

If the rich man was open to God (The Spirit of God) could he have experinced a change of heart and left his money behind to follow Christ?

Yes. I believe that God has the ability to cause us to become willing even to give our lives for His glory. God has indeed given this to some, but not to all of us.

 

[Nick_Jones]

For the Catholic model these passages pose no problem at all…

James 2: 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Rom. 4:4-5
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

---

The Catholic doctrine has James teaching that Abraham was made righteous (justified) by his works, and Paul teaching that Abraham was credited with righteousness (justified) by faith apart from works. Which is it?

 

[bookgirl32]

Yes. No one seeks the physician if he thinks he doesn’t have any disease.

Wait, do you believe in predestination?