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bookgirl32
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And answer this one please . . .
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Nick_Jones
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The washing by the Spirit is what makes the renewal of the person happen.
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bookgirl32
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And this is proving what to us? We already believe this. We’re not talking about our works, we’re talking about God’s works through us. I think the problem you’re having with us is that you believe in predestination, and it sounds like you think God just picks certain people to be saved and then saves them, regardless of anything they ever do, even believe. So are there people walking around out there completely ignorant of the fact that they’ve been “saved”? Or does God save them, then let them know they’ve been saved, then they’re really glad about it?
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bookgirl32
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Please show me where the Catholic doctrine teaches that about Abraham . . .
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Odell
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God desires all to come to the kingdom of God
1 Tim. 2:3-4, “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who** desires all men to be saved **and to come to the knowledge of truth”
God would not choose some if he wants ALL
The reson why some arnt saved is not because it pleases God it is because they freely choose to not accept him.
Human beings with free will
So Catholics would be the ones he gives this too and Protestants not.
I say that joking but its kind of hard to be willing if you teach you dont have to be
Now let me refrase the question
**If Human beings not Robots were open to God (The Spirit of God) could we experinced a change of heart in such a way to follow Christ and abide in his commandments? **
Both
Gal 3: 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” [Genesis 12:3]
Rom 4: 2 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” [Genesis 15:6]
James 2: 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? [Genesis 22:9-12] 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
These three passages uncover something that is so decisive that the Protestant understanding of justification runs into serious problems. In each of the above passages we see Abraham mentioned, as well as “justification” mentioned, yet each of these passages reference a different point in Abraham’s life! What this means is that justification is not a one time event in the Christian’s life and it does not occur only upon their conversion to Christianity. The Protestant imputation understanding can’t explain this because, in the Protestant model, justification can and only needs to occur once, and this occurs once and for all time at the moment the sinner converts to Christianity. **Galatians 3:8 is very clearly talking about justification and that by faith Abraham accepted the OT equivalent to the Gospel when he obeyed God in Genesis 12. Hebrews 11:8 also references this obedience of Abraham in Genesis 12 and thus Abraham had to be justified at this point. To suggest, as Protestantism does, that Abraham was not actually justified until Genesis 15 results in serious problems, that would mean Abraham was pleasing and obeying God all those years leading up to Genesis 15 yet he was never saved! **For the Catholic model these passages pose no problem at all, the fact is as Abraham continued to obey God he increased in justification (righteousness) through the continuous infusion of grace. This is how James 2 above is to be understood as well, Abraham grew in righteousness as he continued to grow in God’s love and was justified through his obedience in Genesis 22:9-12. Lastly comes the most problematic passage for Protestants in the Bible, James 2:24 which explicitly says justification is “not by faith alone.” Protestants offer many excuses at this point (which include changing the meaning of “justify” in this passage), yet when interpreted in light of Abraham’s justification in Genesis 12 (Gal 3:8; Heb 11:8) and later in Gen 15:6 (Rom 4) the Catholic interpretation of James 2 is the one that best fits the Biblical evidence (also note Gen 26:4-5).
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ChrisWRIT
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Now, now, Nick, are you reading text that isn’t there, or are you insisting that Catholic doctrine is teaching something it doesn’t teach?
I will state from the outset, that the Catholic Church teaches, in accordance with the Bible, that we are incapable of saving ourselves. Not with works alone. Not with faith alone. Not with anything that we are capable of ourselves.
Neither the Bible nor the Catholic Church claim that Abraham was justified by his works, but by faith which was made complete by his works.
It is apparently often forgotten that the guy who wrote James 2:21 also wrote James 2:22:
"You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did."
James & Paul aren’t talking about “different kinds of faith” (i.e., a “saving faith” vs a “dead faith”.) By using the same example that Paul did of Abraham’s faith, & noting that it was made complete by his actions, James 2 talks about how we are not justified by faith alone, because faith without works is incomplete.
Paul makes it clear in many places that faith is required. James expands on this by noting that COMPLETED faith is required.
Nothing is complete if it requires anything else. If faith can be completed by works, then it is incomplete when alone. As such, we are not justified by incomplete faith - we are not justified by faith alone.
As I & others have noted, the Catholic Church holds that we are saved by God’s grace alone. This grace makes it possible for us to respond positively to God; to come to have faith, & to perform the works that God has prepared for us to do, which complete our faith.
You are correct, grace is freely given, not in response to anything we do, but entirely gratuitously. Not because of works. Not because of faith. Neither is possible of ourselves. We are not capable of either but by God’s grace alone.
I recommend reading what the Catholic Church actually teaches on the subjects of Justification, Original Sin, & Predestination. (For accurate Catholic teaching, stick to actual Catholic sources, like www.vatican.va, or www.NewAdvent.org.)
Regards,
Chris
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Nick_Jones
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Both are true. All of are sinners in our flesh, and there are some people who are blameless and righteous IN CHRIST.
No one is righteous in their flesh. Because all have sinned, we need to be made righteous and it is the Spirit who makes us righteous, not the deeds of our flesh.
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Nick_Jones
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Do you think this passage is telling us that fallen mankind seeks only the One God that really exists and not other gods that don’t exist?
Without regeneration, mankind is hostile to God. Those who are opposed to God do not, and will not, seek God.
Rom. 8:7
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
Not unless we have been born of the Spirit.
Rom. 8:7
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
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Nick_Jones
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Which one?Sounds like a lot of work to me!
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Nick_Jones
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I’m saying that what it is that makes us righteous in God’s sight–thereby saving us from our sins, is the good works that were done by Jesus, who suffered on the cross and died for His sheep. This is the FOCUS of truly repentant sinners who have been saved by God’s wonderful mercy. But many will hear the gospel message and they will still be confidently FOCUSED on their own good works for their salvation.
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Nick_Jones
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Yes, that is what Scripture teaches.
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Nick_Jones
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Is God sovereign over most things, or is He sovereign over all things?
Then maybe you can tell me WHY some people freely choose to accept what is truly GOOD, while others freely choose to reject what is truly GOOD.
Are you saying that since you have freely chosen to accept what is GOOD while many others have rejected God, you are morally superior to those who reject God? I’m just wondering what it is specifically, that makes YOUR free will capable of such great moral reasoning that many other people do not seem to have.
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Nick_Jones
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Hi Chris,Neither the Bible nor the Catholic Church claim that Abraham was justified by his works, but by faith which was made complete by his works.
It is apparently often forgotten that the guy who wrote James 2:21 also wrote James 2:22:
"You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did."
James & Paul aren’t talking about “different kinds of faith” (i.e., a “saving faith” vs a “dead faith”.) By using the same example that Paul did of Abraham’s faith, & noting that it was made complete by his actions, James 2 talks about how we are not justified by faith alone, because faith without works is incomplete.
Paul makes it clear in many places that faith is required. James expands on this by noting that COMPLETED faith is required.
Nothing is complete if it requires anything else. If faith can be completed by works, then it is incomplete when alone. As such, we are not justified by incomplete faith - we are not justified by faith alone.
As I & others have noted, the Catholic Church holds that we are saved by God’s grace alone. This grace makes it possible for us to respond positively to God; to come to have faith, & to perform the works that God has prepared for us to do, which complete our faith.
You are correct, grace is freely given, not in response to anything we do, but entirely gratuitously. Not because of works. Not because of faith. Neither is possible of ourselves. We are not capable of either but by God’s grace alone.
I recommend reading what the Catholic Church actually teaches on the subjects of Justification, Original Sin, & Predestination. (For accurate Catholic teaching, stick to actual Catholic sources, like www.vatican.va, or www.NewAdvent.org.)
Regards,
Chris
By the way you’ve worded this relationship between faith and works above, it isn’t really clear to me if you are interpreting James 2 the same way that I do.
Abraham was justified BEFORE he did the good works that he was known for (see Gen. 15:6). James 2:14-26 is teaching against the beliefs of certain people that the mere profession of faith is what saves us. The faith that saves will, in general, be evident by what we do.
To give an example, in general, a blind man will be characterized by slow, cautious movements and a walking stick to probe for objects in front of him. But it would be poor logic to infer that those things that characterize him as blind (slow, cautious movements and a walking stick), have anything to do with what makes him a blind man. The man who claims to have saving faith will, in general, be the sort of man who shows his faith by doing good unto others. But the good deeds he does unto others has absolutely NOTHING to do with what has made him righteous and saved.
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Sean_Boyle
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Odell
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Do you think the** HE **in this passage is Buddha?
Acts 17:26-27
26 And HE made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him.
No The He is Jesus (God) who made us where we would seek HIM (God) The real God not buddha not any other gods that dont exist.
We are created in Gods likeness and we naturally desire to know the truth. Look at the Indians they desired God just because it wasnt the real God dosnt mean that they were not created with the desire to seek the true God.
Man you dont know how ridiculous you sound.
So the Indians didnt seek God
I like how you liken those who are hostile to God are without regeneration and DONT submit to the LAW OF GOD
Good Job
So the Indians didnt seek God?
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Odell
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Is God Love or is He evil?
Because they choose. God would not force anyone to choose or not to choose that would not be Love. and God is Love.
My free will is no different than anyone elses or yours for that matter you could freely choose to keep Gods commandments but you dont like to keep his commandments its not as if God stops you from keeping his commandments.
Are you saying that Jesus told the rich man to sell all he has and follow him. And I might add that YOU said
so if the rich man was open to the Spirit of God he would have experenced a change of heart and left his possesions behind we both agree.
back to my question
Your telling us that Jesus asked this man to sell what he had to follow Him but yet didnt give him the grace to do so
now if you ask me that just dont sound right
does it sound right to anybody else? Am I making sense if not can anyone word it alittle different?
I mean how can we trust anything God says if he tells us to do something but then God chooses not to give us the Grace to do so?
One more question that I really really wanted Nick to answer
**
If Human beings not Robots were open to God (The Spirit of God) could we experinced a change of heart in such a way to follow Christ and abide in his commandments?**
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Nick_Jones
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No. You have missed the point. It wasn’t Jesus’ intention to change the rich man’s monetary status (his wealth). Jesus wasn’t teaching that we can only follow Him by becoming poor. He was teaching that no one can DO anything to save himself or herself from hell. All of us are sinners, and sinners, by definition, are those who are unrighteous and who do not cooperate with God. And we don’t cooperate with God because we love certain things more than we love God.
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Odell
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Your the one who said
Jesus was teaching that this Man was not willing to do what God asked of Him.
Could you emagin if Abraham decided he could not give up his only son?
would you be telling us that if this was the case “God would be telling us its impossible to give up our only son”
It was possible for this man to give up his money all he had to do is be open to Gods Grace. Who knows God may have stood still his hand!
John 13:34-35 - Jesus gives us a new commandment, that we love one another as He loves us.
John 15:12 - this is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you.
Rom. 12:10 - Paul commands us to love one another.
1 Cor. 13:2 – Paul teaches that if our faith moves mountains, but we have not love, we are nothing indeed
1 Cor. 13:13 - abide in faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
John 15:10 - if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love
The bible has alot to say about Love but no where does it say we dont cooperate with Gods Love instead it talks about how we should Love and that Nick is a cooperation with Gods Love.
The bible tells us to cooperate with the Love of God because obviously the bible would not be telling us to do something that is unrightouss in Loving other things other than God.
either the Love the bible is talking about is Love of self our Love of God. I would assume it is talking about the Love of God. And when we do that act of Love it is not Love of self but the very Love of God.
Am I making any sence
You still have not answered my question
If Human beings not Robots were open to God (The Spirit of God) could we experinced a change of heart in such a way to follow Christ and abide in his commandments?
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bookgirl32
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Um, yeah, try answering my question.
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bookgirl32
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Well that might’ve been good to know about 150 posts ago or so
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