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Corki
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No, there is a grave difference. One is possible; one isn’t. Unfortunately, some people actually do have sex with thier dogs. Christian homosexual marriage does not exist.
Same Sex sexual relationships: history in the Catholic (and Orthodox, Protestant) churches.
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NotTooSmart
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Publisher:
Never mind. I realize that we have totally opposite sources of faith here.
I am more interested in how someone like me who views the Scriptures as the ultimate source of faith or hypothetically a Catholic who has a little different but not totally different source of faith, can conclude with any consistency (1) Homosexuality (within a same sex marraige) is OK with God according to the Scriptures (2) Sex with animals is not OK with God according to the Scriptures.
I don’t think it can be done. Because the reality is that there is less in the Scriptures about sex with animals than there is about same sex sexual relationships. But, what there is in Scripture is unaminously against.
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Publisher
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We may come to our faith in Christ from two directions…but it is He that redeems both of us.
The scriptures do not address same sex relationship in any way. They do condemn same sex rape and violence and intimidation…they condemn same sex pagan religious practices in respect to worship and practice…they condemn male temple prostitution…they condemn pedastry and the coercsion of the young…but they do not address same sex RELATIONSHIPS based on mutual love, respect, fidelity and mutual reciprocity of love and compassion.
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NotTooSmart
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Well I disagree. But again, if this is all based on Scripture and Scripture is handled consistently in both cases, I would kind of like to see how you come to one conclusion and not the other and handle Scripture consistently. Lay it out for me.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
How can you possibility link Christian homosexuals who have been purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ, who by their own conscience before God… enter into the covenant of marriage in the church of God with bestiality? I feel sorry for anybody who tries to link bestiality with same sex marriage. You guys are just like the Pharisees on missing the point of the law.
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Corki
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Read my post again. I did NOT link them. I specifically disassociated them.
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Publisher
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Yes we do disagree. We disagree on how scripture is viewed. I do not believe scripture can be divorced from it’s time and culture in which it was written.
The story of Sodom, is it about rape and violence against strangers or is the focus on condemning same sex relationships…which it doesn’t address. In primitive cultures men victimized other men by sexual assault…similar to our modern prison system where men vicitimize and rape other men by assault…their assault has nothing to do with love, mutual respect or relationship…it has everything to do with violence and rape.
The Law…especially Leviticus…was written to instruct Israel to not engage in the pagan practices of their neighbors. This included sacrificing children to Molech…religious/temple prostitution, male or female, again, victimization of their captives through sexual assault…“not as your neighbors”.
Throughout some of Israel’s history you will find in the KJV and DR the word “sodomite”…in more modern translations it is rendered “male prostitute”.
In Romans, is Paul condeming loving same sex relationships or is he seeking to make a point that Christians who once engaged in pagan practices…worshipping birds and beasts and created things…men and women who once being pagans of Rome, engaged is religious pagan temple practices which involved engaging the priest/priestess sexually to gain favors of the gods?
In Corinthians is Paul condeming loving same sex relationships, or condemning pedastry and the sexual corruption of the young by older men? Is Paul condeming the male prostitutes who serviced these older men or loving monogomous same sex relationships?
While there is a great silence in scripture concerning same sex relationships…this great silence cannot be used to condemn others and rob them of the grace and mercy of God’s blessings upon their relationships…relationships dedicated and covenanted with Him by men and women who happen to be gay.
While scritpure is not completely silent in it’s portrayal of some same sex relationships…Ruth and Naomi, David and Jonathan, Daniel and the euncuh, the centurian who came to Jesus to heal his servant…neither does it condemn loving same sex relationships by it’s silence on the subject.
The Bible contains writings and stories based on the time and cultures of which it was written…they had no concept whatsoever of loving same sex relationships. Human sexuality is a recent science just now in the last 100 years being explored…modern sexuality was never considered 2000-2500 years ago…it has no ancient equivelent…but rape, violence, victimization and prostitution knows no time limits and scripture indicates the issues of rape and violence and victimization are as old as humanity itself
As I wrote earlier…I would rather err on the side of love and compassion by accepting the gay “stranger within my gates” than err on the side of condemnation and rejection from my faith community…rejection of those whom are loved beyond measure by this God who while we were yet a far off, ran to us and embraced us in His great mercy and love.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Father John Harvey, who has spent many many years working with homosexual Catholics, suggested in one of his books that homosexual orientation is an impediment to the ability of the person involved to make the sort of commitment that is required for marriage. If he’s right, such a marriage would be invalid because of lack of freedom of consent. He suggestsed that this impediment should be recognised as an impediment in the canonical sense as well.
IOW, STM he would agree with the statement behind your question. I forget the name of the book; maybe another poster knows ?
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Someone did marry an animal quite recently - a cow, IIRC. In the Middle or Far East.
This is much less vague:- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-animal_marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-animal_marriage)
- [MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos (MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos)
- [BBC NEWS | Africa | Sudan man forced to 'marry' goat (BBC NEWS | Africa | Sudan man forced to 'marry' goat)
- [http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=17371&in_page_id=2 (http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=17371&in_page_id=2)
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Brendan
Guest
Here is more about the British woman ‘marring’ a dolphin.
theage.com.au/news/world/woman-marries-dolphin/2006/01/01/1136050339590.html
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Holly3278
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Some Protestant churches have strayed from the historical Christian teaching on homosexuality and have embraced same sex “marriage”. This is disgusting in my opinion. Some of the Protestant churches that embrace same sex “marriage” are the United Church of Christ and the Metropolitan Community Churches. What they don’t realize, though, is that historically Christianity has always been opposed to same sex activities. It’s even in the Bible! But of course such churches twist the Bible to mean what they want it to mean but in reality the Bible has always had the same meaning. You can’t change what the Bible means. The Bible clearly supports the Catholic Church totally and no other church. Please read the following about homosexuality and same sex “marriage”.
catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_on_Homosexuality.asp
catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp
scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html
staycatholic.com/vatican_document_on_same_sex_marriage.htm
americancatholic.org/newsletters/cu/ac0304.asp
catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_on_Homosexuality.asp
catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp
scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html
staycatholic.com/vatican_document_on_same_sex_marriage.htm
americancatholic.org/newsletters/cu/ac0304.asp
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NotTooSmart
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Good grief.
But wait a minute. Given everything that I’ve learned in these threads the last couple of days, this must be OK with God.
I mean if God didn’t say in Genesis (and Jesus later reiterate) that marriage was designed for a man and a woman, I see no place in Scripture where the institution of marriage should be confined to humans.
I mean the article did say the woman loved the dolphin didn’t it.
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NotTooSmart
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Amen.
Now my job as a Protestant is supposedly to bash the Catholic Church at every opportunity. But I am going to commit Protestant heresy now. If this offends you, go on to the next thread.
Despite our differences on certain theological issues, the Catholic church is to be commended for maintaining a Biblical moral theology for 2000 years. Good grief, it only
took mainline Protestant denominations 450 years or so to turn their backs on 2000 years of moral theology accepted by everybody for brand new, creative interpretations of the Bible in respect to moral theology that have absolutely no historical precedent.
Given the influence that the Catholic church has in the world, it is incumbent upon me to pray for your pope that this strong witness to traditional moral theology be maintained.
But you didn’t hear me say this did you. Because my job as a Protestant is to bash the Catholic church at every opportunity that I have. And I am deserting my job.
Oh well. Maybe the next Sola Scriptura thread when I get bashed for having lots of demons and going to my Brothel I call a church I can pick up my job again.
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ferdie
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qui_est_ce
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I agree.
As Catholics, we are called to love the sinner, but hate the sin. The Catholic Church welcomes all sinners. It is a hospital for sinners. When we sin, we must repent. This is the mercy of God. He forgives those seeking forgiveness. The unrepentant condemn themselves. God is the judge of who is repentant and who is unrepentant. It is against Catholic Teaching to shun homosexuals.
My question is, knowing Catholic Teaching on the subject, why would a homosexual want to be Catholic?
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qui_est_ce
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I still think Not Too Smart can change his signature nowI am not offended!
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manualman
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Sorry for the delayed response. There is actually a direct link between the legitimized use of contraception and the attempts to legitimize “same sex marriage.”
Contraception is nothing new. Ancients used lamb intestines for condoms and herbalists had concoctions that may actually have suppressed fertility (like today’s pill) and/or caused early abortions. The historical record contains plentiful example of Early Fathers condemning the use of these attempts at contraception. These early fathers may not have had the scientific understanding about conception that we do today, but they DID have something we mostly today severely lack: a combination of observation skills and the ability to recognize cause and effect through reflection and pondering (no TV and iPods!). They clearly saw that it was GOD who made sex and babies linked. They also clearly saw that when man attempted to delink them through contraception, sex became degraded in the process.
It IS subtle, because GOD didn’t make sex ALWAYS lead to children. The key is that when WE try to take action to sterilize a sex act that GOD would have made fertile, we actually change that act into something at least partially degrading to both spouses. This damage doesn’t (necessarily) occur if the couple refrains from sex on those days God made fertile when they have a legitimate need to not get pregnant at that time.
This is also why the Catholic Church opposes technological conception methods like IVF (even if you remove all the abortive abuses). A child has the right to be the result of the loving coupling between his father and mother, not the outcome of a neato lab experiment. It is a subtle act of violence against the child to take that right away from him. This is a hard thing for infertile parents to hear because we today have come to believe that parenthood is our RIGHT. It is not. It is a gift given by God, and sometimes He choses (in his mysterious and hard wisdom) to give a different gift.
We don’t necessarily oppose fertility drugs to help a woman who doesn’t naturally ovulate. It IS the proper role of medicine to help fix malfunctions that occur in the human body. If it can help her ovulate, then the couple can conceive as God intended. See the difference?
What does all this have to do with “gay marriage?” Well when protestantism embraced contraception, they took a Trojan Horse into the city (no pun intended!). Inside this horse lurked a nasty enemy: a subtle change in attitude towards marriage that made it all about the two lovers, not the whole resulting family. Once this attitude became fully entrenched, gay marriage was inevitable! If marriage is primarily just about the union of two lovers, how can you deny it to two lovers because they have inner attractions that they didn’t chose to have that are different than yours? That’s a LOT harder temptation to resist than when marriage was defined as the loving union between man and wife that forms the foundation of the family, which in turn forms the foundation of civilization itself! Sad to say, but it is logically inconsistant to embrace contraception and reject gay marriage. If protestantism holds out against the cultural tide, I predict it will only be for the wrong reasons: it’s easier to oppose a sin one isn’t personally inclined towards! That doesn’t bode well for our witness to the world.
Consider the historic christian position on contraception (inherently evil). Read Christopher West’s “Good News About Sex & Marriage” for an easy reading introduction. Christendom would be a lot more believable to the world if we lived the hard teachings that were hard on US in addition to those that are hard on THEM.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Okay, so you are implying that all Christian churches that perform same sex marriages are apostate and not considered to be a true Christian Church? Wow, sounds very cultic to me, making such an exclusive dogmatic statement. Are you saying legal same sex marriages performed around the world never happened in the eyes of God? Does God recognizes heterosexual marriages between unbelievers? Are you saying God favors the unbelieving heterosexual couple over the Christian homosexual couple? Please provide the Catholic document that supports your post.
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NotTooSmart
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Do you have these quotes.
Not that the issue is that applicable to me at my age (in my 50s).
At one time I knew of a church that banned any form of contraception including natural family planning. It was influenced by the teaching of Bill Gothard.
Families with anywhere from 6-14 children were the norm there. It actually was kinda weird.
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NotTooSmart
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I will change my signature once the complements in the other thread die down, the thread goes to thread heaven, and I get around to it.I still think Not Too Smart can change his signature now
But just when I get to thinking that maybe it is time for another signature, another choice compliment rolls in (see today).
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