San Francisco Catholic Charities Head an Active Homosexual

[Strummer]

Gabriel Gale:

I guess that you would need to define “a scientific study.”

I’m not a professional scientist by trade but at the very least I would expect the rigors of science to demand an objectively representative sample of sufficient quantity as to be statistically predictive. Soliciting volunteers with a vested personal interest in seeing a “successful” result is hardly objective. Note, I’m note saying the subjects were externally coerced but I do suspect that a large portion were internally coerced. This would be especially true of those who have a very conservative religious background.
Gabriel Gale:

I find your charge mainly illogical. You call the reseacher biased (with-out knowing anything about Dr. Spitzer), even though you state that the reseacher admitted that this survey did not find a lot of examples of complete change (a bias researcher would hide such results).

Not to quibble but I believe I was calling the funding/supporting institution biased (and the study flawed). Spitzer was indeed circumspect (which makes itsjustdave1988’s reliance upon this study all the more ill-informed) in many regards and then would offer little snippets that could be snatched up by those with an anti-homosexual agenda.

Essentially, I see Spitzer saying, “Yes, sometimes in some extreme cases where the subject is highly motivated there can be some small but measurable lessening of homosexual urges and/or fantasies.” And then there’s folks who hold that up and say, “See! Homosexuality IS a choice. It’s THEIR fault!” with the underlying message being: “So now we’re free to persecute them.”

 

[Strummer]

Gabriel Gale:

I fali to see why homosexual would not be as accountable as greedy corporate executives or sexual predators. Greed, lust, pride are all powerful emotions. That’s why we need an infallible source to check our morality.

Let me get this straight: you are equating an inate sexual orientation with a learned emotional response to external stimuli? Apples and oranges.
Gabriel Gale:

Does it really matter whether or not we can demonstrate some kind of genetic relationship.

Absolutely! If sexual orientation is as biologically based as left or right-handedness it relieves a good portion of the moral culpability. I believe this is precisely why some conservatives are so set on disproving the biological connection, so that they can justify their anti-homosexual feelings, whether these feelings are their own altogether ookie feeling about homosexuality or if it comes from their understanding/interpretation of Church teachings.

 

[Brendan]

Strummer:

Absolutely! If sexual orientation is as biologically based as left or right-handedness it relieves a good portion of the moral culpability.

Actually it does not. The Church itself accepts that this contition is un chosen.

But that does not mean that it is an impairment of Free Will.

The alcholic, for example, has a biological pre-disposition towards the abuse of alcohol. In other words, they have a pre-disposition towards the Sin of Gluttony.

This does not reduce their moral culpability in the matter, as drinking is still a Free Will Choice. The gene does not bring the shot glass to their lips.

The same is true for homosexuality. They have a pre-disposition towards homosexual acts. But they still have Free Will in the matter. Even the law recognized that.

If the person does not give Free Will consent to a sexual act, that is commonly called rape.

So either one must admit that there is Free Will (which carries moral culpability) or that every act of homosexual sex is a form of rape.

Which one do you hold to?

I

 

[Walt_Oliver]

There are plenty of other threads where the nature of homosexuality is being discussed. Let’s get this thread back on topic, please.

Walt

 

[PantherLake]

I realize this is an old thread but I happened to stumble upon
it. Mr. Motola is my cousin and whatever choices he has
made in his life is really no concern of anyone here. Yes we are Catholics and so is he. He has always gone to church, went
to a Catholic college and always giving his time to a cousin
that is retarded. This is when he and I were going up. He and
his partner are good people. Their little girl has a loving
family that I firmly believe no other famliy could have given her. You may not agree on his lifestyle but he does a damn
good job at work or he wouldn’t be where he is now! I am
proud of him and so is the big Italian family we are from.

 

[irenaeus1]

I realize this is an old thread but I happened to stumble upon
it. Mr. Motola is my cousin and whatever choices he has
made in his life is really no concern of anyone here. Yes we are Catholics and so is he. He has always gone to church, went
to a Catholic college and always giving his time to a cousin
that is retarded. This is when he and I were going up. He and
his partner are good people. Their little girl has a loving
family that I firmly believe no other famliy could have given her. You may not agree on his lifestyle but he does a damn
good job at work or he wouldn’t be where he is now! I am
proud of him and so is the big Italian family we are from.

Doesn’t matter. Should we allow child molesters to adopt, provided of course that they are only permitted to adopt those children with whom they are not attracted. For instance, should we allow a man who is attracted to little blonde girls to adopt a boy if we knew that the boy had virtually no chance of being abused. I mean, as long as the person who is adopting is nice, works hard, helps others… we should then overlook his attraction to 10 yr old blonde girls.

 

[LilyM]

I realize this is an old thread but I happened to stumble upon
it. Mr. Motola is my cousin and whatever choices he has
made in his life is really no concern of anyone here. Yes we are Catholics and so is he. He has always gone to church, went
to a Catholic college and always giving his time to a cousin
that is retarded. This is when he and I were going up. He and
his partner are good people. Their little girl has a loving
family that I firmly believe no other famliy could have given her. You may not agree on his lifestyle but he does a damn
good job at work or he wouldn’t be where he is now! I am
proud of him and so is the big Italian family we are from.

Sorry, it’s not just one or a few people who disagree with his lifestyle - it is the Catholic Church that for 2,000 years has very consistently taught against it. And God’s word, the Bible, that for thousands of years before that did the same.

It is only in the last 20 or so years that the teaching has become watered down ‘out of the hardness of your hearts’ as Jesus said.

If your cousin receives Communion when he attends church that is grave matter and possibly a mortal sin. As someone in a prominent position in a Catholic charity he is a representative of the Church that runs that charity. As a person who proudly and publicly flouts the teachings of said church he is unworthy to be a representative of it regardless of what skills he does have.

I would say the same of any priest or nun who flouts church teaching by giving him communion or counselling him to remain in his relationship or adopt a child.

I’m glad he’s made you proud. You should want him to make you (and God) even prouder by being a FAITHFUL Catholic in all respects.

 

[PantherLake]

I understand how you feel LilyM but he is family and
the christian way is not to “disowen” your family.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Matthew 18:6-10 comes to mind

"Whoever causes one of these little ones 5 who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.7 6 Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, 7 cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or crippled than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire.9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.10 8 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, 9 for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father.

 

[urban-hermit]

I realize this is an old thread but I happened to stumble upon
it. Mr. Motola is my cousin and whatever choices he has
made in his life is really no concern of anyone here. Yes we are Catholics and so is he. He has always gone to church, went
to a Catholic college and always giving his time to a cousin
that is retarded. This is when he and I were going up. He and
his partner are good people. Their little girl has a loving
family that I firmly believe no other famliy could have given her. You may not agree on his lifestyle but he does a damn
good job at work or he wouldn’t be where he is now! I am
proud of him and so is the big Italian family we are from.

Hi PantherLake - I understand you’re wanting to defend a family member, but my 2 points are that 1) he is a public figure representing a Catholic organization, and 2) there is a Catholic principle at stake. So it is not simply a matter that his private life is being criticized and he is under personal attack. He is in a public state of contradiction, because of his position in the Catholic agency whilst living in a manner which contradicts Catholic morality.

I understand you feel he is a “good person”, and in a way maybe he is - you know better than I do. But there is an issue of morality here. You and he may not agree with it, but it is not something that you can really contest on a Catholic basis. If he does not go along with the Catholic teaching on this, he really is in a state of public contradiction. Doing good in other areas cannot change that fact. Helping people with charity and setting a good example morally go hand in hand - they are not 2 separate realities but part of an integrated whole.

 

[Brendan]

I understand how you feel LilyM but he is family and
the christian way is not to “disowen” your family.

No need to disown him, in fact that’s that last thing anyone wants.

What you need to do, what we need to do, and most importanly what HE needs to do is to disown his ACTIONS.

 

[Strummer]

Hi PantherLake - I understand you’re wanting to defend a family member, but my 2 points are that…

A fine, rational, and certainly charitable explanation, u-h. Well, done.

I wonder, tho, if this issue starts to abut the idea of God’s responsibility in creating homosexuals? It’s not like stealing or adultry which is completely in the realm of personal choice. And, I realize that BEING a homosexual is not a sin (though considered “disordered”, an odd choice of words as it occurs throughout Nature) but homosexual ACTS are sin. I get that. What I have difficulty understanding is why God would intentionally create certain individuals to be automatically disconnected from the human experience He created for His glory.

At this point, I do not have any answers, only questions. Prayer about this tells me peace is out there but I haven’t found it yet.

 

[urban-hermit]

Thanks Strummer :tiphat:

Your questions are interesting - but we better start a new thread if we want to delve into that (see post # 84 from the moderator around the time of this thread’s demise).

It seems any thread that touches upon the issue of homosexuality is extremely prone to going off topic, so let’s be a joy to the hearts of our dear long-suffering moderators and keep this one from crashing and burning (again).

A fine, rational, and certainly charitable explanation, u-h. Well, done.

I wonder, tho, if this issue starts to abut the idea of God’s responsibility in creating homosexuals? It’s not like stealing or adultry which is completely in the realm of personal choice. And, I realize that BEING a homosexual is not a sin (though considered “disordered”, an odd choice of words as it occurs throughout Nature) but homosexual ACTS are sin. I get that. What I have difficulty understanding is why God would intentionally create certain individuals to be automatically disconnected from the human experience He created for His glory.

At this point, I do not have any answers, only questions. Prayer about this tells me peace is out there but I haven’t found it yet.

 

[goofyjim]

It appears you believe that same-sex attraction will not color any decisions that a person makes. I think you’re being naive.

Whereas the Catechism states that this attraction is a disorder, we must believe that it is.

Would you put a person with a pedephlia disorder in charge of a daycare center, or any organization that concerns itself with the future of children?

Would you put a person with an untreated bi-polar disorder in charge of any organization?

I hope not.

It is a disorder - it colors many decisions, as disorders do.
It is thinking in a way that is not in line with the Word of God and therefore, the church. It, for many, CAN be treated. And if you are a practicing Catholic it is your obligation to sincerely attempt to change your mind and have the mind of the church when it comes to the teachings and dogmas. And if you cannot change your mind, then at least be silent about it and pray for the grace to live God’s Word.

We don’t get to demand a response from God when WE don’t understand the teaching. We are called to believe and trust and keep the faith; and the awareness, thru our humility, MAY be given to us.

We believe because God says so. And God’s Church say’s so.

If you want to have the mind of the church on this, and get to know WHY the church teaches what it does, get the CD
by Doctor and Deacon Bob McDonald
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=915
It’s a good start to understanding the psychological, scientific and medical research re: homosexual tendencies.

God bless,
Keep the faith,
Angel

Same sex attraction perse is not an illness that colors one’s thinking. One need not go for therapy if one is not acting on these attractions.

 

[goofyjim]

Are you really trying to say that a homosexual person is powerless to live a chaste life? That, while a heterosexual person can accomplish a chaste life, a homosexual person cannot?

Homosexuality is a disorder, left handedness is not. Disorders require treatment, left handiness does not.

The Church is quite correct when it states that a person does not choose to be homosexual (like a person does not choose to be an alcoholic). We all have crosses that we do not choose. We all have disordered impulses, we are a fallen race.

But a person does choose to act or not act on their disordered impulses. They choose to engage or resist sin.

Homosexual acts are, per the Church, intrisically immoral. There are no circumstances when a homosexual act could be moral.

I, for one, am not arrogant enough to claim that I know more about morality that the Enternal Body of Christ, so I accept that.

And as part of that acceptance comes the holy duty to help those who publicly declare such an afflicition.

It’s “Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin”, one cannot love the sinner without Hating the sin.

Why would anyone want to do less than hate sin?

God does.

If all there is is the orientation itself there is no need for treatment.

 

[homewardbound]

I think he shouldn’t be the head of a Catholic organization when he’s living his life full of sin. The story was probably “leaked” because people who aren’t afraid to stand up for their faith actually stood up for whats right. Very rare in this society unfortunately.

I guess because too many Christians are being led astray by falling into societies myths on sin instead of listening to God.

Does the Catholic Church really teach that homosexuality is a genetic thing and not a choice?(someone said that in this thread)

Also, can a homosexual be a practicing Catholic? I mean, they couldn’t partake in communion could they?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

If you are expcting any action on this note the latest interview with his bishop the stylings of Abp. Niederauer

…how would you work with someone?

Archbishop Niederauer: I would ask them to explain for me what they base their difference of opinion on. I would try to explain the teaching of the Church. I would ask what the difficulties are. I would ask for a kind of dialog, an exchange, in which there would be an openness to understanding where the person – other person – is coming from, but also an openness on their part to the longstanding tradition of the Church, the teaching which has been tested by a lot of generations and a lot of centuries. So I think – I think – the dialog is what’s important, that we don’t just write each other off and walk away