Sanders Thread

[Darryl1958]

I think one can invest and still be a hoarder. I can take all my wealth and put it all in spiders and that by itself is not a bad thing, since it provides money to the capital markets. On the other hand, if I use the income from the spiders for nothing but selfish purposes, there is nothing noble or morally desirable about that.

The moment that a capitalists starts hoarding, he is no longer a capitalist.
He is a hoarder, and even bag ladies can be hoarders.

The bigger point is that there is something morally desirable about investing. It is ennobling and it channels the energies and the ingenuity of the most successful and industrious among us to find out what people want, and to supply them a need.

The only socialists economies that are in any way functional are in fact economies that give capitalism and capitalists their due respect. The moment that class warfare enters into the equation, and populists appeal to the resentments of the Occupy Wall Street crowd, the goose that lays the golden egg is cooked, and equality is defined as everyone equally poor.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The moment that a capitalists starts hoarding, he is no longer a capitalist.
He is a hoarder, and even bag ladies can be hoarders.

I would not say that is true. After all, one can argue that Apple is hoarding cash and they are certainly capitalist. Whether they ought to be hoarding so much cash is a reasonable question. There are some who would argue that they ought to find a use for the cash or give it back to the shareholders to whom it belongs.

The bigger point is that there is something morally desirable about investing. It is ennobling and it channels the energies and the ingenuity of the most successful and industrious among us to find out what people want, and to supply them a need.

In and of itself, investing is neither morally desirable or undesirable. It depends on what is done. If an investor opens an abortion clinic, that is an investment but not a morally desirable one.

The only socialists economies that are in any way functional are in fact economies that give capitalism and capitalists their due respect. The moment that class warfare enters into the equation, and populists appeal to the resentments of the Occupy Wall Street crowd, the goose that lays the golden egg is cooked, and equality is defined as everyone equally poor.

Part of the problem in the United States is that we don’t have true capitalism. We have crony capitalism. While I am in no way a Bernie fan, he is correct in that there has been a way to cozy relationship between Wall Street and Washington. Wall Street firms don’t pay Hillary big bucks because they believe in competition.

 

[Peter_J]

Do you not understand that Roe V Wade stripped the rights of the states to vote on the legality of abortion.

***Currently states have very limited rights to legislate abortion. ***

Roe broke down pregnancy in trimesters.

States may not limit abortion in the first trimester. Certain limits may happen in the second trimester, finally the states may limit abortion in the third trimester, but it needs to remain legal for life and health reasons.

I believe it’s actually worse than that, wrt second trimester abortions.

 

[Darryl1958]

I would not say that is true. After all, one can argue that Apple is hoarding cash and they are certainly capitalist.

And Bill Gates could rape and Microsoft would still be a capitalist venture.
It is not that capitalists do not engage in vices. Yet the vices do not define what capitalism is.
Capitalism is not rape, nor is it hoarding either, even though capitalists may well be both rapists and hoarders, or neither.
Presenting capitalists as hoarders though, fuels the populist resentment that Sanders is building his campaign off of.

Whether they ought to be hoarding so much cash is a reasonable question. There are some who would argue that they ought to find a use for the cash or give it back to the shareholders to whom it belongs.

People are free to make such arguments and moral judgments against rich people in general. To the extent that people act on such moral judgments, as Sander’s supporters might like him to do, they are engaging in anti-capitalist activities, as if vice surfeits any right to private property.
Without a proper respect for the boundaries of the private sphere, the goose is cooked, and that means no more eggs of gold.

In and of itself, investing is neither morally desirable or undesirable. It depends on what is done. If an investor opens an abortion clinic, that is an investment but not a morally desirable one.

Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton would definitely disagree with your moral judgment on their sacred cow of abortion clinics…
But it is indeed morally desirable to have a system that harnesses the abilities of the most ingenious and enterprising among us to find ways to meet real needs of the people, to the benefit inclusive of others. This defines win/win. Charity aims for as much. To the extent that capitalism succeeds to an extent that alms never have, then this is moral, in general.

Investment does not preclude the need for laws, or the need for a moral code, such as the ones worked out in Judeo-Christian ethics and religion. Even freedom requires parameters in order for people to be truly free.
But in relationship to lesser systems, it is indeed a more moral system. That can be judged on its fruits alone.

Part of the problem in the United States is that we don’t have true capitalism. We have crony capitalism. While I am in no way a Bernie fan, he is correct in that there has been a way to cozy relationship between Wall Street and Washington.

Bigger, more centralized government is not a cure for crony capitalism. The American founding fathers recognized the limits of human nature, and chose a model for the diffusion of power, in order that it would be much more difficult for cronies to garner control.
Sanders message panders to the resentments, without recognizing that to the extent that he succeeds, crony capitalism becomes all the stronger in their influence. Socialists controlling the levers of power does not destroy crony capitalism. They either usurps the power for themselves, or empower them in order to reap the benefits, again for themselves.

Wall Street firms don’t pay Hillary big bucks because they believe in competition.

Of course not.
That does not change the fact that Jesus was not anti-rich, or that capitalism is a moral system.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Precisely. And let’s be clear: the church doesn’t support unfettered capitalism for a reason.

Trickle-down economics has done little but add to the growing bulge of the lower class. Sadly, many with wealth don’t invest in endeavors that benefit those at the bottom – they permit poverty to escalate while hoarding.

Read The Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy by Dr. Christopher Lasch. A truly prophetic book about the decline of American culture.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Read The Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy by Dr. Christopher Lasch. A truly prophetic book about the decline of American culture.

So is Humanae Virae by Pope Paul VI, though in a very different way. He put the blame for the whole “culture of death” on contraception, and one can see he is right if one reads the encyclical.

 

[Peccavi]

Curious when Jesus attacks the Rich the US Catholics rise up to defend them. That is why I am no longer Catholic but have returned to the pre-Pauline messianic church. Jesus said it is far easier for a camel to thread its way through the Eye of a Needle ( a narrow gate in Jerusalem) than for a rich person to get to heaven…not impossible but highly unlikely. Get out of that one !

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Here is what UNSCOM found long before Bush took office.

According to former U.N. inspector David Kay, Iraq spent over $10 billion during the 1980s in an attempt to enrich uranium and build a nuclear weapon. However, the Agency concludes that as of December, 1998, “There were no indications to suggest that Iraq was successful in its attempt to produce nuclear weapons,” or “that there remains in Iraq any physical capability for the production of amounts of weapons-usable nuclear material of any practical significance.” However, the IAEA did find that “Iraq was at, or close to, the threshold of success in such areas as the production of [highly enriched uranium] … and the fabrication of the explosive package for a nuclear weapon.” Despite the fact that the facilities and nuclear material had been destroyed or removed, as early as 1996 the IAEA concluded that “the know-how and expertise acquired by Iraqi scientists and engineers could provide an adequate base for reconstituting a nuclear-weapons-oriented program.”

Therefore, the Commission concluded, “it has not been possible to verify” Iraq’s statements about the extent and nature of its biological weapons program.

Extensive BW program: Iraq had an extensive BW program from 1973 until at least 1991. In mid-1995, Iraq admitted that it had weaponized BW agents, but claimed that the entire BW program had been in “obliterated” in 1991 and that all BW weapons had been destroyed and all bulk BW agents had been deactivated. The Commission found, however, that the evidence produced in support of this claim was not credible, and that Iraq “retained suitable growth media, BW facilities, production equipment, teams of expert personnel, and the essential technical knowledge” after 1991.

Bulk production: In July, 1995, Iraq acknowledged that between 1988 and 1991, it had produced two BW agents in bulk: botulinum toxin and Bacillus anthracis spores (anthrax). Iraq reported 19,180 liters of botulinum toxin (10-20 fold concentrated) and 8445 liters of Bacillus anthracis spores (10 fold concentrated).

UNSCOM found, however, that “bulk warfare agent production appears to be considerably understated,” given the resources available to Iraq’s BW program, including growth media and fermenter capacity. The Commission said that the production rate of Botulinum toxin could be as much as double the stated amount, and 3 times greater than that stated for Bacillus anthracis spores.

Iraq claimed that it unilaterally destroyed more than 7500 liters of the Botulinum toxin and 3412 liters of Bacillus anthracis spores in 1991; UNSCOM noted that there was not evidence to support quantities claimed to be destroyed. The report concludes “the Commission has no confidence that all bulk agents have been destroyed… and that a BW capability does not exist in Iraq.”

Iraq also claims to have produced lesser quantities of clostridium perfringens spores, ricin, and wheat cover smut.

**BW Warheads: **Iraq claimed to have produced 25 Al-Hussein missile warheads and filled them with BW agents. The Commission found that there was no credible evidence to show that only 25 missiles were produced and filled. Iraq declared that the 25 missiles were unilaterally destroyed; the Commission found enough physical evidence to account for the declared quantities of BW warheads, but the location of the remnants were inconsistent with Iraq’s story.

BW bombs: Iraq declared that 200 R-400 aerial bombs were manufactured for BW purposes, but acknowledged that the numbers of bombs filled with particular agents (100 with botulinum toxin, 50 with bacillus anthracis spores, and 7 with aflatoxin) were “guesses.” UNSCOM did find evidence of the destruction of some BW bombs at the site declared by Iraq, but found that the remnants account for less than one third of the bombs Iraq claims to have destroyed. In addition, UNSCOM found evidence of R-400A bombs carrying BW at an airfield where no BW weapons were declared.

Aerosol Generators: Iraq developed aerosol generators for the dispersal of BW agents by modifying helicopter-borne commercial chemical insecticide disseminators. Although Iraq claimed the devices were ineffective, UNSCOM received documentation that they were successfully field tested. Interview evidence suggests that there were 12 devices produced; none were destroyed by UNSCOM.

Remaining Bacterial Growth Media: UNSCOM determined that there remained substantial bacterial growth media imported into Iraq which remains unaccounted for: 460 kg. of casien; 80 kg. of thioglocollate broth; 520 kg. of yeast extract; and 1100 kg of peptone. The report says that “the amounts that are ‘missing’ are significant, and would be sufficient to produce quantities of agent comparable to that already declared by Iraq.”

fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/990125/dis-bio.htm

useful post

 

[jediliz]

Curious when Jesus attacks the Rich the US Catholics rise up to defend them. That is why I am no longer Catholic but have returned to the pre-Pauline messianic church. Jesus said it is far easier for a camel to thread its way through the Eye of a Needle ( a narrow gate in Jerusalem) than for a rich person to get to heaven…not impossible but highly unlikely. Get out of that one !

He was talking about the selfish rich…like the rich man who did not feed the beggar Lazarus in his parable. He was not saying that having $ will make you unable to enter. Btw, Nazarene church was founded 1908.

 

[estesbob]

So is Humanae Virae by Pope Paul VI, though in a very different way. He put the blame for the whole “culture of death” on contraception, and one can see he is right if one reads the encyclical.

Let’s Take care not to limit the churches view of the culture of death to contraception :

While it is true that the taking of life not yet born or in its final stages is sometimes marked by a mistaken sense of altruism and human compassion, it cannot be denied that such a culture of death, taken as a whole, betrays a completely individualistic concept of freedom, which ends up by becoming the freedom of “the strong” against the weak who have no choice but to submit.
IOANNES PAULUS PP. II

EVANGELIUM VITAE

I think you may have you Popes mixed up as Pope Paul VI does not use the term the "culture of death "in Humana Vitae nor is there any evidence he ever used the term

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Let’s Take care not to limit the churches view of the culture of death to contraception :

While it is true that the taking of life not yet born or in its final stages is sometimes marked by a mistaken sense of altruism and human compassion, it cannot be denied that such a culture of death, taken as a whole, betrays a completely individualistic concept of freedom, which ends up by becoming the freedom of “the strong” against the weak who have no choice but to submit.
IOANNES PAULUS PP. II

EVANGELIUM VITAE

I think you may have you Popes mixed up as Pope Paul VI does not use the term the "culture of death "in Humana Vitae nor is there any evidence he ever used the term

No, it’s not limited to contraception; Paul VI simply said that contraception is what started it. Humane Vitae is very prophetic about what would happen once people began to contracept.

I do know JP II is the one who coined the term “culture of death,” but when he did, he was making reference to the predictions made by Paul VI.

Thank you! Have a blessed Sunday!

 

[stinkcat_14]

And Bill Gates could rape and Microsoft would still be a capitalist venture.
It is not that capitalists do not engage in vices. Yet the vices do not define what capitalism is.
Capitalism is not rape, nor is it hoarding either, even though capitalists may well be both rapists and hoarders, or neither.
Presenting capitalists as hoarders though, fuels the populist resentment that Sanders is building his campaign off of.

To be fair, I am not presenting capitalists as hoarders. However, it is a problem that capitalists often have to deal with. Jesus took a dim view of rich people who were hoarders. We need to be mindful of that.

People are free to make such arguments and moral judgments against rich people in general. To the extent that people act on such moral judgments, as Sander’s supporters might like him to do, they are engaging in anti-capitalist activities, as if vice surfeits any right to private property.
Without a proper respect for the boundaries of the private sphere, the goose is cooked, and that means no more eggs of gold.

There is nothing in Sanders proposed economic policies that would violate Church teaching. The Church leaves it to our own prudential judgement as to whether we ought to support such policies or not. Criticizing the downsides of our current crony capitalist system is not being anti-capitalist.

Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton would definitely disagree with your moral judgment on their sacred cow of abortion clinics…
But it is indeed morally desirable to have a system that harnesses the abilities of the most ingenious and enterprising among us to find ways to meet real needs of the people, to the benefit inclusive of others. This defines win/win. Charity aims for as much. To the extent that capitalism succeeds to an extent that alms never have, then this is moral, in general.

Capitalism is like work. Something that we do because it is useful. Neither is moral or immoral. The actions that we take can be either moral or immoral. What we do with the fruit of work or capitalism can be moral or immoral.

Investment does not preclude the need for laws, or the need for a moral code, such as the ones worked out in Judeo-Christian ethics and religion. Even freedom requires parameters in order for people to be truly free.
But in relationship to lesser systems, it is indeed a more moral system. That can be judged on its fruits alone.

We cannot say that capitalism is a more moral system because pure capitalism has never really been tried. What has been tried is a mix of government and markets. While a pure command economy is bad, there is a range of mixed economies where desirability of different mixes is debatable.

Bigger, more centralized government is not a cure for crony capitalism. The American founding fathers recognized the limits of human nature, and chose a model for the diffusion of power, in order that it would be much more difficult for cronies to garner control.

The problem in this election is that nobody is running to change our crony capitalist system. The one contribution that Sanders has made is that our system is rigged for the crony capitalists. He is not wrong in that dimension. I don’t agree with his solutions, but he is the only candidate who has recognized the problem. On the republican side, a leading candidate is a crony capitalist himself. He would have never made his billions without the government.

Sanders message panders to the resentments, without recognizing that to the extent that he succeeds, crony capitalism becomes all the stronger in their influence. Socialists controlling the levers of power does not destroy crony capitalism. They either usurps the power for themselves, or empower them in order to reap the benefits, again for themselves.

Of course not.
That does not change the fact that Jesus was not anti-rich, or that capitalism is a moral system.

Jesus gave significant warning to the rich. There is danger in wealth. I think the problem in the US is many of us are rich and are just too dumb to know it.