Sauk City-area priests inspiring some, alienating others

[po18guy]

Do you really believe that your generation was the “worst ever” or that it was the only one in history to love pleasure? If so then your really don’t have a very good grasp of history. I, who do study history can assure you that your was far from the worst and the same love of pleasure and slacking of supposed responsibilities was a common accusation against all generations of youth by their elders. I doubt that their ever was a single generation of young people that ever disdained pleasure and willfully made self sacrifice on their own without having been forced to by some external circumstance like war. People, by nature like to feel good and don’t relish hardships. I’ve always felt that the baby boomers are much too hard on themselves in their old age in not having lived up to the supposed greatness of previous generations. If you look at history, you’ll see that those supposedly great generations had a lot of flaws themselves and were by no means perfect.

I’m honestly disturbed by the levels of fear mongering, despair, and apocalyptic pessimism that I find by people who post to Catholic forums like this. Almost ever comment is some self wallowing litany of pity at supposed wrongs found in society, the Church, or among fellow Catholics. If this type of dreary pessimism and self pities are a hallmark of the new, revitalized generation of “JP II Catholics” then I’ll gladly take the old Paul VI generation with all their faults and foibles any day.

Methinks you misread my intent! As to history, name another generation ever that aborted its successors. In the tens of millions. And counting.

As to wallowing, I leave that to the swine. What did JPII have to say about my generation? He prayed for it, but focused on youth, who are the hope of the Church.

Let’s not overanalyze this, or you’ll have to berate Tom Brokaw for calling the WWII generation the “greatest generation”.

 

[JRRTFAN]

I Although some might jump for joy at the thought of doctrinal “orthodoxy” coming back into vogue, the diocese also should take care that they don’t empty out the churches in attempting to do this. After all you could have the most “orthodox” priest deliver the most “orthodox” homilies and serve the most reverent masses, but would good would it do if their was no congregation left to here him because they had all been scandalized by his extremism.

The churches are being emptied out as people bolt for communities that preach a certain moral standard. Go into any, and I mean any, non-denominational mega-church in your community and ask for a show of hands of ex-Catholics, then listen to the sermon. It won’t be Catholic in theology but it will state strong dogmas the likes of which are almost never preached in parishes. People go there and leave the Church to obtain a moral compass and be around like minded people.

Catholic theology is not “extremism” it is biblical truth and we’re better off following it than following some guy like Abshp Rembert Weakland who never met a Catholic dogma he liked.

 

[manualman]

Can you tell me more what formation you and your generation did receive? I was away from the church at that time and don’t know what was really happening.

I was born in 1970 and have at times been tempted to boomer bashing as seen here. I’ve come to recognize an old GK Chesterton quote in them: “Reformers are always right about what is wrong, but usually wrong about what it right.”

There WAS a big shift in emphasis and a rejection of impersonal rigidly systematic religion. Not all of that was bad since God isn’t a system or a doctrine, but a loving Father. Unfortunately, the revolutionaries tended to toss baby Jesus out with the bathwater!

I was born in 1970 and went to catholic schools from 1-8 grades. We did learn quite a bit of Scripture and received our sacraments, but there was an amazing de-emphasis on the reality of sin, the fall and our need for Grace. Intentionally or not, we absolutely got the message that God loved us so much just as we are that we didn’t need any changing (except maybe to volunteer at soup kitchens, retirement homes and homeless shelters more often). There was very little emphasis on prayer, devotions, saints, the necessity of Grace, the transcendence of God. I was the last generation to have nuns as teachers for a few years, but the only vestige of their habit was a head covering and they seemed dazed about what to teach too. Church was very much presented as a gathering of the chosen with the purpose of celebrating ourselves as a community and how lovable we were. In hindsight, it was very narcissistic.

Most of my generation was unintentionally taught that the highest authority is one’s own conscience, but the instructors spent very little time teaching how to make sure that conscience was well formed. As a result the effective message became “do what feels right in your heart.” Predictable anarchy resulted.

For a long time I resented what was done to us. Once you discover the depths of the beauty of the catholic faith you at first suspect that somebody must have been purposely hiding it from you. Over time I recognized that those people weren’t evil, just blinded by the shortcomings in their own upbringing. From that I conclude that we must NOT make the same mistakes they did and overcorrect again. We don’t need to emphasize orthdoxy to the point of ignoring the love of God. Instead, we must stabilize up on the straight and narrow path of recognizing that orthdox teaching done right IS about a loving God. Then we won’t simply veer from the ditch on one side to the ditch on the other side of the path with each succeeding generation.

 

[elts1956]

God drew them. Maybe not in the way you would have approved or liked, but it was God’s work–at least when I was there it was. As for the 40s and 50s, hmmm, I was around in th e 50s. It was standing room only because people were REQUIRED to go to Mass. People did not question ANYTHING. No wonder abuses grew out of that era. No choices for the faithful. I grew up in that era and while I am grateful for some of the basics I learned then, it was NOT a good thing going on in the church at that time. Everything was about condemnation. At least that was my experience. I know that wasn’t true for everyone.

First of all, we are still REQUIRED to go to Mass. Secondly, we didn’t question, because our Faith was greater, in a general way. We also trusted our politicians, blindly, but we had faith. Thirdly, in spite of the sexual abuses, I never once heard a Catholic prelate say one could in good conscience vote for a pro abortion candidate when one with a better pro life record was available. Never once did I hear it is okay for a pro abort pol to recieve the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, because we “don’t really know” what they believe. This in spite of the fact we have Canon 915 of the Church saying pro abort pols who have been warned and have not changed their stance to one of pro life , MAY NOT receive communion.

Yes, we may have been naive, unaware. Perhaps many things other than abuse were happening behind the closed walls of many priestly residences, but we did not have open rebellion by our Bishops against authority in Rome which today leads to many a scandalized and confused Catholic.

 

[vsedriver]

Most of my generation was unintentionally taught that the highest authority is one’s own conscience, but the instructors spent very little time teaching how to make sure that conscience was well formed. As a result the effective message became “do what feels right in your heart.” Predictable anarchy resulted.

I think you hit on a very important mark. I remember being told that I should let my conscience be my guide. Well, I’m here to tell you my conscience sucks in a lot of ways. :hypno:

What I should have been taught was where the Church’s authority lay. So that I could rely on her teaching and truth. This is what I see in some of my non-denomination Christian friends. They aren’t really looking for truth but for what makes them feel good. My best friend once lamented to me that she just wishes she could find a real Bible based church. When I said the Catholic Church was all based on the Bible things got heated. She couldn’t accept the teaching authority of the church. Strangely enough she still likes going to the Catholic Mass from time to time.

We must teach our children the truth of Church’s foundation. Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Teaching Authority

 

[dusty_david]

May God bless this holy and upright bishop and these wonderful priests! They ought to tirelessly make war against the sacrileges and treasons of the revolutionists. It will take years to undo the damage, and the cost will be high. But there is no higher calling than martyrdom.

Viva Cristo Rey!

I was not aware that American Catholics killed priests that they disagreed with. So these priests should prepare for martyrdom? From their own congregations? This is far more exciting than any protestant service!

 

[Tom_8_0_0]

I was not aware that American Catholics killed priests that they disagreed with. So these priests should prepare for martyrdom? From their own congregations? This is far more exciting than any protestant service!

He didn’t say American Catholics killed priests that they disagree with. He said that there is no higher calling than martyrdom… not too hard to discern.

Anyway, I love this story. If people love their faith and love the Mass enough, they won’t care who celebrates it as long as it is done well. I think the traditional form of Mass is a beautiful way to celebrate the Eucharist. I have seen Masses in NO with absurdly loud music, people who go up to sing for little more than a flash in the pan, extraordinary ministers with dirty fingernails (if you’re going to hand people the Body of Jesus Christ, at least clean yourself!!!), and homilies that usually communicate some amusing incident in the life of the priest. I like a homily that reminds me of proper Catholic behavior, the Holy Eucharist given to me by a priest, and holy Catholic music, not just “Christian Praise music”.

 

[manualman]

I have seen … extraordinary ministers with dirty fingernails (if you’re going to hand people the Body of Jesus Christ, at least clean yourself!!!)…

Now there’s a weird sentiment. I’m going to guess you push papers for a living like I do, yes? Fortunately, I’ve learned to repair my own cars, so I can educate you on this one. Dirty grease simpy doesn’t all come off hands, no matter how much you soap or scrape at it. Traces will remain, especially in crevices like nails and broken skin.

Given that Jesus himself selected guys who worked with their hands for a living, I suggest you lighten up a bit.

 

[Tom_8_0_0]

I don’t push papers for a living, I’m 16.

If you wash regularly, yes, your hands will be nice and clean. And if you use the proper device, it is indeed possible to remove dirt and whatnot from beneath the end of your fingernails.

It’s called hygiene. Hygiene is a fascinating modern advance, in which modern people (the Apostles did what they could to be clean; we can do more) use modern technology and such things to clean themselves.

Maybe some new “hip and cool” priest will have a “BC Mass”, complete with dust and dirtiness.

Now you may say “What about missionaries overseas? They can’t keep up with such standards.”

To which I say this: Cleanliness is not a standard, it is a boon upon us modern people which we should take advantage of wherever and whenever we can, particularly in our worship.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

If you wash regularly, yes, your hands will be nice and clean. And if you use the proper device, it is indeed possible to remove dirt and whatnot from beneath the end of your fingernails.

LOL, I don’t think you understood what manualman was saying. I worked in a car garage at one point in my life and I can attest to what he said. If you regularly work on cars you cannot simply wash off the greese. It get into the cracks of your skin, in your cuticles, and under your nails and all the scrubing in the world doesn’t necessary make it all disappear.

It’s called hygiene. Hygiene is a fascinating modern advance, in which modern people (the Apostles did what they could to be clean; we can do more) use modern technology and such things to clean themselves.

Like manualman pointed out, not every profession is squeeky clean. Landscapers, mechanics, etc. have great hygiene its just not possible for them to scrub off every last spec. And if all that scrubbing and lathering up with lava soap doesn’t take it off then it ain’t gonna be passed on on to anyone else.

I can still remember scooping that industrial soap out of the can and scrubbing furiously with a nail brush. Ah memories…

To which I say this: Cleanliness is not a standard, it is a boon upon us modern people which we should take advantage of wherever and whenever we can, particularly in our worship.

Obviously people should always be clean and well presented but I think you’re missing manualman’s basic point that appearances are sometimes deceiving…

 

[Petergee]

Like manualman pointed out, not every profession is squeeky clean. Landscapers, mechanics, etc. have great hygiene its just not possible for them to scrub off every last spec. And if all that scrubbing and lathering up with lava soap doesn’t take it off then it ain’t gonna be passed on on to anyone else.

I can still remember scooping that industrial soap out of the can and scrubbing furiously with a nail brush. Ah memories…

Obviously people should always be clean and well presented but I think you’re missing manualman’s basic point that appearances are sometimes deceiving…

I don’t think Tom 800 was taliing about “every last spec” but about such a gross amount of dirt that it’s obvious even in the split second glance that a communicant gets at the EMHC’s fingernails.

I don’t care what you do for a living, but if you want to sit at a dinner table with me you had better not have obviously dirty fingernails. And you can multiply that a hundredfold if you’re planning on handing me the Body of Christ.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I don’t think Tom 800 was taliing about “every last spec” but about such a gross amount of dirt that it’s obvious even in the split second glance that a communicant gets at the EMHC’s fingernails.

I don’t care what you do for a living, but if you want to sit at a dinner table with me you had better not have obviously dirty fingernails. And you can multiply that a hundredfold if you’re planning on handing me the Body of Christ.

I was responding to the Tom800’s comment that even if someone works on cars for a living that their hands simply need more soap and water. That’s not necessarily true.

Other than that, I don’t think anyone is advocating for dirty hands…

 

[elts1956]

This is nonsense. In terms of numbers of priests per head of Catholic population, the Phillippines is one of the most “priest-poor” countries in the world and the USA is one of the most “priest-rich” countries in the world.

i don’t have any more sources or statistics than you show to say you are mistaken. The US is considered a missionary province because of lack of priests. Seminarians and priests have continually dropped out in a stream since 1960 and we haven’t yet recovered. Don’t know where our Missionary priests are coming from, the Phillipines, or elsewhere, but they are here to help us.

 

[OriginalJS]

This reflects that Catholics have widely varying views and preferences. Some like these developments; others do not. Those who don’t will go elsewhere; those who do will stay and attract like minded Catholics. The diversity seems healthy to me. Those who are offended by female altar servers or masses said in English should have a place to go where they feel comfortable.

 

[Tom_8_0_0]

I was responding to the Tom800’s comment that even if someone works on cars for a living that their hands simply need more soap and water. That’s not necessarily true.

Other than that, I don’t think anyone is advocating for dirty hands…

I just think priests, who tend not to be mechanics or auto-workers, should be the ones giving out the Holy Eucharist.

 

[Indyann]

I just think priests, who tend not to be mechanics or auto-workers, should be the ones giving out the Holy Eucharist.

And you will be entering which seminary?

 

[thealtonroute]

Yeah…I can see some people being offended by these changes. Some people love being eucharistic ministers. It’s probably unreasonable to expect some people to accept changes overnight. But I guess now the Vatican II crowd gets the feeling that many had back in the 1960s when the Latin Mass was discarded. The thing is that eucharistic ministers, girl altar servers, etc. were all brought in by the Church. Laymen didn’t invent these things on their own. The clergy took away the TLM, trashed the altars, and brought in the folk masses and God knows what else. The Vatican II crowd got used to these innovations over the past 40 years or so. I guess what I’m trying to say is that Church leadership itself is responsible for these people being angry that their girl altar servers and eucharistic ministers are being taken away. One minute it’s okay and the next it’s not. The Mass never should have been changed in the 1960s. If it hadn’t, we wouldn’t be dealing with all these problems. But the laymen aren’t to blame in opinion - it’s the Church that is at fault.

 

[Adeodatus]

And you will be entering which seminary?

Not everyone is called to be a priest… you should know that. Everyone, however, is called to hold the Catholic Faith.

The use of EMHCs when there are priests available to distributed the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar is an abuse. I think that’s what Tom is driving at and he’s right… he’s right whether he’s called to married life, the priesthood or the single life. Rectitude of opinion is not dependent upon one’s calling.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I just think priests, who tend not to be mechanics or auto-workers, should be the ones giving out the Holy Eucharist.

What about ordained deacons?

Anyways, if a parish had more than just 2 priests that might be possible but for most parishes it is not practical.

 

[Argh]

Just curious based on what you said, were you a student at that time and are now in your 20s?

My freshman/sophomore year. I’m now 1/4-aged .