Saved by Faith alone

[tm30]

Well aren’t we supposed to emulate Christ?

John 10:25

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The** works** that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness to me;

John 10:32

Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good** works** from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?”

John 10:37

If I am not doing the** works** of my Father, then do not believe me;

John 10:38

but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the** works**, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

Oh, yeah, and then there’s :

Revelation 2:5

Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the** works** you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Revelation 2:23

…And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your** works** deserve.

Revelation 3:2

Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your** works** perfect in the sight of my God.

And the coup de grace:

Revelation 3:15

"`I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

Our level of faith is apparent to Jesus by our works. An absence of works, unless invincibly ignorant to the Bible, is indicative of an absence of faith.

 

[SyCarl]

And that is what Protestants say. We are saved by grace through faith, not by works. But we are saved through faith for works. Faith and works go hand in hand, you can’t have faith without having works, but it is the faith that saves, the works are the evidence and results. So if someone habitually sins it is evidence that he doesn’t truly believe but that decision is not ours to make.
And yes you can lose faith and lose salvation. Not all Protestants believe in once saved always saved.

As for people who have never heard of Jesus, we do not know what happens to them because God hasn’t told us. We try to reach as many as we can but we must trust God. God is just and good. He will always do what is right. I am content to trust that He will do what is right about those who have never heard. It is not my place to try to speculate what God might do, but rather to trust the what He does will be right. He doesn’t owe us any answers even if we really want to know. Trusting him is part of faith.

 

[Syele]

So if you follow those 4 rape, muder, pillage et al is perfectly OK. ?

And , again, how about those poor Souls who died before Christianity was kown outsied of Israel? You seem to worhship a very egotistical God-know my sons name OR ELSE!!!

Wow what an amazing jump from saying these 5 things are important to saying that rape, pillage and murder are ok. Calm down.

Christ alone means that no one gets to the Father except through Christ. Christ was around before he was born on this earth, so your conclusion that it disqualifies all people before His birth is wrong. It also means you must follow and worship Christ. Rapists and Murderers are obviously not following Him and I doubt many of them worship Him either.

 

[estesbob]

As for people who have never heard of Jesus, we do not know what happens to them because God hasn’t told us. We try to reach as many as we can but we must trust God. God is just and good. He will always do what is right. I am content to trust that He will do what is right about those who have never heard. It is not my place to try to speculate what God might do, but rather to trust the what He does will be right. He doesn’t owe us any answers even if we really want to know. Trusting him is part of faith.

Per the Doctine of Sola Fidelis one MUST have faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. It is a doctrine that excludes about 60% of the people on the face of the earth and probably 90% of those who have died since Christ rose from the dead. it is a strange doctine indeed that ca be interperted as we dont know whether this doctine applies to everyone or not.

 

[estesbob]

Wow what an amazing jump from saying these 5 things are important to saying that rape, pillage and murder are ok. Calm down.

Christ alone means that no one gets to the Father except through Christ. Christ was around before he was born on this earth, so your conclusion that it disqualifies all people before His birth is wrong. It also means you must follow and worship Christ. Rapists and Murderers are obviously not following Him and I doubt many of them worship Him either.

But if they have Faith in Jesus they are saved -correct? Either works matter or they dont.

 

[Syele]

But if they have Faith in Jesus they are saved -correct? Either works matter or they dont.

Ok I’m getting lost. Is your intention to discuss Sola Fide, Sola Christo, one of the other 5 solas, all of them or OSAS?

Sola Fide doesn’t necessarily = OSAS. I can’t answer you properly if you are so vague.

Of course works matter, Antinominism is heresy. The question is HOW they matter.

 

[Syele]

Per the Doctine of Sola Fidelis one MUST have faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. It is a doctrine that excludes about 60% of the people on the face of the earth and probably 90% of those who have died since Christ rose from the dead. it is a strange doctine indeed that ca be interperted as we dont know whether this doctine applies to everyone or not.

I’d say it’s quite a bit more broad than “Outside the Catholic Church there is no Salvation” even with qualifications on that, the protestant belief is more lenient than the Catholic one.

 

[estesbob]

I’d say it’s quite a bit more broad than “Outside the Catholic Church there is no Salvation” even with qualifications on that, the protestant belief is more lenient than the Catholic one.

You evidently dont understand Catholic Teaching on Salvation, Per Catholic Doctrine the mythical man in Africa who never knew Jesus is saved because he lived a just life-a life that emulated Faith in Jesus whether he knew his name or not. Catholic Doctrine also allows for the salvation of those who have heard of Jesus and rejected him as the Son of God. It is not their lack of Faith in Jesus that is the problem-it is their invincble ignorance -so again we look at the life they live and see if it is Christ centered even if they dont acknowledge him…

As far as Salvation only through the Church that is correct. that is because Christ and his Church are one and the same. I am sure you would agree that salvation is through Christ and accordingly thorugh his Church. Where the misconception comes in confus ion between belonging to the Church (which is not a requirement) and being saved through the Church (which can occur whehter one is a memeber or not.

 

[estesbob]

Ok I’m getting lost. Is your intention to discuss Sola Fide, Sola Christo, one of the other 5 solas, all of them or OSAS?

Sola Fide doesn’t necessarily = OSAS. I can’t answer you properly if you are so vague.

Of course works matter, Antinominism is heresy. The question is HOW they matter.

So one can have faith in Jesus and still be condemned to eternal hellfire becuase of his actions? Luther, for one., would disagree with you. And if one can have Faith in Jesus and still be condemend becuase of his actions we are no longer talking about salvation by faith alone, are we?

 

[SyCarl]

Per the Doctine of Sola Fidelis one MUST have faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. It is a doctrine that excludes about 60% of the people on the face of the earth and probably 90% of those who have died since Christ rose from the dead. it is a strange doctine indeed that ca be interperted as we dont know whether this doctine applies to everyone or not.

We are told that we are to make disciples of all the nations. We are told that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. We are told that that there is salavation in other other, that there is no other name given by which we must be saved. This is what God has told us. We have heard and must have faith. As for others who have not heard or believed, I trust in God’s justice, goodness and love. I do not pretend to know His though or His ways. Do you not trust Him to do right without knowing how He will do it or will you only trust Him if He tells you what you want to know?

 

[estesbob]

We are told that we are to make disciples of all the nations. We are told that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. We are told that that there is salavation in other other, that there is no other name given by which we must be saved. This is what God has told us. We have heard and must have faith. As for others who have not heard or believed, I trust in God’s justice, goodness and love. I do not pretend to know His though or His ways. Do you not trust Him to do right without knowing how He will do it or will you only trust Him if He tells you what you want to know?

So you beleive in a doctrine that does not apply to everyone.A strange(and meaningless) doctrine indeed.

BTW-Does this trusing him to do right also apply to Jews who know of him and but do not beleive he is the Messiah?

 

[MariaG]

You evidently dont understand Catholic Teaching on Salvation, Per Catholic Doctrine the mythical man in Africa who never knew Jesus is saved because he lived a just life-a life that emulated Faith in Jesus whether he knew his name or not. Catholic Doctrine also allows for the salvation of those who have heard of Jesus and rejected him as the Son of God. It is not their lack of Faith in Jesus that is the problem-it is their invincble ignorance -so again we look at the life they live and see if it is Christ centered even if they dont acknowledge him…

As far as Salvation only through the Church that is correct. that is because Christ and his Church are one and the same. I am sure you would agree that salvation is through Christ and accordingly thorugh his Church. Where the misconception comes in confus ion between belonging to the Church (which is not a requirement) and being saved through the Church (which can occur whehter one is a memeber or not.

Yes this is very true, even though there are those Catholics who in wishing to stress the “may be saved” interpret it as possible but so unlikely that it will never happen, there are less of those Catholics than the Protestants who believe that the man in the depths of Africa who literally never heard of Christ is going to hell because he never accepted Him as his personal savoir. Not all Protestants believe that, but a good number more than Catholics who narrowly interpret “no salvation outside the church”

God bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

You evidently dont understand Catholic Teaching on Salvation, Per Catholic Doctrine the mythical man in Africa who never knew Jesus is saved because he lived a just life-a life that emulated Faith in Jesus whether he knew his name or not. Catholic Doctrine also allows for the salvation of those who have heard of Jesus and rejected him as the Son of God. It is not their lack of Faith in Jesus that is the problem-it is their invincble ignorance -so again we look at the life they live and see if it is Christ centered even if they dont acknowledge him…

or perhaps YOU don’t get the protestant one. I have never been taught that the man who never heard of Jesus but has faith according to what he does know is not saved. Your “mythical man in Africa who never knew Jesus” is not necessarily going to hell.

As far as Salvation only through the Church that is correct. that is because Christ and his Church are one and the same. I am sure you would agree that salvation is through Christ and accordingly thorugh his Church. Where the misconception comes in confus ion between belonging to the Church (which is not a requirement) and being saved through the Church (which can occur whehter one is a memeber or not.

Replace “Church” with “Christ” and you pretty much have the Protestant belief on this.

 

[strngrnrth]

If anyone here believes any of the following, please tell me and let me know why. I find this topic very confusing.
A. Before people hear of Jesus, they are judged by actions, and no one can measure up. Once one believes, he or she will be judged as one who always did the right thing. However, a very bad life is evidence that he or she is only faking belief.
B. People who haven’t heard of Jesus are judged by actions, and those who usually do right are saved. But that’s not most people. Believers are judged on a more lenient scale, as they can have the privilege of repeatedly asking to start again with a clean slate.
C. People who haven’t heard of Jesus are judged by actions, and one of their actions is having an attitude that makes them unwilling to believe in Jesus, which is why no one ever found them to tell them: they wouldn’t have believed it anyway. Those who are willing to believe earn all the merit they need by believing.
D. Everyone is equally bad and there is nothing anyone can do about it. We can’t possibly please God. That’s why He sent His Son to die for us. In so doing, Jesus replaced the whole human race and let the humans take His place in Heaven. But it is only open to those who believe it. God doesn’t owe anyone anything, so He is in his rights not to make sure everyone hears about this offer.
E. Other (explain).
Thank you.

 

[estesbob]

or perhaps YOU don’t get the protestant one. I have never been taught that the man who never heard of Jesus but has faith according to what he does know is not saved. Your “mythical man in Africa who never knew Jesus” is not necessarily going to hell.

But the doctrine itslef does not allow for this.

Replace “Church” with “Christ” and you pretty much have the Protestant belief on this.

There is no need for any substitution-they are one and the same.

 

[estesbob]

If anyone here believes any of the following, please tell me and let me know why. I find this topic very confusing.
A. Before people hear of Jesus, they are judged by actions, and no one can measure up. Once one believes, he or she will be judged as one who always did the right thing. However, a very bad life is evidence that he or she is only faking belief.
B. People who haven’t heard of Jesus are judged by actions, and those who usually do right are saved. But that’s not most people. Believers are judged on a more lenient scale, as they can have the privilege of repeatedly asking to start again with a clean slate.
C. People who haven’t heard of Jesus are judged by actions, and one of their actions is having an attitude that makes them unwilling to believe in Jesus, which is why no one ever found them to tell them: they wouldn’t have believed it anyway. Those who are willing to believe earn all the merit they need by believing.
D. Everyone is equally bad and there is nothing anyone can do about it. We can’t possibly please God. That’s why He sent His Son to die for us. In so doing, Jesus replaced the whole human race and let the humans take His place in Heaven. But it is only open to those who believe it. God doesn’t owe anyone anything, so He is in his rights not to make sure everyone hears about this offer.
E. Other (explain).
Thank you.

Faith and works are so intertwined you can not seperate the two. To say man is saved by works alone is as erroneous as saying one is saved by Faith alone. The man who is just and lives his life in a manner taught us to us by Jesus is saved becuase he has Faith in Christ even though he does not know who he is. His faith is just as strong as Chrisitans who likewise strive to live a Christ centered life.

 

[Syele]

But the doctrine itslef does not allow for this.

According to whom? The reformers? the remonstrants? Luther? Calvin? the Cambridge Declaration? Someone else?

There is no need for any substitution-they are one and the same.

You believe the protestant belief about who is saved is identical to the Catholic one??

 

[MariaG]

or perhaps YOU don’t get the protestant one. I have never been taught that the man who never heard of Jesus but has faith according to what he does know is not saved. Your “mythical man in Africa who never knew Jesus” is not necessarily going to hell.

Replace “Church” with “Christ” and you pretty much have the Protestant belief on this.

But just as there are those Catholics who narrowly interpret no salvation outside the church, there are a good many more non-Catholic Protestants who would say the man in Africa is condemned to hell.

Not most. But certainly most of the fundamental crowd.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[tm30]

And that is what Protestants say. We are saved by grace through faith, not by works. But we are saved through faith for works. Faith and works go hand in hand, you can’t have faith without having works, but it is the faith that saves, the works are the evidence and results. So if someone habitually sins it is evidence that he doesn’t truly believe but that decision is not ours to make.
And yes you can lose faith and lose salvation. Not all Protestants believe in once saved always saved.

As for people who have never heard of Jesus, we do not know what happens to them because God hasn’t told us. We try to reach as many as we can but we must trust God. God is just and good. He will always do what is right. I am content to trust that He will do what is right about those who have never heard. It is not my place to try to speculate what God might do, but rather to trust the what He does will be right. He doesn’t owe us any answers even if we really want to know. Trusting him is part of faith.

So then there’s no reason for Protestants who do not preach “once saved, always saved” NOT to reunite with Roman Catholicism. If the great theological beef has come down to semantics, why remain outside of Mother Church?

 

[MariaG]

You believe the protestant belief about who is saved is identical to the Catholic one??

I do, yes. The mainstream Protestant one that you espouse, (not the fundamental one I referred to earlier) is an articulation of the “no salvation outside the church” doctrine, although the understanding of “church” is not there, the belief is very similar in my opinion.

We have to be careful though because this belief can be twisted to near unrecognizaleness by Protestant and Catholic alike, through a “it doesn’t matter what we believe” kind of thing, to make it practically meaningless.

God Bless,
Maria