Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Another “latter day scripture” teaching the pre-mortal existence…"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. . . . For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 93:29, 33).
Really what it is saying is a ‘‘Pre-Immortal existence’’ in a spirit!

Jesus said to the father about his disciples>As you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world.>John 17:18

As we Know Jesus creates and does eveything through the father!

Was our spirit in a Angelic body before we was sent into the world?
 
Really what it is saying is a ‘‘Pre-Immortal existence’’ in a spirit!

Jesus said to the father about his disciples>As you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world.>John 17:18

As we Know Jesus creates and does eveything through the father!

Was our spirit in a Angelic body before we was sent into the world?
What do you mean about an Angelic body? Angels are created spirits. I’m confused. (Which is close to my normal state) 😃
 
Good points, MC.

Anyway, some were denying my assertion that some Catholic scholars read Wisdom 8:19 as referring to premortal existence of the soul, even in the face of the one reference I provided. (Yes the guy was a doctoral student, but he had to pass his dissertation off with 3 faculty members. One was a Franciscan, and another was a Jesuit. All three had a “Licentiate of Sacred Theology”, which allows them to teach theology in Catholic universities. And yet, these guys aren’t “real Catholics”? Whatever.

Also, you can look up this book: David Collins and John J. Collins, Jewish Wisdom in the Hellenistic Age. These guys say something similar to the PhD dissertation, and JJ Collins is one of the editors of The Catholic Study Bible. (He also teaches at the Yale Divinity School.)

Kathleen says:
ask any Jewish person if this idea was ever in their belief system…and they would say no…
Why do you make such pronouncements? You might read this: Frank Chamberlin Porter, “The Pre-Existence of the Soul in the Book of Wisdom and in the Rabbinical Writings,” The American Journal of Theology, Vol. 12, No. 1 (Jan., 1908), pp. 53-115. You can find it here:

jstor.org/stable/10.2307/3154642

So not only is the premortal existence of the soul thought by many scholars to have been taught in Wisdom, but a bunch of ancient Rabbis taught it, too!

Do you (Kathleen and Lori) see the corner you are painting yourself into? You pronounce that there is NO biblical evidence for the idea of premortal existence. People then trot out several biblical passages that seem to support the view. You pronounce that these passages cannot possibly be taken to mean what Mormons take them to mean. People then trot out various biblical scholars (including Catholics) that take at least one of these passages to refer to pre-mortal existence. You pronounce that the Jews never believed any such thing. People then trot out an old scholarly article about how the Rabbinical writings contain such interpretations. You’ve also pronounced that nobody but Gnostics within early Christianity believed in premortal existence, but it turns out that isn’t the case. Do you want some references? Finally, Lori pronounced this:
The only others that believe in any such thing are all from the same era in the 1800’s in American history, that began with similar beliefs as LDS. IIRC the 7th Day Adventists, JWs and a couple of others share many similar odd ideas about God. Joseph Smith was either inspired by them, or they were inspired by him. It’s like the chicken/egg scenario as to who thought of it first.
Really? Because both the 7th Day Adventists and the JWs believe that humans DON’T HAVE a soul that is separate from the body.

It seems like you’re trying a bit too hard. None of the Mormons here seem to be pushing the idea that every reasonable person HAS TO interpret these passages the same way we do. We are just saying that many reasonable people can (and do) interpret at least some of these passages to be referring to premortal existence. This doesn’t “prove” our interpretation right–it just proves that people who pronounce that we have “no evidence” for our view are really stretching.
 
And BTW, since the 7th Day Adventists and JWs didn’t exist in any form until after Joseph Smith taught the doctrine of premortal existence, there wouldn’t be much of a “chicken and egg” paradox even if these other groups actually did believe it.
 
New American Bible. I think there are better translations out there, but it is the official Catholic translation used in the USA. I hope they choose something else soon; I hear that they are working on it. Nevertheless, I believe “sons of God” doesn’t vary in translation.
The Original ‘‘Hebrew’’ Manuscripts is translates SONS.

Strongs Concordance>SONS

Also in the Exhaustive Concordance> It is ‘‘Sons’’ of MAN!

There is no mention Angels anywhere:confused:

So were do we Get Angels from?:confused:
 
The Original ‘‘Hebrew’’ Manuscripts is translates SONS.

Strongs Concordance>SONS

Also in the Exhaustive Concordance> It is ‘‘Sons’’ of MAN!

There is no mention Angels anywhere:confused:

So were do we Get Angels from?:confused:
Hi Shaky,

The “sons of God” were the angels in Hebrew thought, so this would be a legitimate translation. Latter-day Saints believe that humans were angels before their birth, however, so the issue between Catholics and Mormons is really whether that’s the case.
 
Interestingly, Moses and Aaron fell upon their faces and addressed themselves to God this way: “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh . . .” (Numbers 16:22.)

Moses spoke of “the God of the spirits of all flesh.” (Numbers 27:16.)

The Lord himself asked Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? . . . when . . . all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:1-7.)

The Preacher said that when we die, our dust “returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes12:7.)

God said to the prophet Jeremiah, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5.)

While accompanying Jesus and upon seeing a man blind from birth, the disciples asked Jesus, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2.)

Addressing the men of Athens, Paul said of God, “we are indeed his offspring.” (Acts 17:27-28.)

Echoing the words of the Lord to Job, Paul said to the Ephesian saints that God “our Father” . . . “chose us in him before the foundation of the world.” (Ephesians 1:1, 4.)

And the writer of the following extensive passage in Proverbs seems to have communicated the idea in a way consistent with what is cited and quoted above: “Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him. . . .” (Proverbs 8:23-30.)

All quotations set forth above are taken directly from the most commonly preferred English-language version of the Bible accepted by the Roman Catholic Church, the Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition (1966), available online at jmom.honlam.org/rsvce/.

Interestingly, the language in the above quoted passages does not differ from the King James Version (1611), the version used by the Latter-day Saints (Mormons), other than minor differences, such as an occasional “you” in the RSV where there is a “thou” in the KJV.
 
StephenKent…

Again, you are projecting Mormonism onto the Bible, and subsequently, Mormonism does not look to the Bible for its truth…it gleans topics and ideas and personages from it, and makes them into something different, a different means to a different end…

Mormonism is hung up on being a god…pre mortal existance and then with full consent, fully cognizant in spirit form…deciding whether or not to be born.

God, Angels, Humans…no in between…

I gave prior Scriptural quotes verifying we were formed in our mothers’ wombs…

What Mormonism lacks is solid theology on the nature of God.

And the one particular failure in Mormonism is not recognizing God as transcendent, outside of time.

GOD EXISTS OUTSIDE OF TIME. He created the world, it is in the processing of constant growth…and after the creation of man, yes, man praised God for His creation…in the transcendent.

There has never existed a concept of pre mortals except in pagan polytheism. Mormonism takes on a new twist by wrongly and unjustly using themes in Christianity to create a new religion. It is better for Mormonism to stick with Joseph Smith and his fellow founders. You can’t mix two diverse religious thought.

You are either yes or no, one or the other…or God spits you out.
 
Dear Kathleen,

I was responding only to the question that was asked, which was “Where in biblical Scripture is there evidence of the pre-mortal existence of man?” Perhaps you could consider addressing each of the scriptural references cited and quoted and explain how each one, one by one, is not evidence of the pre-mortal existence of man. Everything in your response addresses other concerns beyond this.
 
The use of the word, Son of God, was used by the Jewish people in referring to their people in a most unique and filial relationship with the One True God…in the face of other cultures of polytheistic belief. Theirs was the covenant of the Decalogue and the Land…and their mission to bring forth the Messiah and the fulfilled time.

Although scholars have found few others that were also monotheistic, only Judaism and its theophanies of God coming to be among them have attested with such great and profound moral force and miracles and past events, that are being archaeologically proven continually up to today.

Never have the Jews believed that they are semi gods…you have to instead look to the Jewish source itself and see for yourself…not Joseph Smith’s recent interpretations, given the 5,600 history of Judaism to find out they never believed in such concepts.

If there is any sin culpable to Judaism it was idolatry…believing in false gods…which are really extensions of their own self will, and infidelity…falling away from God’s laws that they would fall out of grace and oftentimes be put into exile.

Again, we already know they never believed in pre mortals…you are using the Old Testament out of context from its religious and historical uses…you have to back to the original Jewish intent to find the truth for yourself…

I certainly can go down quote by quote and counter you…I will go back to my previous post that showed that human existance began in the womb…from Old Testament verses.

I have spoken briefly to Jewish people about what Mormons have done to their religion, and they laugh…it is so outside of their belief system.

If there is anything the believer was warned about…it went all the way back to the beginnings of Genesis…the forbidden fruit and saying tempting Eve to become as Gods…to gain wisdom is what the Mormons say…while not acknowledging Solomon’s Book of Wisdom…you pick and choose the fruit you want…
 
Excellent reply, a lot of well researched scriptures and well presented too. It seems to me that the three terms body soul and spirit are used inconsistently though. Here’s my working definition:

When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, his body and spirit were seperate. God breathed the Breath of Life and brought them together to form a living soul.

I think you might not agree, what is your definition? Are body, soul and spirit seperate?
They are 3 different distinctions without seperation when the body is alive!
Alive>Body+Spirit=Soul
The body without the spirit is dead!
So they can be seperate when the body is dead!
So is the Spirit and Soul Seperate?

What does it mean to destroy both body and soul in Hell?
What does it mean to hand this man over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so his ‘‘Spirit’’ will be saved on the day of Salvation?
Where is the Soul at this stage?
 
Post 134 quotes Old Testament providing faith that we were created in our mothers’ wombs…
 
The other concern is we are using human understanding of predestination that implies no free will or we were already formed to go in a certain direction…we set up to be saved or condemned…not true…

We have to look at predestination from God’s point of view…the working of grace, and we deciding ourselves whether we are open to grace or not…can go on further…but I am going to work…will come back on that later in regards to the true understanding of predestination as St. Paul intended.

The main point is you are using a recent source, Joseph Smith and his fellows who worked with him, to develop new ideas based on the concept of becoming gods…and of course…this claim to be gods…would then work into concept that yes, then, we had premortal existence then as well…we already had this make up that we have always been masters of our destiny…which is a work of Satan…God alone is Master and Creator of this universe…and whether people do good or evil, His will is being done.

We do not decide before we are born if we want to be born or not…

You are using Joseph Smith as the new interpretor of Scripture who invalidates the understanding of faith in God as both Jews and Christians have understood…and making Smith the new interpreter…is again, placing him in the place of the Holy Spirit.

And there are Mormons who admit that Joseph Smith is the carnate Holy Spirit at work today, a contradiction of terms as the Holy Spirit does not evolve into human flesh, but is always Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the true interpreter of Scripture Who has been at work, always at work in salvation history…not Joseph Smith.

It is the same Holy Spirit Who is at work in the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ, Who is One with Father and Son in providing us Truth and Eternal Life.

Joseph Smith and his followers created a new religion using Christianity and placing themselves as now the foundation instead of Christ’s apostles with Peter…I pray for the Mormon people to come to the truth and to cling to Jesus as He intended, not how Joseph Smith intended.

As Socrates said in reference to the conditions of life, ‘there is nothing new under the sun.’ I would put Joseph Smith’s teachings in contradition to Judaism and Christianity as literally something new and novel…give it time and the truth life come to life…as the angels’ threshing is coming to this world.
 
Thank you for that commentary. I really appreciate it. I do tend to try and put a lot of thought and heart into my replies, and take the subject matter very seriously. That’s not always easy for me to do, because I normally tend toward being a bit of clown. 😉

I actually debated whether or not I should use the quote from 1 Thessalonians, because it also includes a reference to ‘your whole spirit’. But, I’m leaning toward that possibly being a reference to the state of our soul, like our being in a ‘spiritual’ frame of soul when we follow Jesus, as opposed to our still living ‘according to the flesh’ when we don’t. Many people confuse those two words, spirit and soul, as much as they do eternal and immortal. Even in scripture, occasionally there seems to be a problem when they use them interchangeably. I think it’s because the soul really is a spiritual ‘thing’, so it’s fairly easy to use those two words like that.

I definitely believe that the body and soul are completely separate. That’s quite obviously referenced throughout the whole Bible. I believe you are referring to this verse:[Genesis 2:7] And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. IMHO, it says that when God “breathed” life into Adam, he was bringing the body that He had created to life, by infusing it with a living soul. Therefore, it’s still consistent with the idea that it’s the soul that gives the body life, and God created them both at that moment. It was the infusion of Adam’s body with the soul that God created for him, that actually made him into a living, breathing human being. Before he was given his soul, he wasn’t alive yet. He was still just like a statue that God had formed out of the “clay” of the earth. The soul, since it’s spiritual and not composed of matter, is just shown to enter the body by God ‘breathing’ into his face.
So is the Spirit>Breath=Wind=Air?
 
Never have the Jews believed that they are semi gods…you have to instead look to the Jewish source itself and see for yourself…not Joseph Smith’s recent interpretations, given the 5,600 history of Judaism to find out they never believed in such concepts.
Kathleen, you really need to quit pontificating about what the Jews have “always” or “never” believed. You might accidentally run into someone who has read some ancient Jewish sources.

E.g., one medieval Jewish text credits Rabbi Akiba (a famous rabbi who died in A.D. 135) with this statement.
The Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future call all of the pious by their names, and give them a cup of elixir of life in their hands so that they should live and endure forever. . . . And the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future reveal to all the pious in the World to Come the Ineffable Name with which new heavens and a new earth can be created, so that all of them should be able to create new worlds. . . . The Holy One, blessed be He, will give every pious three hundred and forty worlds in inheritance in the World to Come. [Midrash Alpha Beta diR. Akiba, BhM 3:32, quoted in Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts (Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1979), 251.]
Again, I’m not saying you have to agree with Rabbi Akiba. I’m just saying that maybe you had better be a little more circumspect in your pronouncements.
 
And BTW, Kathleen. The term “semi-gods” is your own. Mormons never use it. What do you gain by trying to exaggerate the extent to which we give greater status to humans?
Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things. (Alma 26:11–22, Book of Mormon)
 
That is an interesting point of view, what you said about God transferring some of his Spirit to make Man. That seems okay so far as Adam is concerned, I’m not so sure about Hitler.

One of the reasons–and this is totally outside any appeal I would make to the Bible–that I like the pre-existence model is that people seem to have such strong and distinct personalities and so far as I can tell they’re born with them. Sure there are environmental influences but it seems to me that similar people in similar circumstances turn out… very differently.
So could it be Some are from Above from God in heaven=Pre-mortal existence?

And others are from Below from Satan in Hades=hell=Pre-mortal existence?
 
And BTW, Kathleen. The term “semi-gods” is your own. Mormons never use it. What do you gain by trying to exaggerate the extent to which we give greater status to humans?
You may not use it,but that is how your religion presents or conveys humans-as semi-gods. Does not matter how much status you give humans, humans simply are NOT Eternal. That is simply bad theology on behalf of Mormonism.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
You as a human have always had a beginning,whether it is in space,time and matter or in the spiritual world. Again,for you to claim who have ALWAYS existed makes you are Eternal and you are NOT Eternal. That makes us co-Eternal with God. Your theology is wacked my friend.
Mormon_Cultist:
Yes, the human aspect of me had a beginning when God created it.
Exactly! key word: beginning (time,space,matter),thus you are NOT Eternal.
Yes, the Spiritual aspect of me had a beginning when I was born a spirit child of my Father in Heaven.
Same as above. You always had a beginning,God has NO beginning or past,thus He is Eternal.
No, the ‘Intelligence’ (composed of ‘light and truth’) that forms part of my Spirit had no beginning.
Wrong again…very wrong,bad theology.Sorry,but you are dead wrong. The problem is your failure to understand God’s nature and His Eternity. In essence, what you are saying is:

I am NOT finite,but I have always been INFINITE…like God, thus who is OUTSIDE of TIME,SPACE and MATTER. I am God’s co-equal.

No offense,but Mormonism theology is seriously flawed.
 
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