K
KathleenGee
Guest
alas…I will come back tomorrow to address all your Scripture references.
- Status
S
shaky
Guest
Also there are quite a few other saints that State we become GodThe Eastern Orthodox Christianity do teach that we become a God
St Basil the Great stated> Striving to becoming a God is the Highest Goal of all.
St Athanasius Stated>The Son of God became a Man, So that we might become God.
Also The Roman Catholic church teach we Become God in the Catechumen
T
Telstar
Guest
Both refer to God as the One that created us all, body and soul.
“Job 38: [1] Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? [6] Upon what are its bases grounded? or who laid the corner stone thereof, [7] When the morning stars praised me together, and all the sons of God made a joyful melody?”
God is verbally backhanding (aka: Gibbs-smacking) Job for being so insolent, and daring to question His judgements and actions. He’s asking Job who he thought he was, to question God. (as in, “Who died and made you God?”) Basically, He was telling Job that He wasn’t there when He created the world and everything else, so he can’t even begin to understand the true nature and power of God, or the reasons that He has to do the things He does, so Job has absolutely no right to ever question what God chooses to do. The “sons of God” is a reference to the angels who were the only beings created before the physical universe was created. Angels are not ‘human souls’. They’re entirely different creatures than mankind.
“Ecclesiastes12: [7] And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.”
God gives us our soul (spirit) when we are conceived (it’s immortal, but not eternal), so when we die, our body returns to the dust of the earth and our soul goes back to the spiritual realm, to be judged by God (the first judgement).
God knows everything, past, present, and future. He’s not subject to the constraints of time. Everything that ever existed is in the ‘present tense’ to God.
Jesus explained that it was not because of any sin of his, or his parents, but was so He could show the world His true power, by the miracle of healing a man that was blind from birth. Sometimes, God allows people to suffer all kinds of afflictions, to serve His own purposes, even if we never know what those purposes are. This is one of the ways God uses our sufferings to strengthen our faith in Him.
"Acts Of The Apostles 17: [27] That they should seek God, if happily they may feel after him or find him, although he be not far from every one of us: [28] For in him we live, and move, and are; as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring."
We are God’s adopted sons and daughters through our Baptism into the Body of Christ (His Church). We become part of God’s eternal family once again by being ‘reborn’, spiritually, and receiving His forgiveness for our sins. Before our Baptism, we’re like the ‘prodigal son’ that was separated from his father, until he returned and asked forgiveness for his sins against him.
Same as my reply to Jeremias.
This whole passage refers to Jesus Christ, not us. He was there “before the beginning”.
I prefer the Douay-Rheims, but the meaning is the same. The Catholic Church wrote the Book. Her version came first.
T
Telstar
Guest
I realize that it’s the only preferred choice for any normal Baptism, but I think there was a reference made somewhere in another thread about valid Baptism, that in the case of a dire emergency (the person is in imminent danger of death and desires Baptism), if there is no water available, any liquid might be used instead of water and it would still be a valid Baptism, as long as the Trinity is invoked properly. No doubt, it’s only to be used as an absolutely last resort, and water is most definitely the first choice if it is available (preferably Holy Water). :yup:@Telstar:
It must always be water for baptism. It can be full immersion, partial immersion, sprinkles of water, warm water, or cold water but, always water.
T
Telstar
Guest
His body, as well as the Blessed Mother’s, is glorified. It’s no longer subject to the constraints of the physical universe. That’s why when He went to the upper room, He could walk through the locked door, even though St. Thomas could actually put his hand and fingers into the wounds, and feel the flesh that was as real as it ever was before. Also, Jesus could still eat solid food. It’s a mystery that we’ll all understand better, when we’re resurrected.
M
Mormon_Cultist
Guest
I’m talking about statements like “your theology is whacked”. I know you didn’t make it personally, but our theology makes perfect sense when understood based on our understanding and interpretation of the scriptures: it can’t be expected to make sense based on yours or we’d all be Catholic, now wouldn’t we.
The only way discussion works is if both sides are interested and make an attempt to understand each other’s views.
Absolutely, when explaining to us what you disagree with our beliefs, base that on your own interpretation and understanding, buy don’t try to tell us that ours don’t make sense when you’re basing that on theology that was never meant to back it up.
Not a personal dig at anyone you understand, just trying to help the discussion along a little better, hopefully.
In your theology, but not in ours. Eternal has two uses, one that simply means without beginning or end: simply being a statement of something’s period of existence; and the other referring to God as ‘The Eternal One’. When we speak of Eternal Life it means both life without end, but also life with the Eternal One.
It’s not a suggestion that you might need help reading it, but as it is only the Latter Day Saints that use it, it seems reasonable that someone wanting it is interested to know about us, and therefore the missionaries are the best people to talk to about us.
Given its a quote I can think of only one source: and your saying it to me makes me a balding Shakespearian actor…I hope you know where I got that line.
Drat, I wanted to be Q! (disclaimer: not to be taken as any statement of doctrine
)
Jesus on trial stating simply “I AM” is one of my favourite, and possibly most powerful proclamations of His divinity. Not to mention just how riled up those two simple words got his accusers.
However all it has to mean is that He* is unchanging* (present continuous tense, with no reference to the past). It does not have to be interpreted to mean anything with regards to eternity.
I was responding to a statement to the effect that it was a shame particular books were not included in the KJV, the poster seemed to be of the opinion we believed that if it hadn’t been included, it was of no worth.Neither do we. That’s why we also look to Holy Tradition and the Saints that have come and gone before us, for inspiration.
Song of Solomon is included, and we believe it to be of little doctrinal worth. Go figure lol.
S
StephenKent
Guest
PART ONE (OF TWO PARTS):
While your inquiry is on a different topic from the one we are supposed to be discussing (the inquiry mentions and discusses none of the scriptural quotations about the possibility of the existence of a person prior to the beginning of his or her mortal life), I will address the inquiry.
Your central concern is about what you perceive to be a “caricature” of the Roman Catholic Church and its clery as “akin to the great harlot church.” You seem to say that “the Mormon church” promulgated this caricature.
One. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members love Roman Catholics, just as Roman Catholics love Mormons. The two churches work together in many charitable and social arenas, hand in hand, of like mind. Combining their efforts in the preservation of the sanctity of marriage as an institution reserved for one man and one woman being only one current example.
Two. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not take – and never has taken – a position on the identity of any religious denomination as supposedly being the “harlot church” (your phrase). The book of Revelation uses the phrases “great whore that sitteth upon the waters” (Rev. 17:1) and “Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth” (Rev. 17:5). But you will find nowhere at no time that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has ever identified those phrases or your phrase (or any similar phrase, or similar idea) either as the equivalent of or as identifying the Roman Catholic Church (or any other church, for that matter) as the Babylon or harlot spoken of in the book of Revelation.
Three. Some Latter-day Saints have done so erroneously. One who was in a position of leadership in the Church once did so (to the embarassment of many, I might add). He was Bruce R. McConkie, and essentially did so in his widely-read book “Mormon Doctrine” (first edition). However, not only did he remove that in his second edition, both his first edition and his second edition contained clear and explicit mention of the fact that everything he said in his book was his own personal thinking and that he was not speaking on behalf of the Church. (Indeed, it was numerous other Church leaders themselves who asked him to remove it from his book.)
Four. Most Latter-day Saints (not the Church but most members of the Church) have no idea what those phrases used by teh Apostle John actually stand for. But those who are educated in matters of early Christian history understand that the Roman Catholic Church itself has a very early history that is in many ways, and in one way most particularly, similar to that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And that one particular way is that it emerged from an earlier corruption of and helped to restablish some of the doctrines and scriptures lost from the pure Christianity left by Jesus and his apostles.
On this latter point, allow me to elaborate (for it is not well known either among Latter-day Saints or among Roman Catholics). (1) “Babylon” is said to have been drunk with the blood of the Saints, the martyrs of Jesus, and the prophets (see Revelation 17:6; 18:24); (2) she is known for her enjoyment of great wealth and luxury (see Revelation 17:4; 18:3, 11–16); (3) she is characterized by wanton sexual immorality (see Revelation 17:1–2, 5); (4) she has dominion over all nations (see Revelation 17:15, 18; 18:3, 23–24); and (5) her fate is to be consumed by the very kings who, because of her deceptions, have made war on the Lamb (see Revelation 17:14–16; 18:23).
It is that Babylon that killed Jesus, that killed the apostles, and that persecuted the Saints. It is, in short, the antithesis of love and charity and compassion and civility; it is characterized by and indeed the embodiment of hatred and strife and ill-will and contention and evil-speaking and all other sorts of sin and depravity, large and small. We all have stepped our feet into that church at times in our lives (hopefully none of us posts on this forum from keyboards located within the walls of that religion).
S
StephenKent
Guest
PART TWO:
Babylon, the “woman . . . arrayed in purple and scarlet” described in Revelation 17–18, is specifically the Satanic counterpart of the virtuous woman in chapter 12 who symbolizes the Church of Jesus Christ.
In short, in Revelation the symbol of the unvirtuous woman represents false religion. Jesus spent a lot of time attacking those who practiced and followed various forms of false religion. The underlying condemnation was not of any “religion” in the sense we normally talk (denominations of Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or the like) but, rather, of our tendency as individuals to appear to be righteous when actually not (whited sepulchres vs. dead men’s bones; men praying on street corners thanking God they are better than others; that sort of thing). Babylon is the antithesis of the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the new Jerusalem, the holy city. (Heb. 12:22; Rev. 3:12; 21:2.) Just as that city is a spiritual category, not a physical place but a spiritual condition – a condition in which we all strive, or should strive, to live – so, too, is Babylon a spiritual condition or category – one we should flee and in which we should not live. Babylon and the heavenly Jerusalem are opposed to one another just as love and hate, good and evil, light and dark are opposed to one another. In the centuries after the death of the apostles, the Roman Catholic Church taught its followers to flee from hatred, evil, and darkness.
And Jesus predicted that it would be, indeed, hatred, evil and darkness that would be the cause of the death of his apostles. There exist Latter-day Saints who take up residence in Babylon; there are Roman Catholics, too, who share that address. And in both religious traditions, there are those who walk the streets of the holy city.
The book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature. As such it deals with types and opposing principles (love vs. hate, etc.). When it speaks of Babylon, it is archetypal, not historical. Some have read Revelation as speaking of an historical Babylon and in that they are simply mistaken if what they are attempting to do is identify a place and a people who can be singled out on a map and a calendar. A few Latter-day Saints have erroneously thought that some historical, specific denomination, constitutes the Babylon spoken of in Revelation. This is not only dangerous but unfounded and not at all anything akin to a position taken by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (which has never said any such thing though a few of its members, including one prominent one, have on their own so said). The result of such an erroneous position is that people then will want to identify which denomination is the “Babylon” of Revelation. And what follows? An antagonistic relationship with that denomination (as evidenced by your inquiry).
Some people over the centuries (not Latter-day Saints) have argued that strains of Judaism in the first century constituted the “Babylon” spoken of. After all, Jewish leaders persecuted the church and spilled the blood of the Saints. They crucified the Messiah. However, it was this kind of argument—that the Jews were the beast, the antichrist—that led directly to the Holocaust, an event where Satan’s hand has probably never been more clearly discernible.
Some (including a few Mormons, though never speaking for the Church) have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the Babylon of the book of Revelation. This is also untenable. In the period between Peter and the Roman emperor Constantine, there were many Christian churches besides the Orthodox Church: Ebionites, Syrian and Egyptian churches, Donatists, Gnostics, Marcionites, and so on. Indeed, the early Orthodox Church can hardly be accused of immorality. It had, in fact, gone to the extremes of asceticism. In some areas of the world, Orthodoxy replaced an earlier, already corrupt form of Christianity. And during much of the period, members of the Orthodox Church were not in a position to persecute anyone, as they were being thrown to the lions themselves. The Catholic Church of the fourth century was the answer to an earlier apostasy. Satan had his ministers in the world known as Babylon was already opposing the holy city as far back as in the days of Cain, Nimrod, Pharaoh, and Herod. The two cities have been in existence from all time and, unfortunately, are among us today. We all live in one of them.
Christianity was born among the Jews. Jewish Christianity was born in a world of an anthropomorphic God and a belief in the resurrection of the dead. Some Greek Christians at Corinth denied or altered the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and Paul responded against them forcefully in 1 Corinthians 15. In the first and second centuries, Babylon may have been a collection of different movements. For example, some Jewish Christians would not relinquish the law of Moses and therefore gave up Christ instead. Whatever Babylon was, if it was ever some historical entity, we do not know what it was. Perhaps it can easily be said that no historical entity has ever had adherents who did not receive mail at a Babylonian address.
Any way, back to the original question of whether there are in the scriptures any passages that touch on the concept that persons exist prior to the time they are brougth into this mortal world. What are the scriptures and what are the responses to what those scriptures mean?
Babylon, the “woman . . . arrayed in purple and scarlet” described in Revelation 17–18, is specifically the Satanic counterpart of the virtuous woman in chapter 12 who symbolizes the Church of Jesus Christ.
In short, in Revelation the symbol of the unvirtuous woman represents false religion. Jesus spent a lot of time attacking those who practiced and followed various forms of false religion. The underlying condemnation was not of any “religion” in the sense we normally talk (denominations of Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or the like) but, rather, of our tendency as individuals to appear to be righteous when actually not (whited sepulchres vs. dead men’s bones; men praying on street corners thanking God they are better than others; that sort of thing). Babylon is the antithesis of the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the new Jerusalem, the holy city. (Heb. 12:22; Rev. 3:12; 21:2.) Just as that city is a spiritual category, not a physical place but a spiritual condition – a condition in which we all strive, or should strive, to live – so, too, is Babylon a spiritual condition or category – one we should flee and in which we should not live. Babylon and the heavenly Jerusalem are opposed to one another just as love and hate, good and evil, light and dark are opposed to one another. In the centuries after the death of the apostles, the Roman Catholic Church taught its followers to flee from hatred, evil, and darkness.
And Jesus predicted that it would be, indeed, hatred, evil and darkness that would be the cause of the death of his apostles. There exist Latter-day Saints who take up residence in Babylon; there are Roman Catholics, too, who share that address. And in both religious traditions, there are those who walk the streets of the holy city.
The book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature. As such it deals with types and opposing principles (love vs. hate, etc.). When it speaks of Babylon, it is archetypal, not historical. Some have read Revelation as speaking of an historical Babylon and in that they are simply mistaken if what they are attempting to do is identify a place and a people who can be singled out on a map and a calendar. A few Latter-day Saints have erroneously thought that some historical, specific denomination, constitutes the Babylon spoken of in Revelation. This is not only dangerous but unfounded and not at all anything akin to a position taken by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (which has never said any such thing though a few of its members, including one prominent one, have on their own so said). The result of such an erroneous position is that people then will want to identify which denomination is the “Babylon” of Revelation. And what follows? An antagonistic relationship with that denomination (as evidenced by your inquiry).
Some people over the centuries (not Latter-day Saints) have argued that strains of Judaism in the first century constituted the “Babylon” spoken of. After all, Jewish leaders persecuted the church and spilled the blood of the Saints. They crucified the Messiah. However, it was this kind of argument—that the Jews were the beast, the antichrist—that led directly to the Holocaust, an event where Satan’s hand has probably never been more clearly discernible.
Some (including a few Mormons, though never speaking for the Church) have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the Babylon of the book of Revelation. This is also untenable. In the period between Peter and the Roman emperor Constantine, there were many Christian churches besides the Orthodox Church: Ebionites, Syrian and Egyptian churches, Donatists, Gnostics, Marcionites, and so on. Indeed, the early Orthodox Church can hardly be accused of immorality. It had, in fact, gone to the extremes of asceticism. In some areas of the world, Orthodoxy replaced an earlier, already corrupt form of Christianity. And during much of the period, members of the Orthodox Church were not in a position to persecute anyone, as they were being thrown to the lions themselves. The Catholic Church of the fourth century was the answer to an earlier apostasy. Satan had his ministers in the world known as Babylon was already opposing the holy city as far back as in the days of Cain, Nimrod, Pharaoh, and Herod. The two cities have been in existence from all time and, unfortunately, are among us today. We all live in one of them.
Christianity was born among the Jews. Jewish Christianity was born in a world of an anthropomorphic God and a belief in the resurrection of the dead. Some Greek Christians at Corinth denied or altered the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and Paul responded against them forcefully in 1 Corinthians 15. In the first and second centuries, Babylon may have been a collection of different movements. For example, some Jewish Christians would not relinquish the law of Moses and therefore gave up Christ instead. Whatever Babylon was, if it was ever some historical entity, we do not know what it was. Perhaps it can easily be said that no historical entity has ever had adherents who did not receive mail at a Babylonian address.
Any way, back to the original question of whether there are in the scriptures any passages that touch on the concept that persons exist prior to the time they are brougth into this mortal world. What are the scriptures and what are the responses to what those scriptures mean?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Hi Stephen…thanks for your sharing…
Babylon, by the way, refers to a life and bondage and exile from God to sin and debauchery. No where in Sacred Scripture do you see Babylon the Church. Or Babylon, the Roman Church. That contradicts geographical settings.
That concept that the great Harlot, the Whore is the Roman Church, is from the early 1800 Restorationists, who, unfortunately, get labelled many times as cults because they are twisting and adding words to Scripture that is anathema…
You don’t want to be in a cult that makes ‘stuff up’ and puts down other faiths so it can be ‘on top’. That movement contradicts the spirit of Christ Who calls us to be a humble servant, and that Christ stands before the heart of every person.
Being nice is not being a Christian.
A Christian is someone who has laid down their life for Christ, and that He has become the source of life.
I live in an area where all kinds of people work and help each other. That is great.
What we are dealing here on CAF is not to defend or promote Mormonism or how Mormonism has changed or it doesn’t believe like it did before…so now people can join…using CAF.
NO, not here.
Babylon, by the way, refers to a life and bondage and exile from God to sin and debauchery. No where in Sacred Scripture do you see Babylon the Church. Or Babylon, the Roman Church. That contradicts geographical settings.
That concept that the great Harlot, the Whore is the Roman Church, is from the early 1800 Restorationists, who, unfortunately, get labelled many times as cults because they are twisting and adding words to Scripture that is anathema…
You don’t want to be in a cult that makes ‘stuff up’ and puts down other faiths so it can be ‘on top’. That movement contradicts the spirit of Christ Who calls us to be a humble servant, and that Christ stands before the heart of every person.
Being nice is not being a Christian.
A Christian is someone who has laid down their life for Christ, and that He has become the source of life.
I live in an area where all kinds of people work and help each other. That is great.
What we are dealing here on CAF is not to defend or promote Mormonism or how Mormonism has changed or it doesn’t believe like it did before…so now people can join…using CAF.
NO, not here.
N
Nicea325
Guest
I am sorry,but it was not intention to insult you or your faith.
N
Nicea325
Guest
:ehh: My choice? In regards to what?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
In response to your red alert yesterday for everyone to pull back into contesting my faith with you on my faith’s forum, and by the way, I do not go to any forum as such on the internet to gain converts,…
I am here to answer your Scriptural references ‘proving’ Scripture is stating pre- mortal existance. The whole bottom line, as always, is who is interpreting? I gave you the same passage, Jeremiah 1:5 to prove that we do not have premortal existance.
So what is the true interpretation?
The one that has been held for 5,600 years in Judeo Christianity or the new one by Joseph Smith that is less than 200 years old, who made an unchallenged claim that he saw God and God spoke to Him, when Scriptures says no one can see God and live.
So again, what or who is the true interpretation? Joseph Smith, a man…or the True Interpreter of the Holy Spirit…the Catholic Church drawing from the witness of the 12 apostles and the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ???
Today’s Psalm 116:10-19 begins the Liturgy of the Hours’ first Psalm: 'I trusted, even when I said: “I am sorely afflicted,” and when I said in my alarm, “No man can be trusted.”
That answers it for me…How much do we see over and over and over again not to put our trust into the teachings of men, but in God alone and particularly in Christ, as said by St. Peter in his second letter that he was among those who were chosen to be among the His Majesty’s witnesses.
Sorry, I am with the Catholic Church in the Holy Spirit…who never left us like the captain did on the cruise sinking off an Italian liner we are seeing today. IF the Mormons are capable of selecting their successors to Smith et al, all the more Christ’s chosen apostles were especially ordained and sent to proclaim the Good News and to establish Christ’s Church.
IF not, we are not believing in the same God, the same Christ, the same Apostles…let alone Sacred Scripture.
And back to Numbers 16:22 and Numbers 27:16…‘The God of the spirits of all flesh’…Throughout the Bible, Sacred Scripture proclaims the One, True God, creator of all life Who gives us His Spirit. We are bodies and souls. And when we die, our flesh turns to dust, only to rise again at the Last Day with Jesus Christ.
Man alone was given a human soul and our soul was created by God, a spirit and unique to every one of us. But if we endure in sin, our soul will be condemned to eternal hell. In Mormonism, the only ones to go to hell are the ones who leave Mormonism…?..correct, so the religion is there to serve man and your religion, not God.
Continued.
I am here to answer your Scriptural references ‘proving’ Scripture is stating pre- mortal existance. The whole bottom line, as always, is who is interpreting? I gave you the same passage, Jeremiah 1:5 to prove that we do not have premortal existance.
So what is the true interpretation?
The one that has been held for 5,600 years in Judeo Christianity or the new one by Joseph Smith that is less than 200 years old, who made an unchallenged claim that he saw God and God spoke to Him, when Scriptures says no one can see God and live.
So again, what or who is the true interpretation? Joseph Smith, a man…or the True Interpreter of the Holy Spirit…the Catholic Church drawing from the witness of the 12 apostles and the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ???
Today’s Psalm 116:10-19 begins the Liturgy of the Hours’ first Psalm: 'I trusted, even when I said: “I am sorely afflicted,” and when I said in my alarm, “No man can be trusted.”
That answers it for me…How much do we see over and over and over again not to put our trust into the teachings of men, but in God alone and particularly in Christ, as said by St. Peter in his second letter that he was among those who were chosen to be among the His Majesty’s witnesses.
Sorry, I am with the Catholic Church in the Holy Spirit…who never left us like the captain did on the cruise sinking off an Italian liner we are seeing today. IF the Mormons are capable of selecting their successors to Smith et al, all the more Christ’s chosen apostles were especially ordained and sent to proclaim the Good News and to establish Christ’s Church.
IF not, we are not believing in the same God, the same Christ, the same Apostles…let alone Sacred Scripture.
And back to Numbers 16:22 and Numbers 27:16…‘The God of the spirits of all flesh’…Throughout the Bible, Sacred Scripture proclaims the One, True God, creator of all life Who gives us His Spirit. We are bodies and souls. And when we die, our flesh turns to dust, only to rise again at the Last Day with Jesus Christ.
Man alone was given a human soul and our soul was created by God, a spirit and unique to every one of us. But if we endure in sin, our soul will be condemned to eternal hell. In Mormonism, the only ones to go to hell are the ones who leave Mormonism…?..correct, so the religion is there to serve man and your religion, not God.
Continued.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Next, you share a passage from John 9:2 when people thought those infirmed were cursed because of family sin. Christ admonished them of that misunderstanding…it in no way shows whatever any concept of pre mortal existence.
In Acts, your next passage, addressing the men of Athens…Paul said of God, ‘We are indeed His offsprings.’ One becomes an adopted son and daughter of God at baptism, and in those days, ancient Athens, Greece was the hubbub for intellectual talk and discussion – minus God. So even to say an adopted filial relationship to God…to them and their history, ‘gods’…this was outlandish and got Paul set up into big trouble.
It is in Baptism through the Holy Spirit that we are incorporated into Jesus Christ and become part of His mystical Body, and become adopted sons and daughters. Our new life is not ours but Christ’s. The New Testament claims these points many times.
In Ephesians 1:1-4, Paul echos the words of God to Job, ‘chose us in him before the foundation of the world…’ The correct interpretation is that God alone, as repeated over and over again in Job is sole Creator and His ways are unknown to us, and we must accept all of our plight as coming from God Himself, especially when it comes to our own plight in the face of loss and destruction. We must continue to affirm our faith in Him.
The other part is that God chose all of us, as He did Adam and Eve, to share His life with us and be with Him in eternal life. But He created us with free will and how many people deny Him and reject Him?..God’s intention and His plan for us is that He wants all of us with Him, He has chosen all of us to be with Him for all eternity…but we can also reject this gift…as many have done, witness that in the world today…just today alone.
In Acts, your next passage, addressing the men of Athens…Paul said of God, ‘We are indeed His offsprings.’ One becomes an adopted son and daughter of God at baptism, and in those days, ancient Athens, Greece was the hubbub for intellectual talk and discussion – minus God. So even to say an adopted filial relationship to God…to them and their history, ‘gods’…this was outlandish and got Paul set up into big trouble.
It is in Baptism through the Holy Spirit that we are incorporated into Jesus Christ and become part of His mystical Body, and become adopted sons and daughters. Our new life is not ours but Christ’s. The New Testament claims these points many times.
In Ephesians 1:1-4, Paul echos the words of God to Job, ‘chose us in him before the foundation of the world…’ The correct interpretation is that God alone, as repeated over and over again in Job is sole Creator and His ways are unknown to us, and we must accept all of our plight as coming from God Himself, especially when it comes to our own plight in the face of loss and destruction. We must continue to affirm our faith in Him.
The other part is that God chose all of us, as He did Adam and Eve, to share His life with us and be with Him in eternal life. But He created us with free will and how many people deny Him and reject Him?..God’s intention and His plan for us is that He wants all of us with Him, He has chosen all of us to be with Him for all eternity…but we can also reject this gift…as many have done, witness that in the world today…just today alone.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
This is absolutely incredible…I just gave an insight on StephenKent’s selection of Proverbs 8 and wrote out my response and it keeps from being posted…
I pray to the Holy Spirit…
It is most critical that Mormons gain a Catholic Bible to better understand Christian faith for their own sake.
Proverbs 8 that StephenKent provides reflects on an going issue by mormons to leave out the actual context of Catholic sources to prove Mormonism. Stephen uses Proverbs 8:23-30 about a man, “ages ago I was set up.” when in fact, the Proverb is speaking about Wisdom.
I questioned earlier…who do you trust, man who claimed to be prophet without witness…or in the Holy Spirit to interpret Sacred Scriptures. To get the whole context of Chapter 8 of Proverbs…any school teacher will tell a student to go back to the beginning introducing statement. Proverb 8 begins, 1. Does not Wisdom call, and Understanding raise her voice? 2. On the top of the heights along the road, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3. By the gates at the approaches of the city, 4. "To you, O men, I call; my appeal is to the children of men, 5. You simple ones, gain resource, you fools, gain sense.
6. “Give heed! for noble things I speak; honesty opens my mouth.”
Consider the image…on the top of heights of the road, at crossroads, at gates into cities…this is when a person needs guidance…and there is nothing in Judeo Salvation history of a someone calling down a premortal being to ask for guidance.
Instead, what we are witnessing here in Proverbs 8 is the Discourse on Wisdom…
Wisdom is the first and greatest of all the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. The second greatest gift of the Holy Spirit is Understanding. The third is Counsel…prudence…judging by intuition with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit defending. The fourth is Fortitude, the strength of the Holy Spirit, best exemplified by the death of martyrs. Does Mormonism have martyrs? The fifth gift of the Holy Spirit is Knowledge, the ability to judge all things pertaining to our own daily life and its circumstances, and finding our purpose in life. The sixth gift of the Holy Spirit is piety…the perfection of the virtue of religion…we want our religion to be truly of God and moral. The last gift, the seventh, is the gift of Fear of Lord, which is rather confirming the theological virtue of Hope in God.
So do we believe in Joseph Smith as interpreter of Scripture or the Holy Spirit?
Now I turn to the Book of Wisdom where the Catholic Church bases its scholastic disicpline, and how through the Holy Spirit’s Gift of Wisdom we discern what is truth…in the next post.
I pray to the Holy Spirit…
It is most critical that Mormons gain a Catholic Bible to better understand Christian faith for their own sake.
Proverbs 8 that StephenKent provides reflects on an going issue by mormons to leave out the actual context of Catholic sources to prove Mormonism. Stephen uses Proverbs 8:23-30 about a man, “ages ago I was set up.” when in fact, the Proverb is speaking about Wisdom.
I questioned earlier…who do you trust, man who claimed to be prophet without witness…or in the Holy Spirit to interpret Sacred Scriptures. To get the whole context of Chapter 8 of Proverbs…any school teacher will tell a student to go back to the beginning introducing statement. Proverb 8 begins, 1. Does not Wisdom call, and Understanding raise her voice? 2. On the top of the heights along the road, at the crossroads she takes her stand; 3. By the gates at the approaches of the city, 4. "To you, O men, I call; my appeal is to the children of men, 5. You simple ones, gain resource, you fools, gain sense.
6. “Give heed! for noble things I speak; honesty opens my mouth.”
Consider the image…on the top of heights of the road, at crossroads, at gates into cities…this is when a person needs guidance…and there is nothing in Judeo Salvation history of a someone calling down a premortal being to ask for guidance.
Instead, what we are witnessing here in Proverbs 8 is the Discourse on Wisdom…
Wisdom is the first and greatest of all the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. The second greatest gift of the Holy Spirit is Understanding. The third is Counsel…prudence…judging by intuition with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit defending. The fourth is Fortitude, the strength of the Holy Spirit, best exemplified by the death of martyrs. Does Mormonism have martyrs? The fifth gift of the Holy Spirit is Knowledge, the ability to judge all things pertaining to our own daily life and its circumstances, and finding our purpose in life. The sixth gift of the Holy Spirit is piety…the perfection of the virtue of religion…we want our religion to be truly of God and moral. The last gift, the seventh, is the gift of Fear of Lord, which is rather confirming the theological virtue of Hope in God.
So do we believe in Joseph Smith as interpreter of Scripture or the Holy Spirit?
Now I turn to the Book of Wisdom where the Catholic Church bases its scholastic disicpline, and how through the Holy Spirit’s Gift of Wisdom we discern what is truth…in the next post.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I am having weird thing happening again to computer…hmm…
Now to the Book of Wisdom in discerning Knowledge.
The Mormons and Protestants do not use the Book of Wisdom. The Scholastic base of Catholicism comes from only one phrase in the Book of Wisdom found in Wisdom 11:21 and this is it: I would use last part of 20:…in reference to God:
“BUT YOU HAVE DISPOSED ALL THINGS BY MEASURE AND NUMBER AND WEIGHT.”
What is this statement from Sacred Scripture teaching us? That the universe has order and rationality…and by omitting this very simple passage of in the Book of Wisdom…the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit…has eluded entire civilizations.
I draw here on Catholic priest Father Stanley Jaki who states that non-Christian civilizations ‘were burdened by conceptual frameworks that hindered the development of science’. Science requires documentation…as does Catholicism…we beginning through Christ, His apostles, followers and witnesses concrete proof of intent and meaning.
Fr Jaki stated that 'the Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Mayan cultures suffered a ‘still birth’ "because of their inability in a transcendent Creator Who endowed His creation with consistent physical laws.
To the contrary, 'these belief systems conceived a universe as a huge organism dominated by a pantheon of deities and destined to go through endless cycles of birth, death, and rebirth…this made the development of science impossible…'The animism that characterized ancient cultures, which conceived of the divine as immanent in created things, hindered the growth of science by making the idea of a constant natural laws foreign. Created things had minds and wills of their own – an idea that all but precluded of thinking of them as behaving in according to regular, fixed patterns.
Do we see Mormonism in this in its idea of pre mortal existence…the production of more spirit children in the next life as a cycle as Fr here showed for other belief systems?
Now to the Book of Wisdom in discerning Knowledge.
The Mormons and Protestants do not use the Book of Wisdom. The Scholastic base of Catholicism comes from only one phrase in the Book of Wisdom found in Wisdom 11:21 and this is it: I would use last part of 20:…in reference to God:
“BUT YOU HAVE DISPOSED ALL THINGS BY MEASURE AND NUMBER AND WEIGHT.”
What is this statement from Sacred Scripture teaching us? That the universe has order and rationality…and by omitting this very simple passage of in the Book of Wisdom…the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit…has eluded entire civilizations.
I draw here on Catholic priest Father Stanley Jaki who states that non-Christian civilizations ‘were burdened by conceptual frameworks that hindered the development of science’. Science requires documentation…as does Catholicism…we beginning through Christ, His apostles, followers and witnesses concrete proof of intent and meaning.
Fr Jaki stated that 'the Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Mayan cultures suffered a ‘still birth’ "because of their inability in a transcendent Creator Who endowed His creation with consistent physical laws.
To the contrary, 'these belief systems conceived a universe as a huge organism dominated by a pantheon of deities and destined to go through endless cycles of birth, death, and rebirth…this made the development of science impossible…'The animism that characterized ancient cultures, which conceived of the divine as immanent in created things, hindered the growth of science by making the idea of a constant natural laws foreign. Created things had minds and wills of their own – an idea that all but precluded of thinking of them as behaving in according to regular, fixed patterns.
Do we see Mormonism in this in its idea of pre mortal existence…the production of more spirit children in the next life as a cycle as Fr here showed for other belief systems?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
So to end here, we as Catholics believe in miracles and the supernatural. But we must find moderation.
St. Thomas Aquinas, according to Fr Jaki, 'struck an important balance between God’s freedom to create any kind of universe He wanted and His consistency in governing the universe. St. Thomas worked to help us to understand what kind of universe God created and to avoid abstract thinking about how the universe must be.
God’s complete creative freedom means it did not have to be a particular way…but by means of experience, a key ingredient to the scientific method, that we come to know the nature of the universe God chose to create…and we can come to know it because it is rational, predictable and intelligible.’
St. Thomas Aquinas, according to Fr Jaki, 'struck an important balance between God’s freedom to create any kind of universe He wanted and His consistency in governing the universe. St. Thomas worked to help us to understand what kind of universe God created and to avoid abstract thinking about how the universe must be.
God’s complete creative freedom means it did not have to be a particular way…but by means of experience, a key ingredient to the scientific method, that we come to know the nature of the universe God chose to create…and we can come to know it because it is rational, predictable and intelligible.’
K
KathleenGee
Guest
'St Thomas speaks of God as the Uncaused Cause-- a cause that in itself is not in need of a cause. This first cause can therefore begin the sequences of causes. This first cause is God. God is the one self-existing being whose existence is part of His very essence. No human being must exist; there was a time before each one came into existence, and the world will continue to exist after each one perishes.
Existence is not part of the essence of any human being. But God is different. He cannot not exist. And He depends on nothing prior to Himself in order to account for His existence.’, Thomas E Woods, Jr, PhD, 'How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.
So this is why I said prior for a premortal to decide whether not they want to be born, that they were fully cognizant before conception…when Human life begins through the Spirit of God giving it life and the life from mother and father…a premortal would already be as some kind of semi god…meaning he already was divine…
Existence is not part of the essence of any human being. But God is different. He cannot not exist. And He depends on nothing prior to Himself in order to account for His existence.’, Thomas E Woods, Jr, PhD, 'How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.
So this is why I said prior for a premortal to decide whether not they want to be born, that they were fully cognizant before conception…when Human life begins through the Spirit of God giving it life and the life from mother and father…a premortal would already be as some kind of semi god…meaning he already was divine…
T
TexanKnight
Guest
awesome posts…good job, Kath
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pablope
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pablope
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