Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[BDawg]

You may not use it,but that is how your religion presents or conveys humans-as semi-gods. Does not matter how much status you give humans, humans simply are NOT Eternal. That is simply bad theology on behalf of Mormonism.

Interesting logic, Nicea325. When Mormons talk about it, they usually say something like “gods in embryo,” or some such. In other words, humans are not gods, but they have the potential to become such. So if an actual embryo is a potential adult human, does that mean we should call it a “semi-adult”? Is a lump of iron a “semi-sword”?

Maybe now you can see why a Mormon might think it’s ignorant to say we believe humans are “semi-gods”? See this passage from the LDS “Pearl of Great Price”:

And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed. (Moses 1:10)

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
You may not use it,but that is how your religion presents or conveys humans-as semi-gods. Does not matter how much status you give humans, humans simply are NOT Eternal. That is simply bad theology on behalf of Mormonism.

BDawg:

Interesting logic, Nicea325.

Not logic,but Truth.

When Mormons talk about it, they usually say something like “gods in embryo,” or some such. In other words, humans are not gods, but they have the potential to become such.

I beg your pardon? Your statement is vague. Humans have the potential to be gods? Are you referring to people being conceited or arrogant they actually believe they are a god? Or do you truly believe when people die he or she can be a “god” and be worshipped?

So if an actual embryo is a potential adult human, does that mean we should call it a “semi-adult”? Is a lump of iron a “semi-sword”?

But an embryo is NOT an adult. Is an infant a teenager? And iron is not used only for swords.

Maybe now you can see why a Mormon might think it’s ignorant to say we believe humans are “semi-gods”? See this passage from the LDS “Pearl of Great Price”:

Quote:
And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed. (Moses 1:10)

No offense,but I do not accept Mormon literature as God’s revelation.

 

[StephenKent]

I’d like to respectfully request that posters encourage Kathleen to discuss, one by one, each of the scriptures quoted in post number 186 above (see her response at posting number 187 and my prior request at posting number 188).

For some reason, the question that was posed at the very beginning of this dialogue asked a simple question (namely, what scriptural evidence supports the notion that people existed as individuals prior to their mortal lives) and I supplied a number of such scriptures, quoting from the English-language version of the Bible most commonly accepted by Catholics.

Kathleen responded to my posting by discussing issues that had been raised by others in this discussion. However, I had said nothing about the issues others have discussed. Rather, I simply quoted scriptures, as the original post starting this discussion requested.

Kathleen did not address how it is that the scriptures I quoted do not constitute scriptural evidence of the notion that people existed as individuals prior to their mortal lives.

I would invite all to encourage her to discuss those scriptures and would invite anyone else to discuss them as well.

 

[BDawg]

I beg your pardon? Your statement is vague. Humans have the potential to be gods? Are you referring to people being conceited or arrogant they actually believe they are a god? Or do you truly believe when people die he or she can be a “god” and be worshipped?

The second, but not “when people die”. I’m sure it takes considerable time after that.

But an embryo is NOT an adult. Is an infant a teenager? And iron is not used only for swords.

That was my point.

No offense,but I do not accept Mormon literature as God’s revelation.

I was suggesting that you should accept Mormon literature as a reasonable indication of what Mormons are supposed to believe. I don’t have to accept the Catechism to realize that it’s a good source if I want to find out what Catholics are supposed to believe.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

You are still approaching our theology with your understanding and interpretation: this way you will never understand what we believe. It’s like trying to explain either of our belief systems to an atheist, who insists on trying to find any basis for those beliefs in an assumption that there is no God: the two ideas are never going to marry together.

Either you are interested in understanding what we actually believe, and how we interpret scripture to bring us to that understanding;
Or
You are interested only in argument and belittling our beliefs, in which case I will bid you adieu: not to the thread, but to the comments of anyone who chooses this option. Unless you become overly abusive I will not block you, so I will still see your comments and respond if you choose to alter your position.

I have not come onto this forum with any aggression or malice, I have (I believe) shown nothing but respect of Catholic beliefs, even though I do not share most of them. I have, you should be happy to hear, learned a few things about Catholicism that I did not know before, and have found much of the discussion thus far to be interesting and enlightening: and I hope this continues.

Please show the proper respect in return to our different, but equally valid beliefs. We hold them with equal conviction as you hold yours. You think we are wrong, we think similarly of you; and that is something that was obvious to all of us from the start; but it makes for a level playing field, no?

 

[Nicea325]

The second, but not “when people die”. I’m sure it takes considerable time after that.

That was my point.

I was suggesting that you should accept Mormon literature as a reasonable indication of what Mormons are supposed to believe. I don’t have to accept the Catechism to realize that it’s a good source if I want to find out what Catholics are supposed to believe.

I am sorry,but that is not what orthodox Christianity hsa ever taught,one can be a “god” here or in the after life. But the issue here is about humans being Eternal as God,which they are not. Has nothing to do what Mormons are supposed read.

 

[Nicea325]

You are still approaching our theology with your understanding and interpretation: this way you will never understand what we believe. It’s like trying to explain either of our belief systems to an atheist, who insists on trying to find any basis for those beliefs in an assumption that there is no God: the two ideas are never going to marry together.

Either you are interested in understanding what we actually believe, and how we interpret scripture to bring us to that understanding;
Or
You are interested only in argument and belittling our beliefs, in which case I will bid you adieu: not to the thread, but to the comments of anyone who chooses this option. Unless you become overly abusive I will not block you, so I will still see your comments and respond if you choose to alter your position.

I have not come onto this forum with any aggression or malice, I have (I believe) shown nothing but respect of Catholic beliefs, even though I do not share most of them. I have, you should be happy to hear, learned a few things about Catholicism that I did not know before, and have found much of the discussion thus far to be interesting and enlightening: and I hope this continues.

Please show the proper respect in return to our different, but equally valid beliefs. We hold them with equal conviction as you hold yours. You think we are wrong, we think similarly of you; and that is something that was obvious to all of us from the start; but it makes for a level playing field, no?

No offense,but has nothing to do what with: our interpretation or your interpretation,but the nature of God: Eternal.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

Mormonism is hung up on being a god…pre mortal existance and then with full consent, fully cognizant in spirit form…deciding whether or not to be born.

Nope, this is not what we teach. Yes, as Spirits with God in heaven we were fully cognisant, but we do not decide when/if we are born.

The other concern is we are using human understanding of predestination that implies no free will or we were already formed to go in a certain direction…we set up to be saved or condemned…not true…

No, we are not saying this at all. We do not believe in any kind of predestination.

You are using Joseph Smith as the new interpretor of Scripture who invalidates the understanding of faith in God as both Jews and Christians have understood…and making Smith the new interpreter…is again, placing him in the place of the Holy Spirit.

We hold Joseph Smith in exactly the same regard as the Jews held and understood the position of their prophets throughout the Old Testament: Moses, Isaiah, Elijah; as their leader “to Godward”, to reveal into them the will of the Lord their God. We hold each and every prophet since him in the same regard.

And there are Mormons who admit that Joseph Smith is the carnate Holy Spirit at work today, a contradiction of terms as the Holy Spirit does not evolve into human flesh, but is always Spirit.

There are Catholics who also say many unusual, unorthodox things that are not taught by the Catholic church.
If your response would be that they are not really Catholic, or that they clearly don’t understand the doctrine properly: go figure, that was my response also.
We don’t teach this, and it’s complete nonsense.

You may not use it,but that is how your religion presents or conveys humans-as semi-gods. Does not matter how much status you give humans, humans simply are NOT Eternal. That is simply bad theology on behalf of Mormonism.

In essence, what you are saying is:
I am NOT finite,but I have always been INFINITE…like God, thus who is OUTSIDE of TIME,SPACE and MATTER. I am God’s co-equal.

Except that this is not at all what we say If you take the time to understand our theology. Two aspects of our nature are infinite: the time span of our existence (in one form or another), and our potential. In these two aspects we are the same as God; in all other aspects He is infinitely more than we are.
I agree, if someone with only Carholic understanding of theology made the same statement, then they would in effect be saying what your logic dictates; because (so far as I have come to understand) you believe that God’s eternal nature is solely His, is unique to Him, and is completely a part of Him, thus for anything else to share that nature they must absolutely be God. But this is not what we believe, thus it is no wonder that when you apply this theology system to our beliefs you come unstuck.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

No offense,but has nothing to do what with: our interpretation or your interpretation,but the nature of God: Eternal.

Seems like you have made your choice, and for that I am sorry.

 

[BDawg]

I am sorry,but that is not what orthodox Christianity hsa ever taught,one can be a “god” here or in the after life. But the issue here is about humans being Eternal as God,which they are not. Has nothing to do what Mormons are supposed read.

Nicea, please pay attention.

I said that some of you guys were exaggerating the extent to which Latter-day Saints exalt humans. In support, I quoted a passage from LDS scripture. I didn’t ask you to believe anything, except that LDS believe what that passage in our scriptures says.

So, do you accept that Mormons believe that in our present state, compared to God “man is nothing,” like our scriptures say? If so, I think it’s hard to argue that we believe people are “semi-gods.”

That’s all. I am simply asking you to accurately portray our beliefs, rather than creating a caricature to insult us. I don’t think that request is unreasonable. Do you?

 

[KathleenGee]

Stephen Kent…

I have no problem and in no way wish to convey the idea that I can’t answer your posts…I just came in from work, taking a client to the hospital and was checking my emails and a PM…

I have to settle down…and I don’t do copy and paste…an old woman…but no, not in any way was I taken back or feeling at a loss…not at all…So I will print out your post in paper and then go down with my responses…

But will what I share with you change your mind???

 

[KathleenGee]

Bdawg…

Semi god is my name to describe a pre mortal who decides on his own if he wants to become a human or note…this is akin to mythology and polytheism…

And to use ‘pontificating’…isn’t that the same usage of other anti-Catholics?..You ask the Jews then how they conform to Mormon teachings…

 

[KathleenGee]

Mormon Cultist…what we are witnessing is on going change of Mormon teachings…past threads have brought out your former teachings…so we never know what will change next…

A poster here brought out various links from Mormon sites…then would go back and find them pulled…we find that very dishonest.

But that Mormonism is trying on the outside to appear no different than Christianity when indeed it is seeking its own progression and exaltation…

 

[Telstar]

Yes, the human aspect of me had a beginning when God created it.
Yes, the Spiritual aspect of me had a beginning when I was born a spirit child of my Father in Heaven.
No, the ‘Intelligence’ (composed of ‘light and truth’) that forms part of my Spirit had no beginning.

Spirits don’t have “parts” because they’re not composed of any kind of ‘matter’.

You are applying your (Catholic) understanding of the theology to our teaching: is it any surprise, then, that you find a disconnect? This is why I asked for your specific definition of ‘eternal’; because it is becoming more clear that you attach more to the word than simply existing forever both in the past and future.~snip~

We are all applying the truths of Catholicism to show where the differences between your beliefs and ours lie. Otherwise, this would all be a useless dialogue. What else would you expect us to base our arguments for the debate on? Our definition of eternal is the classic textbook definition when it’s applied to God. When something is eternal, it means that it exists beyond all boundaries of time and space. God existed long before He ever created time or anything else. He will always exist, forever. We didn’t. No ‘part’ of us ever existed before we were created, when God formed us in our mother’s womb.

Our existence is subject to time. Time was created by God to give the physical universe a logical order for it’s existence. But, time doesn’t effect the spiritual world, because spirits (souls) are not composed of physical matter. Time has absolutely no effect on God, in any way. He exists outside of both time and space. We have never existed outside of time or space. Our souls (spirit) are only subject to time when they are created and joined with our bodies that exist within the confines of the physical world. But, when we die, our souls will no longer be subject to time, either.

He must have ordered from one of the adverts,Meier on TV, or on the website. These are intended for those interested in learning more: and the missionaries are called to help with just that.

I dunno. But, if I ordered a book to read, I’d probably be a little put off that they assumed I needed someone to help me read it.

Naturally we both think this: and I sometimes think that some on this forum would do well to remember that I hold my beliefs in the same esteem and with the same confidence and conviction as you do.
I’ll stick with the one that has God’s witness behind it: historical evidence or no.

I don’t think anyone has any doubt that you believe in yours as strongly as we believe our own.

I hope you know where I got that line.

Just a little :doh2:

He was baptised by full immersion and called all to follow His example. Where, then, does He say anything else is OK?

The formula was written by the Apostles in the early Church (I think in the Didache?). There are references to various methods of applying it, depending on the availability of water. The main constant is that it must always to be done, “I Baptize thee in the name of The Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (using something else, if water isn’t available). (I think the formula was posted in this or another thread.)

Actually, all any of the Biblical references to the nature of God is state one of a handful of things: that He is he same yesterday, today and forever…

This all goes back to the definition of “eternal” in reference to God. “I AM” basically means that there is no need for any other description of who, what, or when that can be used regarding Him, at all. He just “is”. Time and space don’t exist for Him. No before, or after.

And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. [20] And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.

Wherever it is taken from, this section still refers to why Solomon believes he makes good company to wisdom. It is because being well favoured (of God), and that the nature from which he came was noble, he was placed into a body free from defections (genetic disorders, blindness, deafness etc for example). For there to be any relevance to why he would be deemed worthy (the only reasonable reason for the use of ‘attain’ - some kind of personal deeds went into it) to receive an unblemished body, indicates that there must have been some time, some kind of existence for him, before he had attained it.~snip~

God knows everything, past, present, and future. That’s the only explanation that’s really necessary for me. It seems to me that it could easily be seen as Solomon recognizing that everything that was ‘special’ about him was the result of a direct gift from God, that was given to him through God’s grace, and for God’s purposes. Whether it was solely dependent on him, or as a result of the virtue of his parents, or whatever else, doesn’t really matter. It was because God wanted him to be the person that he was for His own reasons. The same goes for all of us. God always knows who will submit to His Will, and who will refuse.

Except that we do not believe that the canon of scripture is all that exists which is good, correct and beneficial to edify and uplift.

Neither do we. That’s why we also look to Holy Tradition and the Saints that have come and gone before us, for inspiration.

 

[Miriam1947]

@Telstar:

The formula was written by the Apostles in the early Church (I think in the Didache?). There are references to various methods of applying it, depending on the availability of water. The main constant is that it must always to be done, “I Baptize thee in the name of The Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (using something else, if water isn’t available). (I think the formula was posted in this or another thread.)

It must always be water for baptism. It can be full immersion, partial immersion, sprinkles of water, warm water, or cold water but, always water.

 

[GEddie]

There are no angelic bodies. Scripturally, human beings are the only eternal-capable beings that are endowed with a body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[BDawg]

Bdawg…

Semi god is my name to describe a pre mortal who decides on his own if he wants to become a human or note…this is akin to mythology and polytheism…

And to use ‘pontificating’…isn’t that the same usage of other anti-Catholics?..You ask the Jews then how they conform to Mormon teachings…

Kathleen,

I’m sorry, but this makes no sense. Maybe you were typing too fast, but I’m not understanding.

 

[shaky]

I never said anything about God placing a part of His own Spirit into Adam’s body. I clearly said that God created a spiritual soul to place into it. In a previous post, I also defined spirits (such as angels) as being separate creations of God, that exist in the spiritual realm of Heaven (or hell, in the case of the fallen angels). So, your twisting of what I said to somehow compare what you perceive a soul to be, in view of someone the likes of Hitler, as being contrary to the Spirit of God, Himself, is totally ludicrous. Every soul is an individual, in the same way that the body it inhabits is an individual, completely separate from God.

A soul is not a little ‘piece’ of God. It’s just one of His many creations (from nothing), which Mormons deny He even has the power to do, at all. That just seems to be the way you to want to look at it, because to acknowledge that God actually has that kind of power, would completely nullify all Mormon beliefs. I can certainly understand how that concept would be devastating to anyone that chooses to believe in Mormonism, but, that doesn’t change the truth of it. There are two realms of existence, the physical realm of the universe that we live in now, that is completely made up of matter, and the spiritual realm of Heaven, that contains absolutely no matter, whatsoever. They are both creations from the Mind of God, the sole Creator of everything that exists. Their existence doesn’t require us to believe in them to be true, they just are, whether we choose to believe it or not.

Thank you, pablope!

What about the ‘‘Physical human body’’ that Jesus in HEAVEN has?
Is that not made up of matter?

 

[shaky]

I am sorry,but that is not what orthodox Christianity hsa ever taught,one can be a “god” here or in the after life. But the issue here is about humans being Eternal as God,which they are not. Has nothing to do what Mormons are supposed read.

The Eastern Orthodox Christianity do teach that we become a God

St Basil the Great stated> Striving to becoming a God is the Highest Goal of all.

St Athanasius Stated>The Son of God became a Man, So that we might become God.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well in response to the red alert post…I am now able to sit down…and respond…

After coming home to somone deciding to cook his pot roast, cooking it fast so it is red and smoking out the house, to my dingo dogs following me everywhere I was going, phone calls to the snowed in and flooding or hurricane areas of loved ones…to then going back and opening all the windows…and the smoke hung in here…everything smelling like pepper…going downstairs to get the fan…use the fan…put it back…only to have the person open the oven door to bring out very baked potatoes in pepper…and another smoke out…going about opening the doors, going back to my setting to begin composing…and not being able to breathe or see well in the smokiness…getting the fan back…taking dogs out who won’t move…who then get into a little dog fight…cats running around…looking for some items…and now to here…

StephenKent:
I can’t type in red…but here is my question back to your ending statement using the Revised Standard version in English by the RCC…thank you…and your final comment …
"interestingly, the language in the above quoted passages does not differ from the King James Version (1611), the version used by the Latter Day Saints (Mormons), other than minor differences, such as an occasional “you” in the RSV where there is a “thou” in the KJV…

My question then, why in the world did the Mormon church both to put together such a misrepresentation of our Christian devotion to the Word of God, the first liturgy of the Mass…as denying us the Word in the “King James Bible” program? The caricature of the Church and our clergy…was akin to the great harlot church…‘church’…a new addition to scripture by the restorationists in the 1800’s…why the bother?..

The Catholic Church has never bothered to do such a think to another religion, and I hope it never does…because making such programs…only backfire on themselves. The mainline Christian churches don’t either.