Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[Miriam1947]

youtube.com/watch?v=AgYguIi7fMI

 

[KathleenGee]

I think the greater reality of Mormonism is that they really do not believe in God or care to learn more about God, but put their faith in man.

I note how the Mormons who come on, not the former Catholics, go so far then stop…because if they continue, you would hear a very different belief system.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think ‘God’ in Mormonism is more some kind of eternal force to tap on to become one yourself.

 

[KathleenGee]

That is why I think it is more credible for Mormons to leave this Great Apostasy idea out…the only doctrine in early Christianity was the Apostles Creed…the concepts given us by the very witnesses of Christ Himself…the Apostle Creed being recited at the daily gathering of the Mass.

And with that in mind, in consideration that Mormonism really doesn’t have a rigorous and consistent theology about God, they should make Mormonism more Mormon and let Christianity and Judaism go… keeping it an American religion.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It seems that at the heart of the differences between many Mormon and traditional Christian beliefs lies the doctrine of pre-mortal existence

You know what through Steve, I have heard Christian Theologians from US Christian Universties, aside from Catholics/Mormons speak on this. The book of Genesis and the seperation of chaper one and two is their point of contention.

These were “from what I’m told by them” not seperate chapters from the on-set. Supposedly the symbolic emblem which came between the two chapers originally, indicates there’s an unknown in this time period from Jewish tradition. Which indicates a time lapse where something else could have possibly happened.

An close observer of Orthodox Judaism would be able to clarify the above points. And I haven’t heard that perspective.

I have read their sights which confirm they hold to the book of Genesis literally, that God created the universe/life from nothing, in less than 7 days, less than 10,000 years ago; Adam and Eve were the first humans and they empathically state this. But, some hold that a “day” in the Bible is not defined as 24 hours, and some believe that scientific discoveries don’t contradict but attest to God’s awesome power.

So then IMHO while I have heard a “couple” Protestants suggest this, I just haven’t heard it anywhere else, but with somewhat similar Mormon ideas.

Here’s the point through. As far as Jesus Christ and the messianic prophecy it would make no difference, but only to somehow add weight to their stance in theology and different understanding of ApostolicTradition and Jewish. Lets face its St Paul was a Pharisee before Damascus. So I would think surely he would have related this theology also. But never does he do this, in fact he speaks at great length in Romans confirming Adam and Eve and original sin.

However, I’m always open minded to hearing the thinking.

Peace

 

[BDawg]

Hi everyone,

This thread was begun by someone asking if there was biblical support for the idea of the pre-mortal existence of souls. Does the Catholic Bible count?

Wisdom of Solomon 8 :19

“As a child I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body.”

 

[KathleenGee]

Solomon was lucky indeed, the son of King David, and blessed with the desire for wisdom. He wrote that passage after he was king, and had great wealth and many wives…so yes, blessed was he…!! He is literally talking about himself…

And I would not covet becoming another King Solomon…his life is gone. His palace, his many wives, his wealth is no more.

Pre mortal existance shows these creatures are masters of their own destiny…deciding whether or not they want to be born. So they are the creators of their own existence…already semi-gods…

 

[KathleenGee]

There is a problem taking only one quote out of Scripture to making such a broad and sweeping statement that then in turns can support this idea that we were pre mortals…

Every passage and phrase of Scripture is connected to each other…Christ is the Eternal Word…through which the universe was made…and at the fulfilled time, we have the Incarnation…Christ becoming Man, the Son of Man, the Son of God…to die…the only death to give birth to a new life for all humanity.

There is no second life for pre mortals now coming to earth through their own pre-ordained will to now enter into human form in this valley of tears and woe…unless they decide to contradict the gospel…and seek to be served, to seek money, wealth and power…which are the gifts of the Prince of this world, the Prince of Darkness.

Christ Himself is the fulfillment of Scripture, every phrase and passage is all about Christ coming to restore us to God; it is not about us…in times before our existence…

 

[BDawg]

Kathleen,

The Wisdom passage is pretty clear, in my opinion. Solomon says his soul was good, so he entered a good body. In any case, I think it’s perfectly legitimate for Mormons to point to that as evidence that the idea of pre-mortal existence was current back then. Certainly this contradicts the idea that there’s no clear biblical evidence for the concept, at least for Catholics.

 

[Telstar]

Hi everyone,

This thread was begun by someone asking if there was biblical support for the idea of the pre-mortal existence of souls. Does the Catholic Bible count?

Wisdom of Solomon 8 :19

“As a child I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body.”

Lets look at it in context. Solomon is speaking of his relationship with the Wisdom of God. The entire book is about him speaking of God’s Wisdom by personifying it, as if it were a woman. It was one of God’s greatest gifts to him.
*Wisdom 8: [16] When I go into my house, I shall repose myself with her: for her conversation hath no bitterness, nor her company any tediousness, but joy and gladness. [17] Thinking these things with myself, and pondering them in my heart, that to be allied to wisdom is immortality, [18] And that there is great delight in her friendship, and inexhaustible riches in the works of her hands, and in the exercise of conference with her, wisdom, and glory in the communication of her words: I went about seeking, that I might take her to myself. [19] And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. [20] And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.

[21] And as I knew that I could not otherwise be continent, except God gave it, and this also was a point of wisdom, to know whose gift it was: I went to the Lord, and besought him, and said with my whole heart:

Wisdom 9: [1] God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things with thy word, [2] And by thy wisdom hast appointed man, that he should have dominion over the creature that was made by thee, [3] That he should order the world according to equity and justice, and execute justice with an upright heart: [4] Give me wisdom, that sitteth by thy throne, and cast me not off from among thy children: [5] For I am thy servant, and the son of thy handmaid, a weak man, and of short time, and falling short of the understanding of judgment and laws.

[6] For if one be perfect among the children of men, yet if thy wisdom be not with him, he shall be nothing regarded. [7] Thou hast chosen me to be king of thy people, and a judge of thy sons and daughters. [8] And hast commanded me to build a temple on thy holy mount, and an altar in the city of thy dwelling place, a resemblance of thy holy tabernacle, which thou hast prepared from the beginning: [9] And thy wisdom with thee, which knoweth thy works, which then also was present when thou madest the world, and knew what was agreeable to thy eyes, and what was right in thy commandments. [10] Send her out of thy holy heaven, and from the throne of thy majesty, that she may be with me, and may labour with me, that I may know what is acceptable with thee:

[11] For she knoweth and understandeth all things, and shall lead me soberly in my works, and shall preserve me by her power. [12] So shall my works be acceptable, and I shall govern thy people justly, and shall be worthy of the throne of my father.*
The line you pulled out of context describes the soul that was created for him by God, being a special gift that was given to him, for the purposes that God had ordained for him to fulfill. God knows everything that will ever happen, long before it does. That’s just more proof of the amazing, true power of God, and certainly not that we ever existed before we were born.

It’s too bad King James decided to throw Wisdom out with the bath water, eh?

O wait… wasn’t it supposed to be the “great and abominable” *Catholic Church *that removed all of those “plain and precious things” from the Bible?

 

[KathleenGee]

Telstar…

Thanks for your post…you do good…I have found Mormons jump on a few phrases of Catholic writings…and ignore everything else that is written, taking the piece out of context, then saying Catholic sources are even admitting Mormon beliefs…when in reality…to the contrary…which explains why I am rather ‘pooped out’ going into alot of depth with Mormonism.

No, sorry, Dawg…over and over and over…the great given to Solomon was Wisdom…nothing greater one could ask for…

Wisdom is a much more profound virtue to pray for than to want to become some kind of god.

 

[BDawg]

Hi Lori and Kathleen,

I’ve read a number of scholarly commentaries (don’t remember if they were Catholic scholars) about this passage, and it is very commonly inferred that this passage was talking about premortal existence. So whether or not you think the passage means something else, it’s not just me interpreting that passage this way, and it’s not just Mormons.

And BTW, Mormons believe books like Wisdom were inspired, but somewhat corrupted, so we don’t feel the need to include them in our canon.

 

[BDawg]

BTW, you can find Catholic scholars who will admit Wisdom 8:19 is talking about pre-existence of souls. E.g., John J. Collins, and here’s a doctoral dissertation from the Catholic University of America:

aladinrc.wrlc.org/bitstream/1961/9192/1/Glicksman_cua_0043A_10055display.pdf

(Search for “8:19” in the document.)

Anyway, the Catholic scholars I’ve seen admitting this usually go on to say they think the idea was adopted from Plato, rather than the earlier Hebrews, so I don’t want you to think I’m trying to say that these Catholic scholars are unreservedly promoting the Mormon view. I’m just saying that they read this particular passage like I do. (I.e., they take it at face value.)

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hi Lori and Kathleen,

I’ve read a number of scholarly commentaries (don’t remember if they were Catholic scholars) about this passage, and it is very commonly inferred that this passage was talking about premortal existence. So whether or not you think the passage means something else, it’s not just me interpreting that passage this way, and it’s not just Mormons.

And BTW, Mormons believe books like Wisdom were inspired, but somewhat corrupted, so we don’t feel the need to include them in our canon.

Could you please provide references for those things you’ve read, BTW I doubt they were Catholic. I also feel it’s a shame you don’t include books like Wisdom, it’s very sad the LDS discount such books, though of course you may make that free will choice.

 

[Telstar]

Hi Lori and Kathleen,

I’ve read a number of scholarly commentaries (don’t remember if they were Catholic scholars) about this passage, and it is very commonly inferred that this passage was talking about premortal existence. So whether or not you think the passage means something else, it’s not just me interpreting that passage this way, and it’s not just Mormons.

And BTW, Mormons believe books like Wisdom were inspired, but somewhat corrupted, so we don’t feel the need to include them in our canon.

Hi, BDawg,

I think I can guarantee they weren’t Catholic scholars, unless they were debunking the belief in premortal existence. Anyone claiming to be Catholic that would believe anything like that, wouldn’t really be Catholic, at all (maybe a former Catholic). The only others that believe in any such thing are all from the same era in the 1800’s in American history, that began with similar beliefs as LDS. IIRC the 7th Day Adventists, JWs and a couple of others share many similar odd ideas about God. Joseph Smith was either inspired by them, or they were inspired by him. It’s like the chicken/egg scenario as to who thought of it first.

It was certainly never believed by Christians before that time period (maybe it was a gnostic belief?). If it was, there would have been similar religious movements in Europe, but there weren’t any as far as I know. The only other possibility I can think of, might be from a Calvinist (I think) position, where they believe in predestination. But, even that’s very different from the premortal existence that LDS believe.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar…

Thanks for your post…you do good…I have found Mormons jump on a few phrases of Catholic writings…and ignore everything else that is written, taking the piece out of context, then saying Catholic sources are even admitting Mormon beliefs…when in reality…to the contrary…which explains why I am rather ‘pooped out’ going into alot of depth with Mormonism.

No, sorry, Dawg…over and over and over…the great given to Solomon was Wisdom…nothing greater one could ask for…

Wisdom is a much more profound virtue to pray for than to want to become some kind of god.

Thank you, Kathleen. I try.

 

[Telstar]

BTW, you can find Catholic scholars who will admit Wisdom 8:19 is talking about pre-existence of souls. E.g., John J. Collins, and here’s a doctoral dissertation from the Catholic University of America:

aladinrc.wrlc.org/bitstream/1961/9192/1/Glicksman_cua_0043A_10055display.pdf

(Search for “8:19” in the document.)

Anyway, the Catholic scholars I’ve seen admitting this usually go on to say they think the idea was adopted from Plato, rather than the earlier Hebrews, so I don’t want you to think I’m trying to say that these Catholic scholars are unreservedly promoting the Mormon view. I’m just saying that they read this particular passage like I do. (I.e., they take it at face value.)

That’s only a thesis that was written by a student at the university, that probably reflects his own personal views. There’s no way of telling what his personal religious background is, because you certainly don’t have to be Catholic to attend Catholic University. You’d have to find something a little more convincing as coming from the solid Catholic theological perspective. From the references, it seems that his opinion is that the book of Wisdom shows some Hellenistic tendencies in belief, which (I think) is not part of Catholic belief.

 

[KathleenGee]

B’dawg…

It is very clear in the Book of Wisdom that Solomon is speaking of wisdom…honestly…I don’t see how anyone with an academic background can consider it a discipline of learning to grab on to one single phrase from the entire Bible, take it out of context from which it is intended…to make out that we are some kind of demi-gods…walking about, fully cognizant before our existence…ask any Jewish person if this idea was ever in their belief system…and they would say no…

This pre-mortal idea is sounding more like something about of Greek mythology.

Thanks for your source, but it is not Catholic belief…we have all sorts of people in Catholics schools and universities…there is a former Dominican who wrote a thesis and the Mormons took it as the priest proving Joseph Smith right on progression to become gods…the priest was not Catholic in thought and spirit and is no longer a priest…so they were using a comprised, unfounded source to show a Catholic agreeing with them.

Never, never has Christianity ever taught pre mortal existence…we do not chose when we live or die. God alone is our Creator…and He is the source of life…not our free choice. Read the psalms of the Bible…our days our numbered, fleeting…we can’t take anything with us…all that we think we possess today, turns to dust tomorrow…we are creatures and always will be.

Christianity has always taught that to desire to become as gods was the primary sin of Adam and Eve and brought about their downfall and their descendents. Anti-Christ is man wanting to be as god. Anathema…the great desire we are to flee from!!

If you want to find out what is actual Catholic belief…read the universal Catholic Church Catechism. All Catholic theologians uphold the authentic interpretation of Scripture and concord 100% with the catechism.

Remember, our faith is developed from 2,000 years of documented and sustained faith lived out.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

You as a human have always had a beginning,whether it is in space,time and matter or in the spiritual world. Again,for you to claim who have ALWAYS existed makes you are Eternal and you are NOT Eternal. That makes us co-Eternal with God. Your theology is wacked my friend.

Yes, the human aspect of me had a beginning when God created it.
Yes, the Spiritual aspect of me had a beginning when I was born a spirit child of my Father in Heaven.
No, the ‘Intelligence’ (composed of ‘light and truth’) that forms part of my Spirit had no beginning.

You are making yoursefl out to be a mini-god and that is heresy.

Pre mortal existance shows these creatures are masters of their own destiny…deciding whether or not they want to be born. So they are the creators of their own existence…already semi-gods…

No creature that has ever existed is comparable to God, in any way, shape or form.

You are applying your (Catholic) understanding of the theology to our teaching: is it any surprise, then, that you find a disconnect? This is why I asked for your specific definition of ‘eternal’; because it is becoming more clear that you attach more to the word than simply existing forever both in the past and future. This is all that we mean by the fact that we are co-eternal with God: that we have existed in one way or another for all time that has gone, and will exist of all time to come. Some LDS members are of the belief that as spirits we may have had some (name removed by moderator)ut in discussing with God what would happen to us here on an individual level: choosing our parents for example - but as far as I know this is not doctrine, I have never heard it taught. We do not claim to be anything comparable to God.

That wasn’t the experience of another poster that ordered a BoM, just to read it, and it showed up on his doorstep in the hands of an LDS missionary.

He must have ordered from one of the adverts,Meier on TV, or on the website. These are intended for those interested in learning more: and the missionaries are called to help with just that.

But, only one of our statements can be true. We probably both think it’s ours. I’ll stick with the one that has historical evidence behind it, that really hasn’t changed much for 2000 years.

Naturally we both think this: and I sometimes think that some on this forum would do well to remember that I hold my beliefs in the same esteem and with the same confidence and conviction as you do.
I’ll stick with the one that has God’s witness behind it: historical evidence or no.

“Staring at each other, across the neutral zone!”

I’m guessing the above statement is an indication of the fingers not listening to the brain.

Just a little :doh2:

:ehh: Really? Where does Jesus and the 12 teach baptism is ONLY valid by immersion?

He was baptised by full immersion and called all to follow His example. Where, then, does He say anything else is OK?

The name of God is “I Am Who Am”…transcendant of time and human events…God never changes and is always present…

Actually, all any of the Biblical references to the nature of God is state one of a handful of things: that He is he same yesterday, today and forever - in which case what about the day before yesterday, or last week? That he is the same from eternity to eternity - we lived with Him in eternity before our mortal birth, and will do in eternity afterwards: but what about the eternities before and after this? Eternity can also be used to refer to the state or place in which we existed with God (I.e. with the Eternal One) not just to an infinite span of time. Sometimes the scriptures describe Him as unchanging, forever the same, I Am; each of these indicates hat He is not changing - they are all present tense - and say nothing about Him before now.

Lets look at it in context.

And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. [20] And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
uscc.org: Wisdom 8:

19

• Now, I was a well-favored child,
  and I came by a noble nature;
  20
  or rather, being noble, I attained an unblemished body.

Wherever it is taken from, this section still refers to why Solomon believes he makes good company to wisdom. It is because being well favoured (of God), and that the nature from which he came was noble, he was placed into a body free from defections (genetic disorders, blindness, deafness etc for example). For there to be any relevance to why he would be deemed worthy (the only reasonable reason for the use of ‘attain’ - some kind of personal deeds went into it) to receive an unblemished body, indicates that there must have been some time, some kind of existence for him, before he had attained it.
This is further backed up by the common Jewish belief that disease and disorders were an outward sign of sin. When Jesus was asked about the blind man they wanted to know who had sinned, the man himself or his parents, to cause him to be born blind. For there to even be any question over this matter, some understanding of a period of existence prior to the man’s mortal birth must be known.

It’s too bad King James decided to throw Wisdom out with the bath water, eh?

Except that we do not believe that the canon of scripture is all that exists which is good, correct and beneficial to edify and uplift.

 

[shaky]

Nope; Scripture states that God “forms the spirit of man within him”, that is, within the body.

In 1 Corinthians, S. Paul states the “natural” comes first; then the spiritual. There is no spiritual life prior to the natural life; the body comes first.

Apart from the Book of Mormon, there is no support for a human being’s premortal existence.

ICXC NIKA

We are all born with a ‘‘spirit’’ body and soul. Its the Spirit=Neos our own spirit that might have pre-existed.

When Paul was talking about first comes the ‘‘Natural’’ was he talking about our natural spirit body and Soul?

Then the Spiritual>Is this not when we are born again in Gods Spirit?