Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Interesting comments…Yes, StephenKent, I was wondering why you would chose such a source as Ehrman…I read a comment that he is only helping people have a stronger faith…

But you have to search where you are in your faith and in your heart and what is motivating you to desire the ideas you want justified. If I truly am seeking the reality of God…I will find the source…I will avoid all sources disproving God and His means of establishing His church because I know those people are fools.
 
PART TWO OF TWO:

The same can be said of Origen. Ehrman argues that Origen also is a witness against those two verses. But when one looks at the pericope about the woman taken in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), one can see that Origen clearly is a source against those verses because Origen’s commentary on John is still extant and Origen skips directly from 7:52 directly to 8:12 without missing a beat. Thus we can be very sure that Origen did not know of 7:53-8:11 in the version he used of the Gospel of John. However, we do not have any such commentary by Origen on the Gospel of Luke. We do know that Origen wrote a commentary on Luke (we know this from Jerome) but it is lost.

So, we know from an analysis of Clement and Origen that Ehrman is clearly misrepresenting the evidence and overstating the case. Later Church Fathers (Hilary of Poiytiers and Jerome) who stated both that they knew verses 43-44 and that they do not appear in some manuscripts. They expressly state that they know the two verses actually do appear in some and do not appear in other manuscripts and they both are neutral on the question of authenticity.

But when you look at the earliest Church Fathers in the second century, you see that Justin Martyr clearly knew of verses 43-44, for he cites them. So by about A.D. 155, the verses were known. In the face of this, Bart argues that the verses therefore must have been added prior to A.D. 155. That, however, is merely a bald assertion. The manuscript evidence shows otherwise. Justin knew of the verses. The very next Church Father, Irenaeus of Lyons, writing in about A. D. 180, also knew of the verses. The earliest copy we have of yet another second-century apologist, Tatian, in his Diatesseron (a harmony of the four Gospels), which we have only in Latin in the Codex Fuldensis from the middle of the sixth century (about A. D. 545), also includes Luke 22:43-44. Indeed, we have a Syriac commentary on Tatian by Ephraim from the fourth century and he, too, comments on Tatian’s treatment of Luke 22:43-44 (so we know it was actually in Tatian’s work).

Thus, the three most important figures from the second century—Justin, Tatian, Irenaeus—all knew of this passage. It is not until the middle of the third century that manuscripts begin to omit the two verses. The rise of anti-Christian literature started in the late second century and became prolific in the third century. And every single anti-Christian writer we know of from that period—Celcius, Porphyry and Julian—all single out the Gethsemane narrative and say that Jesus was a weakling, with Porphyry and Julian specifically citing to Luke 22:43-44 to support their mockery of the Savior.

What did early Christians think about what was happening in Gethsemane? They in fact were at a loss to explain what was actually going on. For example, commenting on Matthew’s account, cited to Jesus statement, “Father, remove this cup from me; nevertheless, not my will but thine be done,” Origen said this simply referred to the Jewish nation: when Jesus drinks this cup, the whole Jewish nation will be destroyed. Another explanation will be that Jesus was not acutally weak, he really does not need strengthening, but he is baiting the Devil. If he baits the Devil and the Devil sets off the betrayal, this is how Jesus ultimately will conquer the Devil (a case of divine deception, playing the part to bait the Devil to get Judas to betray him). In their gropings to explain the verses, none of the early Christians actually discuss the Atonement and do not at all mention that in those drops of blood are represented the washing away of the sins of the world.

So what was going on in the third century was the Christians were faced with a problematic passage of scripture, were unable to explain it, and therefore did as was unfortunately too common: they simply omitted the verses from the manuscripts. Arian used verses 43-44 against the Orthodox, arguing the passage proves that Jesus was subordinate to God and is actually susceptible to change, an anathema. Epiphanius not only countered that the Arians were using these verses as a proof text but he also expressly lamented that Orthodox Christians had responded by omitting this passage from their scriptures. Thus he admitted that Orthodox Christians were omitting the verses from their scriptures in the fourth century in light of Arianism because it was a hard saying and Arians were using it to their advantage.

Is it possible that someone between the middle of the second century and the middle of the third century may have omitted those verses for apologetic reasons? In other words, rather than being an anti-Docetic addition, there may in fact have been a Docetic omission of the verses. And the most blatantly anti-Docetic passage in the Gospels is in Luke when Jesus is resurrected. And that is an uncontested verse, where Jesus states, “Behold, a phantasm has not flesh and bones as ye see me have.” Clearly Jesus after his resurrection is showing that he has a physical, corporeal body. That is in Luke and it otherwise is a secure verse. In other words, adding verses 43-44 did not need to be added in an effort to fight against Docetism; there is already plenty there, in Luke.

So we actually have no Church Father stating that the verses were added and we have Epiphanius admitting that the verses actually were there earlier and later were omitted. In either event, we have actual corruption of the scripture texts themselves, not merely divergent views on what they mean, and those corruptions occurred in the very earliest centuries after the death of the Apostles.
What is your purpose in taking an exception … that was clearly remedied according to your narrative … and making it the rule?
 
Originally Posted by Publisher
For a man to have been born blind…and the FACT he was born blind was an indication that he had sinned…when did he sin? The questioners were understanding that the man born blind had sinned in some way and his blindness was punishment for that sin…unless one had the capacity ot sin in the pre-existence…what sense did the question make in the first place?
Publisher,

Thank you tremendously for this explanation and your earlier comments.👍
Jesus corrected the misconception that the Jews had. He said that this blindness was not a direct result of sin committed by the parents or the man himself. In other words … There was no sin involved in this situation. Jesus stated clearly that this man was born blind in order to demonstrate the power of God.

Jesus corrected misconceptions every time he heard one. Example: Who’s wife will the woman be in Heaven … that was married several times on Earth. Jesus said … there is no marriage in Heaven. That is another Mormon doctrine that Jesus specifically addressed.
 
Yes…it was said very clearly by Christ the man was not afflicted because of his parents…I see that with Mormons taking a direct quote by Christ…very clear and literal…and using it for something else…He was very clear that we do not marry in heaven…

Sex is for progeneration of the species, carnate…heaven is spiritual…although at end of world we will be resurrected…a new heaven and a new earth…
 
Ooh, it looks like our resident Mormon is at it again. Spirit babies now, huh? Hmmm.

First we have a thread about marrying dead people…and now we have one about dead men making spirit babies by having celestial sex with their dead wives on their own planets of which they are…wait for it…the resident deities.

Alrighty then.

So do we get to discuss Central American Jews with no Jewish DNA next? Or how about magic underwear? When do we get to talk about that?
 
It is looking like in Mormonism…willfully believe anything that is not the Catholic deposit of faith…but believe in Church defined heresies.
 
It is looking like in Mormonism…willfully believe anything that is not the Catholic deposit of faith…but believe in Church defined heresies.
Well, yes, but that’s not really how Mormonism is defined exactly. Joseph Smith, the man who came up with Mormonism, belonged to the Masonic Lodge. He joined the Lodge as a young man and was very impressed with it, so the Mormon religion shares a lot of features of Masonry. The ritual dress is almost exactly the same, for instance.

Add to that some Victorian cultural stuff, some stuff to “sell” the religion to prospective followers, and some personal stuff of Smith’s own, and you basically have the outline of Mormonism.

I’ve read a lot about Mormonism and there are some Mormons in my family. However, I’ve never seen any evidence that Joseph Smith had any experience with Catholicism or knew anything about Catholicism, except the things he might have heard as a Mason. After the Mormon migration to Utah, they were rather isolated for many years and this added to their remoteness from Catholicism; most Mormons simply never came into contact with most Catholics. So, most anything a Mormon might say about Catholicism has probably been made up in the last couple of decades as Mormonism has come into closer contact with Catholicism in the culture.

Mormonism, as you can see, is not a direct refutation of Catholicism. It inherited any anti-Catholic themes by way of the Masonic Lodge to which it’s very closely related. Mormons actually don’t tend to have much anti-Catholic prejudice because they haven’t been taught that, but most of them don’t understand classic Christianity at all. They use the same vocabulary as us, but they mean entirely different things than we do, only using the same words. It can be very confusing and Mormons and Christians usually “talk right past each other.” It can sound as if real communication is taking place, when none is.

Mormons can’t really be classified as Christians because their theology isn’t at all Christian. Their idea of God, for instance, is very, very different than ours. Mormons believe that if they are moral good Mormons in this life, they can go on to become gods themselves. They say, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become,” which is highly HERETICAL from a Catholic point of view.

They also believe that God has a wife and engages in the marital act to produce “spirit children” who then come to earth. If they live well, they become gods themselves. See the weirdness of that? It’s very non-Christian. It’s pagan and polytheistic.
 
Joseph Smith at one time told Alleman that next to the Latter Day Saints, Catholicism was the best religion. “For the priests attend to their people faithfully and mind their own business, whereas the other preachers are continually bothering the Latter Day Saints.” Father Alleman responded with thanks, saying “There was a diversity of opinion on that subject.”%between%
Later, he did have contact with a Catholic priest serving the Nauvoo area. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_George_Alleman

In addition, Fr. Alleman may have given Joseph Smith book which was an explanation of Catholic doctrines most frequently misunderstood by Protestants at that time. Joseph later gave that book to the Nauvoo library.
 
Later, he did have contact with a Catholic priest serving the Nauvoo area. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_George_Alleman

In addition, Fr. Alleman may have given Joseph Smith book which was an explanation of Catholic doctrines most frequently misunderstood by Protestants at that time. Joseph later gave that book to the Nauvoo library.
Well, maybe, but this is on Wikipedia and it’s well-known that there’s a lot of funny stuff on Wikipedia. Can you find some other documentation for this? I’ve never seen any real reference to this particular event before.
 
No, I originally found it on a site that charted (I think) the history of McDonough county (county where Macomb is) There is an Alleman Catholic High School in Rock Island. ** His comment about JS is well-recorded. ** I don’t know about the rest of the stuff on wiki. This wiki entry is recent. He did exist, and was there at the time.
 
No, I originally found it on a site that charted (I think) the history of McDonough county (county where Macomb is) There is an Alleman Catholic High School in Rock Island. ** His comment about JS is well-recorded. ** I don’t know about the rest of the stuff on wiki. This wiki entry is recent. He did exist, and was there at the time.
So let’s see a link to the JS/Alleman connection. (other than the wikipedia thing which I may or may not buy because wikipedia is wacky)
 
In harmony with local custom of avoiding mention of the Mormon era, is this next article on the history of the Catholic Church in Keokuk. I find it most interesting because of mention of the French/Indian Catholic population of the half-breed tract across the river in Iowa. iagenweb.org/lee/Church/StPeters/stpeter-1.htm Again, it mentions Fr. Alleman as having been there between 1840 and 1844.
 
This is untrue.
Joseph Smith, the man who came up with Mormonism, belonged to the Masonic Lodge. He joined the Lodge as a young man and was very impressed with it, so the Mormon religion shares a lot of features of Masonry.
Joseph Smith did not become a Mason until the Nauvoo era, although his brother Hyrum had been a Mason for quite some time. The anti-Masonic aura in several passages of the BoM may have something to do with his earlier attitudes during the Morgan affair. You can look that up.
From the prophet’s journal we derive a few bits of information touching the things that are of special interest. Unlike the Grand Master, Joseph Smith was not writing for the purpose of confounding his critics, or of making votes. Under date of Tuesday, March 15, he wrote: “I officiated as Grand Chaplain at the installation of the Nauvoo Lodge of Freemasons, at the Grove near the Temple. Grand Master Jonas, of Columbus, being present, a large number of people assembled on the occasion. The day was exceedingly fine; all things were done in order. In the evening** I received the first degree in Freemasonry in Nauvoo**** Lodge, **assembled in my general business once.” Under date of March 16th, the entry reads: “I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree.”(2)
From one other source a little indirect light falls upon the events connected with the institution of Nauvoo Lodge.
Not long after this lodge had been set to work, rumors of unusual proceedings therein became current. Report had it that the Nauvoo brethren set at naught certain established and well-known Masonic laws and usages. This gossip persisted and finally crystallized into open and unequivocal charges. On the 16th of July, following, Bodley Lodge No. 1, of Quincy, held a special meeting called for the purpose of considering the matter and taking such action as the facts might seem to warrant. After discussion, the sentiment of the meeting took the form of resolutions. One of these called upon Grand Master Jonas to suspend the dispensation of Nauvoo Lodge until the annual communication of Grand Lodge. Another throws a little light back upon the events connected with the institution of that lodge. This resolution reads: “Resolved, That Bodley Lodge No. 1, of Quincy, request of the Grand Lodge of the state of Illinois, that a committee be appointed at the next annual meeting of said lodge, to make enquiry into the manner the officers of the Nauvoo Lodge, U. D. were installed, and by what authority the Grand Master initiated, passed and raised Messrs. **Smith and Sidney Rigdon to the degrees of Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason, at one and the same time, **and that the proceedings of the committee be reported for the benefit of this lodge.”(3)
phoenixmasonry.org/mormonisn_and_masonry.htm

Once that happened, Joseph and friends transformed Mormonism into a pseudo-Masonic religion.
 
I just meant that it was beginning to look like…if the Catholic Church condemns it, it must be true…part of those old doctrines the Church hid and overlaid them with her corrupt ones…
 
I have reported that biased article on Fr. (St.) Alleman to the Diocese of Peoria. They should be able to straighten it out-- with authority. 😃
 
Joseph and friends transformed Mormonism into a pseudo-Masonic religion.
Except that the other masons around at the time, including ex LDS who were also masons, never made any accusation of the sort. The symbols and such that can be shown to be similar in appearance, are used in completely different manners and with totally different purposes.
Yes, it is possible that Joseph Smith was impressed with the teaching methods employed by Masonry, and endeavoured to use some of the same methodology to help to teach the revealed truths about the Temple ceremony: this is little different to anyone teaching a lesson using metaphor and imagery. The fact someone might use the technique of storytelling to get their point across to someone else, doesn’t mean that they plagarised the things they want to explain from another storyteller - both just use that same technique.
 
Except that the other masons around at the time, including ex LDS who were also masons, never made any accusation of the sort. The symbols and such that can be shown to be similar in appearance, are used in completely different manners and with totally different purposes.
Yes, it is possible that Joseph Smith was impressed with the teaching methods employed by Masonry, and endeavoured to use some of the same methodology to help to teach the revealed truths about the Temple ceremony: this is little different to anyone teaching a lesson using metaphor and imagery. The fact someone might use the technique of storytelling to get their point across to someone else, doesn’t mean that they plagarised the things they want to explain from another storyteller - both just use that same technique.
Another misrepresentation.

The temple ceremony (at least up till 1989 when I stopped going) was almost word for word, secret handshake for secret handshake like the Masonic ceremony.

It was Joseph’s Pattern.

He finds a book and copies it and copies the Bible to make the Book or Mormon.

he hears of people having visitations from jesus, so he has one.

He sees the Masonic ceremony, and copies it as his temple ceremony.

It was his modus operandi
 
Another misrepresentation.

The temple ceremony (at least up till 1989 when I stopped going) was almost word for word, secret handshake for secret handshake like the Masonic ceremony.

It was Joseph’s Pattern.

He finds a book and copies it and copies the Bible to make the Book or Mormon.

he hears of people having visitations from jesus, so he has one.

He sees the Masonic ceremony, and copies it as his temple ceremony.

It was his modus operandi
I couldn’t agree more. One of the most blatant examples of his “borrowing” from others in order to create his own religion is the fact that he used Elizabethan English when writing the BoM in mid-1800’s America. I suppose he thought that was how God spoke. As many scholars have pointed out, he didn’t do a very good job of using it properly unless he was just quoting directly from the KJV.
 
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