Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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I find it strange that you equate revealing truth with going against one’s free will. If what you say is true, it makes me wonder why Christ would have revealed the truth about himself. “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life…” Free will has do do with either accepting or rejecting truth. It has nothing to do with proving something true. Your statement implies that you could prove pre-mortal existence from scripture if you chose, but that you’re doing us all a favor by keeping it hidden. If that works for you, Parker, fine, but I find it completely unconvincing and not very honest.
SteveVH,

No, my statement said that I wouldn’t want to prove pre-mortal existence if it were provable from the Bible, as in the meaning of the word “prove”, but that the Bible doesn’t “prove” pre-mortal existence, as you and others have shown when scriptures that present “evidence of a belief in pre-mortal existence” have been cited and quoted.

I am trying to be honest by agreeing that the Bible would not “prove” pre-mortal existence because God, being all-knowing and all-powerful and also giving free will choice, would be going against His own plan if it were to be able to be “proven” using the Bible.

He is the One doing a favor, abiding by His own plan, which He obviously would do.
 
This is the biggest cop-out I’ve ever seen. If I proved it to you, then you’d have no choice but to believe, therefore I can’t prove it to you, because if you believed it based on my proof, it wouldn’t be true belief.

Are you serious?
Sally Butler,

When Jesus taught, “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6), then He was teaching an absolute truth about how one comes unto the Father, or even comes to know the Father–which He also taught. The Holy Ghost is also involved in those processes, as Jesus also taught.

There is a deliberate plan in place which is that personal prayer to God the Father, in the name of Jesus, is the pathway by which a person comes to know the Father and comes to know of a pre-mortal existence as being the pre-cursor to the plan of salvation. Without personal prayer about the subject, it is a case of looking at evidence and then using one’s free will choice, but that means the choice can go either way for any one person who looks at the evidence.

If you would like scriptures that I personally see as presenting “evidence”, such as the one that was quoted way early in the thread about the boy born blind, then I can do that, but it won’t be “proof”.
 
Becuase, like everyone has said, THERE IS NO PROOF! It’s a lie, right from Joe’s mouth, like polygamy, The Temple in Independece built in his generation, the list goes on. Seriously Parker, do yourself the favor, Lose the other 3 so-called “books of scripture”, and embrace the real Truth. Jesus can set you free!
 
Kathleen Gee,

This is a very good question. At the heart of the answer to it is the divergence into Aristotelian philosophy and the “First Cause” belief, as compared with a belief that humankind were sent here to earth to experience a “growth process” that is part of an “eternal progression” that began before the War in heaven where “the devil fought and his angels, and prevailed not”, and the devil and his angels were cast out of heaven down to this earth.

Gaining salvation in Christ is helped as a person realizes they need to totally trust and totally rely on the Savior for being their Teacher, their Guide, and being their One Intercessor and Advocate with the Father. As they do this, they will be repenting often (daily) through fervent prayer, and will no longer feel “cast out of the garden of Eden” because they will feel the guidance of the Savior and the Holy Ghost in their life, so their communication with Them will be part of their everyday experience, and they will feel answered and comforted.
I like the jab against Scholastic theology there…
I am not certain how the two concepts (Aristotelian philosophy and souls sent down to earth) correlate.
 
Neither the Bible or Aristotle prove anything about pre mortal existence…God is the Unmoved Mover…God the Cause, we are His effects.

To be pre mortal is to exist side by side with the Creator before we are created…in our true essence as human beings…bodies and souls…

If anything we can say that in myths…truth exists…both Jews and non-Jews in ancient Semitic cultures – including those before Abraham, believed in some kind of beginning man and woman…and conflict between good and evil…who they are, where they came from…and where they are going…the Jews drew on these ancient myths…but the ongoing truth the ancients discerned is that we were created and formed in flesh and soul by our Creator…

Not being tested two times, but once here on earth…deriving from our parents and God the giver of our soul and life itself…
 
1voice,

That is correct, nor would I want to “prove pre-mortal existence, using the Bible”–because that would mean I was trying to remove the opportunity for free will choice, which would mean I was going against what God established as the pattern for how He governs this world He created.

He governs it by providing free will choice, always, even in the Bible but especially in the Bible.

There are plenty of “evidences” of strong beliefs in pre-mortal existence, but if there were “proofs” then the reader would have had their free will choice taken away. That would directly contradict what God has in place in His plan of salvation, and would run counter to His purposes.
If that were the case then Christ’s resurrection would only be hinted at, not proclaimed in all of Christendom, just so we could use free will to believe Christ actually rose from the dead.
 
If that were the case then Christ’s resurrection would only be hinted at, not proclaimed in all of Christendom, just so we could use free will to believe Christ actually rose from the dead.
mwok,

There was recently a post by someone who believed that Jesus was resurrected but that it was not for forever (that He no longer has a physical body), so even such a basic belief as in the resurrection has to have some basis of faith and prayer to God.

I don’t understand why people find it so hard to believe that God the Father would want to have personal prayer and faith be pertinent to finding out spiritual truths. The apostle Paul certainly taught that this is a true principle of the gospel.
 
I find it strange that you equate revealing truth with going against one’s free will. If what you say is true, it makes me wonder why Christ would have revealed the truth about himself. “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life…” Free will has do do with either accepting or rejecting truth. It has nothing to do with proving something true. Your statement implies that you could prove pre-mortal existence from scripture if you chose, but that you’re doing us all a favor by keeping it hidden. If that works for you, Parker, fine, but I find it completely unconvincing and not very honest.
I don’t think Parker is saying he himself is keeping it hidden, he’s saying God is keeping it hidden. That God won’t be straightforward, that He will make sure you can’t know for sure, from anything He’s said in scripture, what the truth is. Though I can’t see what the point would be in having scripture if it isn’t there to present the truth. LDS seem to have this thing about having lots of choices, it is of paramount importance that they have lots of choices and that no one influence them in deciding. Another thing I don’t get since they send out thousands of missionaries to influence peoples choices. It seems that in their view, life is a multiple choice test and the more answers there are to choose from the better the test because it is best if you are confused and left alone to figure it out.
 
I don’t think Parker is saying he himself is keeping it hidden, he’s saying God is keeping it hidden. That God won’t be straightforward, that He will make sure you can’t know for sure, from anything He’s said in scripture, what the truth is. Though I can’t see what the point would be in having scripture if it isn’t there to present the truth. LDS seem to have this thing about having lots of choices, it is of paramount importance that they have lots of choices and that no one influence them in deciding. Another thing I don’t get since they send out thousands of missionaries to influence peoples choices. It seems that in their view, life is a multiple choice test and the more answers there are to choose from the better the test because it is best if you are confused and left alone to figure it out.
Zaffiroborant,

Missionaries teach people during the first lesson they give to someone, to pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, including learning to ask heart-felt questions in personal prayer. This does not mean “God won’t be straightforward”. It means this life is set up in such a way that personal prayer to establish a relationship with God that includes two-way communication, is part of the plan of salvation.

The Bible presents truth, but it also veils some truths, as when Jesus taught the Jews in parables but explained why He did that to the apostles and then gave them the meaning of the parable of the sower and the ground and the seeds.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice:
Parker,
You have never proven pre-mortal existence, using the Bible.
1voice,
That is correct, nor would I want to “prove pre-mortal existence, using the Bible”–because that would mean I was trying to remove the opportunity for free will choice, which would mean I was going against what God established as the pattern for how He governs this world He created.

He governs it by providing free will choice, always, even in the Bible but especially in the Bible.

There are plenty of “evidences” of strong beliefs in pre-mortal existence, but if there were “proofs” then the reader would have had their free will choice taken away. That would directly contradict what God has in place in His plan of salvation, and would run counter to His purposes.
The following describes the creation of Adam … Adam became a living entity separate from God only after God formed him from the dust of the Earth and then breathed his own breath of life in Adam’s face… plus nothing.

How does this Bible verse fit with the LDS concept of Adam’s having a pre-mortal existence as a separate form/ individual/ spirit being/ son of God?

Genesis 2:7

και / έπλασεν ο θεός / τον / άνθρωπον / χουν / λαβών / από / της / γης / και /
And / God shaped / the / man, / dust / taking / from / the / earth. / And /

ενεφύσησεν / εις / ενεφύσησεν αυτού / πνοήν ζωής / και / εγένετο άνθρωπος / εις /
he breathed / into / his face / breath of life, / and / became man / a /

ψυχήν / ζώσαν
soul / living

studybible.info/interlinear/Genesis%202:7
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice:
Parker,
You have never proven pre-mortal existence, using the Bible.

The following describes the creation of Adam … Adam became a living entity separate from God only after God formed him from the dust of the Earth and then breathed his own breath of life in Adam’s face… plus nothing.

How does this Bible verse fit with the concept of Adam’s having a pre-mortal existence as a separate form/ individual/ spirit being/ son of God?

Genesis 2:7

και / έπλασεν ο θεός / τον / άνθρωπον / χουν / λαβών / από / της / γης / και /
And / God shaped / the / man, / dust / taking / from / the / earth. / And /

ενεφύσησεν / εις / ενεφύσησεν αυτού / πνοήν ζωής / και / εγένετο άνθρωπος / εις /
he breathed / into / his face / breath of life, / and / became man / a /

ψυχήν / ζώσαν
soul / living

studybible.info/interlinear/Genesis%202:7
1voice,

It’s an incomplete picture, because as Genesis 3:19 says “till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return”–which says nothing at all about the spirit that is part of the soul of man. It is talking about the “body” of man.

The word “breathed” is often, within Biblical understanding and Jewish culture, taken as meaning “spirit.” So God “breathed” Adam’s spirit into his physical body, or in other words placed his spirit into his physical body, but that doesn’t say anything about where the spirit came from, other than “from God”.
 
mwok,

There was recently a post by someone who believed that Jesus was resurrected but that it was not for forever (that He no longer has a physical body), so even such a basic belief as in the resurrection has to have some basis of faith and prayer to God.

I don’t understand why people find it so hard to believe that God the Father would want to have personal prayer and faith be pertinent to finding out spiritual truths. The apostle Paul certainly taught that this is a true principle of the gospel.
I don’t find it hard to believe that God wants me to plead to Him and believe that there is a supernatural world that I can’t understand as a finite being. What I reject is that I was with God when He created all things through Jesus Christ. My belief is that it was the Word that was with God before all creation.
 
The following describes the creation of Adam … Adam became a living entity separate from God only after God formed him from the dust of the Earth and then breathed his own breath of life in Adam’s face… plus nothing.

How does this Bible verse fit with the concept of Adam’s having a pre-mortal existence as a separate form/ individual/ spirit being/ son of God?

Genesis 2:7

και / έπλασεν ο θεός / τον / άνθρωπον / χουν / λαβών / από / της / γης / και /
And / God shaped / the / man, / dust / taking / from / the / earth. / And /

ενεφύσησεν / εις / ενεφύσησεν αυτού / πνοήν ζωής / και / εγένετο άνθρωπος / εις /
he breathed / into / his face / breath of life, / and / became man / a /

ψυχήν / ζώσαν
soul / living

studybible.info/interlinear/Genesis%202:7
1voice,

It’s an incomplete picture, because as Genesis 3:19 says “till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return”–which says nothing at all about the spirit that is part of the soul of man. It is talking about the “body” of man.
Genisis 2:7 is a description of how God created Adam. It is clear from the text that there is a physical part ( the dust) and a soul/ spiritual part. God said that the part of man that is made from the dust … will return to dust. The focus of my question is not on the physical (mortal) part of Adam. It is perfectly clear where the physical part of Adam came from. My focus is on where the soul/ spiritual part of Adam came from.
The word “breathed” is often, within Biblical understanding and Jewish culture, taken as meaning “spirit.” So God “breathed” Adam’s spirit into his physical body, or in other words placed his spirit into his physical body, but that doesn’t say anything about where the spirit came from, other than “from God”.
So … You dont take the words on the page at face value?
… That God “breathed (directly out of his own mouth) into his (Adams) face” …Literally using God’s own “breath of life” (Spirit)… and beginning at that point (according to the verse) Adam became “a living soul” with his own being/form/awareness.
 
1voice,

That is correct, nor would I want to “prove pre-mortal existence, using the Bible”–
So, after 900+ posts, you’re finally admitting that there is absolutely ***no evidence ***of the preexistence of man, anywhere in the Bible? You could have saved us all a lot of time by admitting to that fact in your very first response, instead of pussyfooting around the subject and trying to argue that there is. 🤷
because that would mean I was trying to remove the opportunity for free will choice, which would mean I was going against what God established as the pattern for how He governs this world He created. He governs it by providing free will choice, always, even in the Bible but especially in the Bible.
So basically, what you’re saying is that God makes us all play silly guessing games to figure out what He really expects us to do, because none of the lessons that are taught in the Bible mean what we might think they mean. The Bible is just God’s ‘puzzle/story book’ that serves no other purpose than to tell men fantasy tales, then they have to try to figure out the real meanings for themselves, before being able to understand what God really wants them to do. At least, that’s what it sounds like you’re implying to me, considering all of your recent posts.

Doesn’t any of it really mean what it says? Or, is it just that some of it needs to be jumbled around, using some kind of ‘secret code of phrases’ that only a few ‘elite’ people (LDS) know, to make it understandable? I’m not so sure that God intended to confuse us all, instead of telling us the plain and simple truth, in easy to understand language. Do you really think God sent Jesus, just to confuse us even more than the Jews of the Old Testament were confused by all of the prophecies about Him? I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure He came to tell us the plain and simple truth about God, and it’s all contained in the Bible and the Holy Tradition of His Church.

I’m always amazed at the great lengths LDS will go to, in order to make themselves look so much more ‘holy’ than anyone else, by claiming they have it all figured out, while the rest of us are blind fools that can’t possibly understand the complexity of God’s ‘plan’. They certainly seem to think they’re better informed than any other Christians that have ever existed in the 2000 years of history since Jesus walked the earth.

They also have to believe Jesus was incapable of carrying out His mission, to establish an Everlasting Covenant with mankind, that He promised would never be broken. But, they claim that it was completely and irrevocably broken, shortly after the Apostles that He personally chose to carry out that mission, died. So, not only did Jesus fail, but His most trusted Apostles also failed, miserably. Then, 1800 years later, God apparently decided to send Joseph Smith as His ‘greatest’ gift to mankind, who would finally save the whole world, and never fail like Jesus did… twice.

LDS also insinuate that God plays favorites by only choosing a select few, at the end of the world, to be “exalted” and become “gods” like Him. He also sets up everyone else to fail, just like He did to Adam & Eve. Even though, that kind of predetermination of events would be a blatant contradiction to our ever really having free will, or any hard choices to make for ourselves at all. All of those things make God look like an evil tyrant, that seems to take pleasure in playing such sadistic games with His “less favored” children, that they have no hope of ever winning. It takes some real hutzpah for anyone to dare to make God appear to be so evil. But, Joseph Smith sure had an overabundance of hutzpah.
There are plenty of “evidences” of strong beliefs in pre-mortal existence, but if there were “proofs” then the reader would have had their free will choice taken away. That would directly contradict what God has in place in His plan of salvation, and would run counter to His purposes.
Everyone has a choice between believing in the simple Truth of Jesus, and believing the lies that are whispered in their mind’s ear by the devil. Listening to the Holy Spirit, and discerning the difference between those two things, is the real test of faith that we all need to pass in order to have eternal life.
 
The following describes the creation of Adam … Adam became a living entity separate from God only after God formed him from the dust of the Earth and then breathed his own breath of life in Adam’s face… plus nothing.

How does this Bible verse fit with the concept of Adam’s having a pre-mortal existence as a separate form/ individual/ spirit being/ son of God?

Genesis 2:7

και / έπλασεν ο θεός / τον / άνθρωπον / χουν / λαβών / από / της / γης / και /
And / God shaped / the / man, / dust / taking / from / the / earth. / And /

ενεφύσησεν / εις / ενεφύσησεν αυτού / πνοήν ζωής / και / εγένετο άνθρωπος / εις /
he breathed / into / his face / breath of life, / and / became man / a /

ψυχήν / ζώσαν
soul / living

studybible.info/interlinear/Genesis%202:7

Genisis 2:7 is a description of how God created Adam. It is clear from the text that there is a physical part ( the dust) and a soul/ spiritual part. God said that the part of man that is made from the dust … will return to dust. The focus of my question is not on the physical (mortal) part of Adam. It is perfectly clear where the physical part of Adam came from. My focus is on where the soul/ spiritual part of Adam came from.

So … You dont take the words on the page at face value (literally)?
… That God “breathed (directly out of his own mouth) into his (Adams) face” …Literally using God’s own “breath of life” (Spirit)… and beginning at that point (according to the verse) Adam became “a living soul” with his own being/form/awareness.
 
The following describes the creation of Adam … Adam became a living entity separate from God only after God formed him from the dust of the Earth and then breathed his own breath of life in Adam’s face… plus nothing.

How does this Bible verse fit with the concept of Adam’s having a pre-mortal existence as a separate form/ individual/ spirit being/ son of God?

Genesis 2:7

και / έπλασεν ο θεός / τον / άνθρωπον / χουν / λαβών / από / της / γης / και /
And / God shaped / the / man, / dust / taking / from / the / earth. / And /

ενεφύσησεν / εις / ενεφύσησεν αυτού / πνοήν ζωής / και / εγένετο άνθρωπος / εις /
he breathed / into / his face / breath of life, / and / became man / a /

ψυχήν / ζώσαν
soul / living

studybible.info/interlinear/Genesis%202:7

Genisis 2:7 is a description of how God created Adam. It is clear from the text that there is a physical part ( the dust) and a soul/ spiritual part. God said that the part of man that is made from the dust … will return to dust. The focus of my question is not on the physical (mortal) part of Adam. It is perfectly clear where the physical part of Adam came from. My focus is on where the soul/ spiritual part of Adam came from.

So … You dont take the words on the page at face value?
… That God “breathed (directly out of his own mouth) into his (Adams) face” …Literally using God’s own “breath of life” (Spirit)… and beginning at that point (according to the verse) Adam became “a living soul” with his own being/form/awareness.
1voice,

The text doesn’t say “God’s own breath of life”. It says “breathed into his face breath of life”. Only after that step was Adam a “living soul”, which means that there were two parts to Adam’s “living soul”–a physical part (the body), and a spiritual part that came from God (the spirit). See Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV or using a transliteration from Hebrew), which clearly and simply reiterates this.
 
1voice,

The text doesn’t say “God’s own breath of life”. It says “breathed into his face breath of life”. Only after that step was Adam a “living soul”, which means that there were two parts to Adam’s “living soul”–a physical part (the body), and a spiritual part that came from God (the spirit). See Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV or using a transliteration from Hebrew), which clearly and simply reiterates this.
This is where the LDS distortion of the Holy Trinity comes into play. Yes it was God’s own breath of life because Jesus Christ is “The Way, The Truth, and The Life” so God breathed the same essence that He breathed when he created everything else through Jesus.

Makes me wonder if when God created me, he exhaled. And when I die, he inhales.
 
So, after 900+ posts, you’re finally admitting that there is absolutely ***no evidence ***of the preexistence of man, anywhere in the Bible? You could have saved us all a lot of time by admitting to that fact in your very first response, instead of pussyfooting around the subject and trying to argue that there is. 🤷

So basically, what you’re saying is that God makes us all play silly guessing games to figure out what He really expects us to do, because none of the lessons that are taught in the Bible mean what we might think they mean. The Bible is just God’s ‘puzzle/story book’ that serves no other purpose than to tell men fantasy tales, then they have to try to figure out the real meanings for themselves, before being able to understand what God really wants them to do. At least, that’s what it sounds like you’re implying to me, considering all of your recent posts.

Doesn’t any of it really mean what it says? Or, is it just that some of it needs to be jumbled around, using some kind of ‘secret code of phrases’ that only a few ‘elite’ people (LDS) know, to make it understandable? I’m not so sure that God intended to confuse us all, instead of telling us the plain and simple truth, in easy to understand language. Do you really think God sent Jesus, just to confuse us even more than the Jews of the Old Testament were confused by all of the prophecies about Him? I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure He came to tell us the plain and simple truth about God, and it’s all contained in the Bible and the Holy Tradition of His Church.

I’m always amazed at the great lengths LDS will go to, in order to make themselves look so much more ‘holy’ than anyone else, by claiming they have it all figured out, while the rest of us are blind fools that can’t possibly understand the complexity of God’s ‘plan’. They certainly seem to think they’re better informed than any other Christians that have ever existed in the 2000 years of history since Jesus walked the earth.

They also have to believe Jesus was incapable of carrying out His mission, to establish an Everlasting Covenant with mankind, that He promised would never be broken. But, they claim that it was completely and irrevocably broken, shortly after the Apostles that He personally chose to carry out that mission, died. So, not only did Jesus fail, but His most trusted Apostles also failed, miserably. Then, 1800 years later, God apparently decided to send Joseph Smith as His ‘greatest’ gift to mankind, who would finally save the whole world, and never fail like Jesus did… twice.

LDS also insinuate that God plays favorites by only choosing a select few, at the end of the world, to be “exalted” and become “gods” like Him. He also sets up everyone else to fail, just like He did to Adam & Eve. Even though, that kind of predetermination of events would be a blatant contradiction to our ever really having free will, or any hard choices to make for ourselves at all. All of those things make God look like an evil tyrant, that seems to take pleasure in playing such sadistic games with His “less favored” children, that they have no hope of ever winning. It takes some real hutzpah for anyone to dare to make God appear to be so evil. But, Joseph Smith sure had an overabundance of hutzpah.

Everyone has a choice between believing in the simple Truth of Jesus, and believing the lies that are whispered in their mind’s ear by the devil. Listening to the Holy Spirit, and discerning the difference between those two things, is the real test of faith that we all need to pass in order to have eternal life.
Well said.👍
 
I wonder ParkerD, if you could attempt a defense of the belief in pre-mortal existence of souls on philosophical grounds - this might help clear some things up.
 
1voice,

The text doesn’t say “God’s own breath of life”. It says “breathed into his face breath of life”.
The physical part of Adam was made from the dust created by God.

So, You dont believe that it was God’s own (personal) breath that contains/is the “breath of life” … that God “breathed into his (Adam’s) face”?
 
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