sedevacantism

[bengal_fan]

Ham1:

What do you mean “wacko?”

It is commonly known that, in 1953, the US government smuggled secret documents that were obtained from Ozgorthian extraterrestrials from Area 51 to The Vatican. It was these notes that were then taken by masonic cardinals and distilled into Vatican II. These cardinals worked as a part of the Pentavirate (along with the Queen of England, The Gettys, The Rothchilds, and Colonel Sanders) and are using Vatican II to achieve world domination!

oooh i hate the colonel. with his beady eyes. “oh you’re gonna eat my chicken!” he puts an addictive substance in his chicken which makes you crave it fortnightly!

 

[Aelfwine]

Les Richardson:

Is it your opinion then, that God is limited and cannot in the person of the Holy Spirit speak and act, convict and yes “save” within or without Holy Mother Church, in spite of the lack of vision on the part of Catholics who would rather debate and/or misuse Vatican II than preach the gospel? Do you think He is powerless without us? While the Pharisees and Sadducees were debating, the Messiah arrived in their midst and they didn’t recognize him.

Regardless of speculation on who is or is not saved, our responsibility to proclaim the truth to all is not lessened. That is the message of Vatican II. Those who quote from it to discredit it, are doing the same as those who rushed headlong into corrupting the Church using Vatican II as their excuse. They both take the teachings out of context for their own purposes. The fruits of the past forty years are the fruits of sinful men, not from the teachings of Vatican II. Read it through in context. It does not contradict the sum of Holy Tradition that came before.
God gives His Grace where He wills, not where we allow Him. He is all-powerful and could end this argument by wiping the slate clean and starting fresh. I for one, would not presume to tell Him where or when he can give His Grace.

No. The Church was founded by Christ as the one Ark of Salvation. There is no other. De fide. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. De fide. Prove otherwise. You can’t . If you believe otherwise, you are a heretic.

 

[justme]

Aelfwine:

No. The Church was founded by Christ as the one Ark of Salvation. There is no other. De fide. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. De fide. Prove otherwise. You can’t . If you believe otherwise, you are a heretic.

So now you are binding God?

Yes, as far as we know there is no salvation outside the Church…

But that does not mean that God can not (and does not) grant salvation.

Everyone before the Church was formed? Were they granted salvation? If so then it is within God’s power to grant salvation to those outside the Church, as they were.

 

[Paul_Danon]

Les Richardson:

Is it your opinion then, that God is limited and cannot in the person of the Holy Spirit speak and act, convict and yes “save” within or without Holy Mother Church … ?]

My opinion (as I am so amply demonstrating on this thread!) is worth little. What matters in these life-and-death matters is God’s opinion as taught by His church.

That church teaches that there is no salvation outside her. That isn’t to suggest that God is in any way limited, but that He chooses to act in a particular way. Our Lord chose only certain people, some whom He chose would not follow Him, and some who followed Him subsequently went away.

When one looks at papal teaching on the church’s unique role, one is spoiled for choice, but here’s Pio Nono:
Pius IX:

… it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation …

Les Richardson:

Regardless of speculation on who is or is not saved …

I’m not speculating about individuals; just trying to clarify whether, for example, God uses the church of England to save people.
Les Richardson:

… our responsibility to proclaim the truth to all is not lessened. That is the message of Vatican II.

Surely it’s not. If Anglicans have a life of grace with the holy Ghost present in their liturgies and their church a means of salvation, they’re laughing.
Les Richardson:

… [sedevacantists] take the teachings out of context …

But how it is taking unitatis redintegratio out of context to say that it says: “The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community.”? I mean, it does say that.
Les Richardson:

[Vatican II] does not contradict the sum of Holy Tradition that came before.

But it does, to whit:

• Pius IX: “… outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved …”
• Paul VI: “… the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using [protestant churches] as means of salvation …”

Les Richardson:

I for one, would not presume to tell Him where or when he can give His Grace.

Nor would I, but He has told us.

 

[theMutant]

Aelfwine:

No. The Church was founded by Christ as the one Ark of Salvation. There is no other. De fide. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. De fide. Prove otherwise. You can’t .

Vatican II, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II have never taught that any other church was founded by Christ as an Ark of Salvation. Prove otherwise. You can’t. They never taught that Christ established any other church. Prove otherwise. You can’t. They never taught that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. Prove otherwise. You can’t.

Several others have tried to assert that they have, but every text brought forward to demonstrate this claim has been refuted.

 

[theMutant]

justme:

So now you are binding God?

Yes, as far as we know there is no salvation outside the Church…

But that does not mean that God can not (and does not) grant salvation.

Everyone before the Church was formed? Were they granted salvation? If so then it is within God’s power to grant salvation to those outside the Church, as they were.

I’m afraid that you might be teetering on the edge here. God does not grant salvation apart from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not and cannot teach otherwise. Those from before the Church’s foundation did not enter heaven until Christ established the Church and ascended to the Father. Their salvation (entrance to heaven) was granted through Sacrifice of Christ. The grace of His Sacrifice is granted through the Catholic Church alone. This is the teaching of the Church and all Catholics must accept it.

This does not represent a limitation on God and to suggest otherwise contradicts the content and reasoning of Christian faith. Why do we believe that God completely wipes out all traces of original and actual sin from our soul on baptism? Because that is what God said he would do. We know this because the authoritative teaching of the Church Chris founded tells us under the grace of infallibility that it is so. This is not a limitation we impose on God but the result of God’s own promise that he would do this. God cannot be limited except by his own will.

 

[Paul_Danon]

justme:

So now you are binding God?

I don’t think Aelfwine is. To tell someone what God’s teaching is isn’t to tell God what to teach. If I tell you God is triune isn’t the same as my telling Him to be thus.

justme:

… as far as we know there is no salvation outside the Church …

You say “as far as we know”, but surely we don’t doubt the church’s teaching.

 

[Paul_Danon]

theMutant:

Vatican II, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II … never taught that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. Prove otherwise.

Paul VI:

… the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using [protestant churches] as means of salvation …

QED

 

[justme]

Paul, I understand what you are saying here but you also selectively quoted me…

What about those who were here before the Church came to be? They were outside of the Church, so are they damned to Hell?

If so then it is funny that the Church acknowledges them as Saints…

Also, while we know what the Church teaches, the Church also teaches us that we can not know the state of ones soul or their final resting place, be it Heaven or Hell…

That is except for the Saints who are known to be in Heaven.

 

[theMutant]

Paul Danon:

unitatis redintegratio, 1964
… the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using [protestant churches] as means of salvation …

I find it very telling that you refuse to complete the sentence; especially in light of the explanations I have already presented. The rest of the sentence goes “which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.” The grace does not come to them apart from the one and only Catholic Church. This is what Unitatis Redintegratio teaches.

 

[jordan]

Mandi:

Jesus left “The Church” 4 marks by which we could alway recognize it (and I’m kind of wondering why He did this, unless He knew that we might have a hard time recognizing it ) “You will know My Church by these four marks” One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Now even I can see that Vactican II is no longer “One” and I look to Hollywood to show that it is no longer Holy, why because I have notice a bizzare coincidence, when Hollywood wants to portary something as “Holy” they look to the Traditional Church to find it, sacred music, Latin Mass, chanting Monks etc. - Not guitar strumming, hand clapping, praise the Lord, Billy Graham or Baptist Fundamentalists and definately NOT Charismatic Catholics or speaking in Tongues - which strongly resembles something “Satanic”

Our Lord said if one of these Marks is missing it will not be My Church.

hmmm: I asked earlier for a definition of “The Church” I think I just gave it to myself! lol)

The unity of the Church is through the authority of the successor of Peter and the Episcopal College. What you would call holy, I also call holy. What you’ve got a problem with, I’ve also got a problem with. All that you mention above as holy are still a part of the Church I love. She gave birth to them and desires to preserve them…according to the documents of VII. There has been much done wrongly. What many have done wrongly “in the spirit” of VII is not directed in any VII document. Much of what has been done was certainly not influenced by the Holy Spirit. The window of change let in all kinds of demons. I see a struggle going on today, and I hope that some of the damage control efforts will curb in abuses, but that requires obedience where it has been sadly lacking…from laity, priests, and many bishops. But the Church is Holy, because, in the end, despite sinful human nature, we have a promise that she will be guided by the Holy Spirit into all Truth. That didn’t stop with VII, although there has been a noticeable bump in the road to eternity. Perhaps the Church needs to stop trying, like St. Paul, to “be all to all,” and work toward a more standard and stable approach. This is what I see coming. In the meantime, I’ll go to my indult Mass when I can, and talk to my parish priests when they do things that I believe to be wrong.

And yes, we are Catholic, and Apostolic.

 

[Therese_Martin]

Notice:

**As the topic of sedevacantism is apparently one that cannot be discussed without a good deal of contentiousness, this thread is now closed and the subject of sedevacantism will not be allowed to be discussed until further notice from the moderation staff.

Thank you to all who participated in the discussion.**