Seeking a balanced description of Mormoninsm

[po18guy]

Everything in Mormonism, or just the parts that contradict Catholicism? I would hate to have to renounce Christ, charity, and good works to become Catholic.

You embrace these things to become Catholic.

Also, LDS use different definitions than you are used to, so be careful: The LDS Christ is Divine, but wasn’t always. He started as a man. That denies his divine conception, and is not in accord with Sacred Tradition or Scripture…

Christian Trinitarian baptism means in the eternal trinity, not in the LDS Christ who ascended to godhood. This also flies in the face of Scripture and Tradition.

The practice of the LDS has many desirable traits, but the foundation was by man, attested to by man. They shun those who “apostatize”, just as the JWs do, which psychologically traps many who want to leave and convert.

Here is an interesting link: exmormon.org/

Christ’s peace.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Everything in Mormonism, or just the parts that contradict Catholicism? I would hate to have to renounce Christ, charity, and good works to become Catholic.

You have to embrace everything that the Catholic Church teaches, and reject everything that it teaches is false.

1The Church teaches that God the Father has no body, so you must reject the notion that the Mormon teaching to the contrary. 2The Church teaches that there was never an apostasy, so you must reject the idea that the Mormon church is the restoration of the true church.
3The Church teaches that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, so you must reject the idea that the leader of the Mormon church is a prophet.
4The Church teaches that apostolic succession is necessary for the priesthood, so you must reject the idea that the Mormon church has a valid priesthood.
5The Church teaches that contraception and abortion are grave sins, so you must reject any teaching that these acts may be permissible.
6 The Church teaches that any occult practices are grave sins, and you must abandon them.
7 The Church teaches that marriage is only for this world, you must reject the belief in eternal marriage.
8 The Church teaches that you cannot receive communion in a non-Catholic church, therefore you must never receive communion at a Mormon church ever again.
9 The Church teaches that if you have to choose between following your conscience, and following the Church, you must follow the Church.
10 The Church teaches that only the 73 books in the Bible are the only inspired Scriptures, therefore you must reject the idea that the Book of Mormon is revealed Scripture.

If you can’t do any of the above, please don’t be a Catholic. You would be lying to others, lying to yourself, and worse, lying to God. You would be placing your immortal soul at risk.

 

[valient_Lucy]

To what extent can a Catholic participate in Zen Buddhist, Taoist, Confucian, etc., rituals and still take communion?

Why would a Catholic WANT to participate in any of those rituals? To have the fullness of the Catholic Faith and to use those rituals, is, as another writer said, “to stand at the base of Niagra Falls and to instead try to drink a thimble full of rainwater.”

 

[psyche23]

Thank you, just what we needed!

 

[psyche23]

Before you go insulting us, please do research beforehand and explain why it is you disagree without being disrespectful. The Catholic Church’s teachings make beautiful sense, but it seems obvious to me that you don’t really want to find out why the Church teaches what it does. So as much as I have tried to be polite and respectful of your religion, I would expect you to do the same for mine/ours. We have done nothing than explain ourselves and all we get in reply is an absurd comment that says nothing except you think we’re idiots. Well, I think I’ve had enough of this conversation myself. If you want true Catholic teaching, I’d reccommend reading Scott Hahn, or Ted Sri, or listening to John Martignoni, any of the church fathers or perhaps taking it a step further by reading what the popes have to say on the subject(s). Maybe I’m taking way too much offense at this because it’s 3:41 am, maybe the internet is too easy to misinterpret things, or maybe I’m just tired of people taking cheap shots at my faith.

It seems everywhere on these forums there’s someone who comes on solely to insult us. I had hoped to try and make this discussion a fruitful one. I don’t mind explaining myself, if what results is good communication. But I think I’m done with this particular forum.

Good night and God Bless.

 

[zerinus]

zerinus,
Thank you for the explanation of your faith. It helps to know the differences we have as well as the similarities. Of course you know I’ll have to disagree with you on apostolic succession (and probably others as well, but we’ll stick with this one for now). Of course you’re on a Catholic website so that should be obvious we will disagree. I would like to know why Mormans think the apostolic succession was broken in the first place and needed to be restored.

Before answering that question, I should like to add first that the LDS Church is not built on the premise of the Apostasy. Joseph Smith did not start Mormonism on the basis of the Apostasy. He did not say, “Christianity is apostate, therefore let’s start a new religion”. Joseph Smith was just 14 years old when he had his First Vision; and he did not go the woods to start a new religion. He went there in order to inquire of the Lord in prayer to know which church was right, so that he knew which one to join. It was the Lord that then informed him that none of the churches were right (implying that there had been an apostasy), and that he should join none of them; and that at some future date the true church would be restored through him.

I am not a Mormon because I believe in the Apostasy; I believe in the Apostasy because I am a Mormon. I am a Mormon because the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true. When I read the Book of Mormon, or when I actively participate in the life of the Church, the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true, and that its leaders are inspired of the Lord and speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. Having determined (independently) that the LDS Church is true, I am led to the (inevitable) conclusion that an Apostasy must have occurred to make the Restoration necessary. That is how I come to believe in the Apostasy.

But in answer to your question: “Why Mormons think the apostolic succession was broken in the first place and needed to be restored?” That is because we can see the results of it all around us. Is the Catholic Church led by revelation today? The answer is no! Does the Pope even claim to be able to lead it by revelation? No! Is it led by the Twelve Apostles, as the ancient Church used to be? No! The early Church was led by the Twelve Apostles; and the Bible teaches that that institution was never intended to be done away with, but to continue forever leading and directing the church by revelation. That is why when one Apostle died another was chosen to succeed him. But where is it now?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Ok, respectfully don’t agree. . . . Maybe you can give some specifics as to how men changed the “ordinances and doctrines that he and his Apostles had established”. I’m looking for specific instinces here.

Yes; infant baptism, transubstantiation, and the Immaculate Conception. That is enough to get you started.

And how do you know exactly when (or even if) divine revelation left the apostles? I argue it never left.

Divine revelation didn’t leave the Apostles; the Apostles left the church.

Besides, why would God put his son on earth to send a message that was only to get lost for centuries? It doesn’t make sense to me? If the message was so important, why would he allow it to fade away only to get brought back by someone years down the line?

Because that has been the pattern of God dealings with mankind since throughout history. Since the creation, whenever God has revealed a true religion to mankind, that religion over the centuries has become corrupted and lost, which necessitated a restoration of true relation to man by a new dispensation at some point later on. God sent His Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world, not to stop that process from happening. That happens because of man’s transgression, not because God wills it. God does not override man’s freewill. If some people want to transgress, and apostatize, He is not going to exercise His omnipotent power to stop them from doing it. He will allow them to sin if they are determined to, and suffer the consequences. He will send prophet to warn them, but will not step in to override their agency to do so. That is what causes apostasy; after which a restoration at some point becomes necessary. But the fact that the early church apostatized is both prophesied in the NT, as well as shown how it happened.

Sorry, one last thing I forgot. So if you’re saying the trinity is 3 seperate persons, wouldn’t that make for multiple Gods? We are supposed to worship One God and One God alone.

Yes it does. The fact that both the Bible and the early church taught multiple gods is a long story that cannot be told in a few words. You can read it in these posts:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

The only way to do this is if the three are actually One. For example, I am a daughter, sister, and friend all in one. Take any of those away from me and I am not the same person, but they are all aspects of what makes me me. Or you could say, I have a Body, a Soul and a Mind. Without any of those three things, I would be very much diminished.

No! We don’t agree!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

In order to explain this, Mormons would say that they do not worship Christ or the Holy Spirit. They only worship God the Father, even though they consider Christ and the Holy Spirit to be members of the godhead. Worship is for God the Father alone, not for Christ or the Holy Spirit. This is unbiblical, but it is their position. We as Catholics, however, would say that we worship all three because they are all the same God.

That is not true. We worship Jesus as well as the Father. Our modern scriptures tells us that we should worship the Son as well as the Father. However, in our prayers we address the Father in the name of the Son, as commanded us by the Lord in the Bible:

Matthew 6:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 11:

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn’t pray as the Lord commanded us to?

zerinus

 

[valient_Lucy]

Because that has been the pattern of God dealings with mankind since throughout history. Since the creation, whenever God has revealed a true religion to mankind, that religion over the centuries has become corrupted and lost, which necessitated a restoration of true relation to man by a new dispensation at some point later on. God sent His Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world, not to stop that process from happening. That happens because of man’s transgression, not because God wills it. God does not override man’s freewill. If some people want to transgress, and apostatize, He is not going to exercise His omnipotent power to stop them from doing it. He will allow them to sin if they are determined to, and suffer the consequences. He will send prophet to warn them, but will not step in to override their agency to do so. That is what causes apostasy; after which a restoration at some point becomes necessary. But the fact that the early church apostatized is both prophesied in the NT, as well as shown how it happened.

zerinus

Are you anticipating that the Mormon Church will apostatize? What will happen when the Mormon Church does go into apostasy? What will you do if this happens in your lifetime?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Are you anticipating that the Mormon Church will apostatize? What will happen when the Mormon Church does go into apostasy? What will you do if this happens in your lifetime?

Mormons have been splitting off and forming their own versions of mormonism since the religion began. So whenever I say, “Dang mormons, always starting their own relgion”, it is because it is a historical fact. Starting with Joseph Smith.

In every instance, the splinter occurs because a belief, or claimed revelation received by the splinter group leader, that the main body being splintered from is believed to be in error, or apostasy.

wikipedia has a decent entry on the lds religious movement

 

[zerinus]

Are you anticipating that the Mormon Church will apostatize? What will happen when the Mormon Church does go into apostasy? What will you do if this happens in your lifetime?

No, that will not happen. This is the last dispensation before the Second Coming of Christ. It is “the dispensation of the fulness of times” in which God will “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). It is prophesied that it will not apostatize until God’s work in it completely accomplished, and the end time finally comes. It is “the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands” that destroyed all other kingdoms; and itself became “a great mountain, and filled the whole earth” (Daniel 2:31–45). Therefore it will not apostatize.

That is not to say that individuals and groups will not apostatize form it; but the church itself it has been prophesied that will not apostatize.

zerinus

 

[Paul_G]

Mormons have been splitting off and forming their own versions of mormonism since the religion began. So whenever I say, “Dang mormons, always starting their own relgion”, it is because it is a historical fact. Starting with Joseph Smith.

In every instance, the splinter occurs because a belief, or claimed revelation received by the splinter group leader, that the main body being splintered from is believed to be in error, or apostasy.

wikipedia has a decent entry on the lds religious movement

There is a difference between people apostatizing from the church, attaching themselves to other denominations or starting up one of their own, and the Church itself. The Book of Mormon is full of stories were this has happened. Human nature has not changed and I am sure this pattern will repeat itself. As the Savoir said, “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matt. 7:14)

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

There is a difference between people apostatizing from the church, attaching themselves to other denominations or starting up one of their own, and the Church itself. The Book of Mormon is full of stories were this has happened. Human nature has not changed and I am sure this pattern will repeat itself. As the Savoir said, “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matt. 7:14)

Paul

Yeah, that is true about the Church that Christ started. Which wouldn’t be mormonism. Mormonism is nothing but a church that Smith fired up out of his imagination.

 

[Paul_G]

Yeah, that is true about the Church that Christ started. Which wouldn’t be mormonism. Mormonism is nothing but a church that Smith fired up out of his imagination.

The difference from my point of view is the faithful people of the early Church did not remove themselves; it was the authority of its leaders that was removed. So you are right this is not the same as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

Paul

 

[BartBurk]

This is all you need to know about Mormonism:

irr.org/mit/bompage.html

 

[Paul_G]

This is all you need to know about Mormonism:

irr.org/mit/bompage.html

All you need to know if you want material to feed your bias.

Paul

 

[SandraQ]

All that you need to know about Mormonism is that its followers believe that they can become GODS. That is far removed from Christianity.
And Mormons believe that God is from a planet called Kolob, and they wear magic underwear! Wacky stuff.
Mormonism is not Christianity, period.

 

[Paul_G]

All that you need to know about Mormonism is that its followers believe that they can become GODS.

Yes we all have the potential to become gods long after we have left this world.

That is far removed from Christianity.

Perhaps as you know it.

And Mormons believe that God is from a planet called Kolob,

Sorry, not very accurate for something you claim to know.

and they wear magic underwear!

I don’t know about the magic part, but so what.

Wacky stuff.

Wacky is in the eye of the beholder

Mormonism is not Christianity, period.

So what does it take to be a Christian?

Paul

 

[majick275]

No, that will not happen. This is the last dispensation before the Second Coming of Christ. It is “the dispensation of the fulness of times” in which God will “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). It is prophesied that it will not apostatize until God’s work in it completely accomplished, and the end time finally comes. It is “the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands” that destroyed all other kingdoms; and itself became “a great mountain, and filled the whole earth” (Daniel 2:31–45). Therefore it will not apostatize.

That is not to say that individuals and groups will not apostatize form it; but the church itself it has been prophesied that will not apostatize.

zerinus

now here is an excellent example of mormon proof texting. (you know where they give you the philosophies of men mingled with scripture) an OT quote is used in what SHOULD be a reference to CHRIST establishing church that will not fail but instead is twisted to give us the feeling that Joseph Smith had to fix what Christ left behind.

Read 2 Peter, particularly the second chapter and you will see what Joseph Smith really did to the world.

Mormon scriptures contradict themselves and the LDS prophets and apostles do the same. there is no clearly defined source of mormon doctrine. even the temple is left to the imagination of the participant with no opportunity to seek further light and knowledge of what it really means.

so here are the salient points:

LDS believe that the bible is so erroneous that you can’t trust anything in it unless it agrees with LDS teachings.

Despite what Jesus said, the church rejected his teachings and all priesthood leaders apostatized by the time the last apostle died.Everyone that these apostles received revelation to ordain chose to apostatize. God left the world in spiritual darkness until JS and then chose to “restore” the church in the USA. (even though John and the nephite 3 were still ministering throughout earth they apparently were doing so without valid authority)

The early church was NOT what our “erroneous” bible described but really included mormon temple ceremonies and required eternal marriage for exaltation. this requires Jesus to have been married (for the same reason he was baptized) in the temple.

All of us are literal offspring of Elohim who used to be a man like us who was the literal offspring of his God and so on and so on. this means that we can become Gods too and our spirit children after us in an endless line. it also means that we are married to our literal siblings and placed in a patriarchal order subordinate to our other siblings who were our parents on earth but now adopt us through “sealing” so that instead of being children of Elohim like we started we are now just children of our brothers and sisters all the way back to Adam who still gets to be Elohim’s son. (unless Brigham Young was right and as Gordon Hinkley stated that would mean Adam IS our God)

Mormonism also requires that all worthy women who are not sealed to a worthy man be “given” to a worthy man so that in the celestial kingdom he will have enough wives to populate worlds without end.

 

[majick275]

continued

While exalted men will be in charge of creating these worlds and instructing their inhabitants (or sending messengers to do it) these spiritual mothers will have no part in any of that and will not be allowed to communicate in way with their children.

despite the proclamation the only LDS families are forever (through this chain of sealings to their spirit siblings) they really believe that all worthy ones will be off ruling these worlds instead of being in the same place forever.

LDS prophets no longer claim to speak directly with God. the current one says they don’t need new revelation, they need to use what they already have.

the Catholic church on the other hand IS led by revelation. the perfect revelation that Jesus Christ gave us and through the Holy Spirit the church that Christ established teaches the world what those revelations mean and how to apply them.

The Catholic church still benefits from the service of the apostles that JESUS called who are still serving the church from heaven. we do not presume to usurp Christ’s role and call new ones. instead the original apostles did as Jesus directed them and called bishops and priests to lead the church. since Jesus spoke to us directly in person with a perfect message we no longer require prophets. since the Apostles called bishops and continue to serve God we don’t need new ones.

questions???

how about “why doesn’t the BOM with it’s alleged fullness of the gospel make reference to any of these unique LDS teachings?” (eternal marriage, eternal progression, temple endowments, etc.) it actually seems to echo the Christian trinitarian teachings since it says there is only one God and he is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith was a con man whose con worked better than he imagined. (he tried to sell the BoM because he never thought he would continue to grow in wealth in power) Brigham Young had the opportunity to be a dictator to a people trapped in a foreign land and thus perpetuate a culture based on this con.
The mormon religion is a tiny group of Americans and a handful of wannabe Americans who try to keep the bottom line of the pyramid growing in the hopes of rising to the top.

DON’T DRINK THE KOOLAID!