Seeking a Convalidation. HELP!

[Phemie]

This may be the most practical and relevant information anyone has provided the OP on this thread. Is the dispenation, when granted, really that broad?

The Catholic Church can’t impose its standards on other religions. If the Bishop grants the dispensation then the form of the wedding is out of our church’s hands. The only thing we can require is that the wedding be public and with the required witnesses.

It’s quite possible that some non-Catholic Churches would also refuse to celebrate an outdoor wedding, firmly believing that the sacrament they are celebrating is properly celebrated only in God’s House. Others would have no qualms about an outdoor setting for a wedding.

It’s funny, my priest asked me yesterday if we ever celebrated weddings outside. I told him that it was never done here but since the couple who was asking was a mixed-religion couple the bishop might suggest they be married in the bride’s church if that’s what they want.

I think the priest asked me because he’s a missionary and in his mission he’s married & baptized in many settings outside of the Church. Another missionary who works around here celebrates the Triduum in a tent out on the land with the people to whom he ministers. Baptisms would be celebrated at that time.

 

[VivienneJ]

mljaustin, isn’t it strange that a wedding day can cause so much stress?

While I am now Catholic, I spent most of my long life in 4 different Protestant denominations and had close contact with 3 others through family or close friends.

I hear what you are saying here:

BTW - Someone once gave me some wonderful piece of information (our Lord, our God) created earth. Therefore, getting married outdoors is in our “God’s cathedral” among everything he created. Not in some man made marble.

…but, a Protestant priest who I worked for explained it like this: marriage is part of the life of the church family and therefore should be take place where the church family regularly meets and worships.

But, truly, as you may have some sad/bad memories to do with your Mom’s death, talk to a priest. BTW how sad that you don’t have your Mom around for this special day.

Prayers for you as you try to find the best way for you and your fiance through this, in keeping with the traditions of both your church communities.

 

[Schluns]

MLJ,

I am truly sorry that some people here have put you and your fiance through the mill. Some of us are not as eloquent as we think (me included:blush: at times). We forget that what we would verbalize with a smile or a wink, or even a frown, those emotions are not carried over into type.

These are the reasons why emoticons were developed. and people forget that; And you are right some people here are just mean. They mean well. But I think that this subject is something that would have been better handled with a [SIGN]Welcome[/SIGN] and a :grouphug: but instead what this poor girl got was :hammering: & a :slapfight:

I for one am very embarrassed by some of you myself.

If I had visited this site last year I would have been put off by the Catholic Church, as you would have backed all the brainwashing I had grown up with about Catholicism. Shame on you. (and you should know who you are)

I think that that is enough emoticons for one post.

---

Now knowing that your fiance attends church only occasionally with his family and does not have a home parish, makes things only slightly different.

Please encourage him to seek dispensation by his local bishop as recommended by others on this thread.

 

[rolltidefan]

Thank you Thomas for you explaining that clear. I know the non-denominational churches that I have friends and family at, do baptize in Trinitarian form. I am a member of the Church of God and I know this is how we do it. I have an uncle though that attended an Apostolic Pentecostal Church and I know their church baptized in Jesus name only. However, I would not judge him by this and state that he was not baptized and not a Christian, as that is not my job. Anyway, thanks again. You put things much easier to understand and in such a nicer TONE! lol

 

[Phemie]

Thank you Thomas for you explaining that clear. I know the non-denominational churches that I have friends and family at, do baptize in Trinitarian form. I am a member of the Church of God and I know this is how we do it. I have an uncle though that attended an Apostolic Pentecostal Church and I know their church baptized in Jesus name only. However, I would not judge him by this and state that he was not baptized and not a Christian, as that is not my job. Anyway, thanks again. You put things much easier to understand and in such a nicer TONE! lol

 

[Eblessed46]

From this point forward please only respond to the question. I have very PERSONAL reasons for the outdoor ceremony that have nothing to do with pictures.

I am not looking for scripture just an answer.

 

[Eblessed46]

One way this can be done is to have a simple ceremony first in the church, by a priest or deacon and then have a ceremony outside with your friends and family. This was the option given to my daughter who wanted a beach wedding and was marrying a non-Catholic.

 

[YADA]

Thanks so much for the two previous responses for being so warm about this. Some of y’all are just plain mean.

I hadn’t thought about the vows in the church before then going outside. Something to consider, though I think the fundamental issue he has is still there.

I wish to have a ceremony outdoors. Performed by my Pastor.

He does not attend regularaly. In fact, we have attended only 4 times in the past year on important holidays. I go with him and his family (no i don’t take communion)

mljaustin,’

I have read through the entire thread. And please I am not a mean person, just sking questions and making observations.

I guess I am wondering why your fiancee even cares what the church teaches about marriage? You have said he is considering leaving the church but in reality he has already left. You say he attends mass only on holidays, which in reality makes your fiancee a 'cultural" catholic at best …one who is marginally catholic due to family history/tradition but not one of true belief and faith … [as others have noted, catholics have an obligation to attend Mass weekly and on Holy days of Obligation] … individuals like your fiance are CEO’s - Christmas Easter and Obituary catholics…

Make no mistake, we want him to return to the faith, actively living out the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, being the Hands, Heart and Love of Christ in the world, nurtured by the True Body and Blood of our Lord each an devery Sunday, making the world a better and more loving land … but in truth your fiance has left the church and the Sacramental Life found in the Chruch community …

I will accept your “personal” reasons for an outdoor wedding performed by yoru minister … I can’t argue wanting to be married by your own clergy … Why does your fiancee want to bring in a non existant relationship to a Church and a faith he fails to adhear to ? - In my mind, that is the real issue you both need to address … why does he want the blessing of the chruch he has left? Is it becuase of family pressure? His Mother/Father? …

In which faith would you raise your children?

Do you attend your church each week? Does he attend with you? What is the role faith plays in your you and your fiancee’s] day to day, week in week out life in the here and now?

How do you feel about artificial birth control? Will your fiance make every effort to raise his children in the faith? Are you going to make every effort to raise your children in your faith? How will you reconcile this if both of you are at odds? If you are not at odds what does that say about your individual faith commitment? Without that committment, what matters the ceremony of one day? … and the questions go on …

 

[Seatuck]

Since it’s been brought up more than once Catholics are not permitted to have two ceremonies.

In order to preserve the unity of the sacrament of marriage, the Church does not allow separate vows to be made before both a priest and a non-Catholic minister, either in separate ceremonies or within the same ceremony (no. 156). The solemn vows creating the sacrament of marriage are exchanged once. The divisions that regrettably exist between Christian communities do not affect the unity of a marriage between two baptized Christians. Rather than splitting up families of differing confessions further, a mixed marriage should be an occasion when all Christians can come together despite their divisions, according to the Lord’s prayer “that they may all be one” (Jn. 17:21).

cuf.org/FaithFacts/details_view.asp?ffID=221

In some cases the couple might do renewal of vows but they are supposed to make it clear that the sacrament has already taken place.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

One way this can be done is to have a simple ceremony first in the church, by a priest or deacon and then have a ceremony outside with your friends and family. This was the option given to my daughter who wanted a beach wedding and was marrying a non-Catholic.

Actually, Catholics are supposed to have only ONE ceremony. It is perfectly OK to have a beach wedding once the dispensation has been turned over to the non-Catholic’s ecclesial community. It is not OK to have two ceremonies, with two exchanges of vows…

§3. It is forbidden to have another religious celebration of the same marriage to give or renew matrimonial consent before or after the canonical celebration according to the norm of §1. Likewise, there is not to be a religious celebration in which the Catholic who is assisting and a non-Catholic minister together, using their own rites, ask for the consent of the parties.

And I have to say, on another note, I agree with YADA. I just didn’t want to say anything because, well, the OP is really trying so hard to do this right. But why does this fiance (male person) want to do this in the Church when he says he doesn’t like Her (the Catholic Church with a capital C), has troubles with Her, and doesn’t practice?

 

[YADA]

…And I have to say, on another note, I agree with YADA. I just didn’t want to say anything because, well, the OP is really trying so hard to do this right. But why does this fiance (male person) want to do this in the Church when he says he doesn’t like Her (the Catholic Church with a capital C), has troubles with Her, and doesn’t practice?

Thank you OutinChgoburbs, I have been thinking of you and your sweet family!

I agree that the OP seems to want to the right thing … except the right thing would be for her fiance to face the reality of the state of his faith, what he believes and what he does not believe … Also, if they [her and her fiance] cannot honestly face the reality … [identifying him as a good catholic but he does not practice his faith or adhere to its tenets…and his willingness to abandon his faith so easily … ] then they will not be able to realistically confront the troubles and moral issues that will confront every married couple. If he can so easily abandon his faith can he just as easily abandon a wife or family that disappoints or is not convenient?

It is easy to self identify with a group - especially if one does not have to really adhere to any of the groups tenets … kind of like two people co-habitating … they can self identify themselves as being married … you know the “piece of paper does not make the marriage” arguement … all the perks with none of the responsibilities … Or self identiying as a US Marine without the enlistment and Boot Camp … easy …

Why does he desire a Catholic wedding but devoid of everything “catholic” about it? I believe that this is far more important then finding a way to make the outdoor wedding meet legalized “catholic” citeria and be ergo “Sacramental” …

Because if the young man does not intend to “be” Catholic - active practicing … attending mass, receiving the Eucharist, going to confession, raising his children in the faith … etc … then the dispensation for the outdoor ceremony performed by the Protestant Minister will really mean little IMHO …

Of course I could be wrong - AND I hope I am - but I fear I am not …

 

[Thomas63116]

In response to the last couple of posts. . .

I think we have to realize that many, many Catholics entering into marriage are far from perfect in their understanding or practice of their faith. (Indeed if we demanded perfection, the church would be near empty). This is true whether it’s a mixed marriage or both people are Catholic. But this doesn’t always mean that the couple’s faith isn’t important to them.

Indeed, we tend to accept that their desire to marry within the church is a recognition of their relationship with God and an expression of their desire to have that relationship grow and be part of their married life. We also hope and pray that the grace they receive through the sacrament will help that to be the case.

How many of us know couples who did not attend church regularly, until their children came along and they wanted to pass the faith along? This is not uncommon. Just like people go through cycles in other relationships in life, where they feel close at one time and more distant at another, a lot of people go through cycles in their relationship with God and the Church. A wedding should be an occassion to draw closer with all of those we care about, even if there have been differences or misunderstandings in the past. This is true for our family, our friends, and our Church.

So, please. . .cut everyone just a little bit of slack. Don’t pressume that you know their heart or their motivations. And pray that the grace that is prompting them to seek the church’s blessing for their marriage will be nurtured and continue to grow.

AMDG

 

[rolltidefan]

Thomas63116…I don’t think there is a single person on these threads that speak the truth in love the way you do. I think you should be moderating and responding to all of these threads!!! lol You give such great, respectful, wonderful, Christl like answers to everyone here. I just felt like I needed to tell you how much I appreciate that.

 

[Thomas63116]

Thank you rolltidefan, that’s very kind. I try to chime in where I think I can help.

 

[YADA]

AMDG,

I am not judging the heart of this person … only asking that they confront this question …

good ‘catholic’ marriage preparation [as does baptism preparation] asks the hard questoins … why do you desire the sacrament? …

That this person wants a ‘catholic’ wedding but not [in reality]… and whose fiancee shares that they intend to abandon a faith [which they marginally practice currently] if their demands are not met … begs the question "Why seek out a sacramental wedding? …

The sacraments are not “magic” … they are not to be used because “My mother wants me to have a church wedding” …

Yes, people often get married in the Church with no intention of living as “catholics” … they get their children babptised with no intent to raise their children in the faith but only to appease a grandparent … yes they sometimes come back to the church [Thanks be to God!] … but often times they do not … but good catechesis demands that the tough questions be asked and the Truth be spoken - and yes, with all due love and charity - with great care … but we do not dumb down the faith …

If you thought my post was uncharitable, please I meant no disrespect. Consider it “tough love” … but love all the same … …

PS: some of my greatest spiritual growth has occurred when I have been challenged in just this way … when I have been called to give an account … called to take responsibility for my actions and positions …

 

[rolltidefan]

AMDG,

I am not judging the heart of this person … only asking that they confront this question …

good ‘catholic’ marriage preparation [as does baptism preparation] asks the hard questoins … why do you desire the sacrament? …

That this person wants a ‘catholic’ wedding but not [in reality]… and whose fiancee shares that they intend to abandon a faith [which they marginally practice currently] if their demands are not met … begs the question "Why seek out a sacramental wedding? …

The sacraments are not “magic” … they are not to be used because “My mother wants me to have a church wedding” …

Yes, people often get married in the Church with no intention of living as “catholics” … they get their children babptised with no intent to raise their children in the faith but only to appease a grandparent … yes they sometimes come back to the church [Thanks be to God!] … but often times they do not … but good catechesis demands that the tough questions be asked and the Truth be spoken - and yes, with all due love and charity - with great care … but we do not dumb down the faith …

If you thought my post was uncharitable, please I meant no disrespect. Consider it “tough love” … but love all the same … …

PS: some of my greatest spiritual growth has occurred when I have been challenged in just this way … when I have been called to give an account … called to take responsibility for my actions and positions …

Yada…I think your answers have been very good. I don’t think you have “stepped on any toes” at all. You are just speaking what you know for yourself as the truth and there is nothing wrong with that. I was just speaking to Thomas, because I have noticed that he always seems to have a wonderful spirit about him in posting on these threads. I don’t think I have seen you post very much, so don’t know that much about you and previous post. I just want everyone to maintain a proper respect for everyone involved. Both the Catholics and the Protestants. I think if we could all learn to at least respect, no that does not mean agree, but have a respect, we would get a lot further. No, probably not agreeing, but you don’t have to agree with everything everybody says to have a love for them as humans. Anyway, I have found no fault with your posts whatsoever. God Bless You

 

[Thomas63116]

YADA:

The questions you raise are valid and important for the OP and her fiance to consider. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect this couple to have a level of perfection in their understanding or practice of the faith that even a lot of couples who are both Catholic do not have. The sacraments are not “magical”, but we do believe they actually confer grace and are not just symbolic. To me at least, the fact that they want to do this right suggests that the faith is important to them and that they want to continue to grow in that faith.