Seeking Opinions - Modesty of Dress

[Newhills]

Hello. This is my first post. I have read the forums for a few years but never made the jump to join.

Asking for some opinions.

My young son is in first grade at a Catholic school. My wife, son & I are Catholic and teaching him the faith forms a big part of our home life.

When we dropped him off this morning his new teacher was wearing what we considered to be an inappropriate outfit, particularly when she is in front of young children. It was a skin tight, flesh coloured dress that was cut too low at the front and too low at the bottom.

Apart from the expected professional standard in the workplace, I expect a catholic school to be better role models of modesty in actions as well as appearance.

I have reviewed the Catechism today and re read sections on modesty. To me it seems very clear that this outfit is not displaying modesty.

It also seems clear that the school holds a responsibility to demonstrate catholic values and live up to church teaching.

To paraphrase section 2524 - “Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person”.

I have made an appointment to speak with the principal.

Normally I would take my issue directly to the person (in this case the teacher) as I do not fear confrontation and can normally have conversations with people without it turning to confrontation however I am not sure that a man raising this with a woman directly is the best approach.

The outfit is not a one off. I’ve seen the same teacher at school and noticed her inappropriate outfits before. However now that she is teaching my son I don’t feel that I should sit back and do nothing.

My questions are - do you think that it is reasonable for me to raise this with the principal and also does anybody have any suggestions for the best way to approach the discussion?

Thank you.

 

[Agnus-Dei]

To borrow a phrase, “It is right and just.” Telling her directly could bring the focus towards you. These things have a great way of back-firing on a man. It can very easily slip into a “Why are you looking?” Or “He said this to me.” Then, you have a bigger problem. Meeting with the principal would be the way I’d go. Saves any embarrassment on her part, and you don’t have to say anything. The principal can be asked to keep things confidential so your name is not even brought up. His(?) opinion and direction is the one that can effect change. Talk to the boss, and see if her outfits change.
Dominus vobiscum

 

[FiveLinden]

I am not a Catholic so have no views on what Catholic modesty is. But your reaction seems to me to be very intense, humanly speaking. Before raising anything with the school have you considered reflecting on the nature of your response and whether it is reasonable? I know from experience that parents of young children have an instinctive fear for them around strange adults and that variations away from what parents see as the norm can lead to responses that are more emotionally charged than usual. I think it is also useful to reflect on proportionality. Do you know the impact your criticism will have on the teacher when it is conveyed? Do you take responsibility for that?

 

[Agnus-Dei]

If the school is teaching children based on the faith, and a teacher is not being modest in dress, this violates the teaching. Many will question the person pointing this out as if it is their issue. The burden of responsibility here is solely on the persons’ choice of clothing. The second part is for those in authority to insure expectations are met for the reputation of the school, and the children being taught.
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Agnus-Dei]

P.S. welcome to the forum Newhills
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Newhills]

Thank you to you both. I appreciate the opinions.

To answer - yes, I have considered whether I am acting in an emotionally charged manner. I am also very mindful of how my actions impact on other people.

I agree that it is up to the principal to raise it without offending the teacher and the also the school’s responsibility to uphold catholic morals outweigh this.

But when it comes to children (especially our own) I think the child’s spiritual needs outweigh the potential hurt feelings or embarrassment of a grown adult. To quote the Gospel of Matthew “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”

 

[Agnus-Dei]

That is why I would talk to the boss first. No need to talk to her at all. You wouldn’t be putting her on the defensive about fashion choices either. It is the boss’s job to correct things. This keeps you “out of the splash zone.”
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Camehome4john6]

Could you phrase the question to the administrator more like
“Is there a dress code for the teachers? I’ve noticed that at times attire seems to be less than appropriate for the example that should be set by a Catholic school.”
And refuse to name names.
Maybe then the issue of appropriate dress could be addressed rather than a teacher being embarrassed.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My questions are - do you think that it is reasonable for me to raise this with the principal

Not sure why you’re asking us. We don’t have a child at the school or in this teacher’s class, we didn’t see the outfit, and even if we did then we might not think it was as immodest as you do. Plus, you already made the appointment to speak with the principal. So how does my or anyone else’s opinion play into this?

and also does anybody have any suggestions for the best way to approach the discussion?

I’d presume you’d simply tell the principal everything you put in your first post.
It’s nothing new for parents to be concerned about teachers’ dress or behavior, so the principal may have even heard it before.
I don’t see why you have to beat around the bush or couch it in some kind of veiled language, especially when you post it very directly to strangers on the Internet.

 

[Newhills]

I’m “asking us” because it’s a public forum and opinions & conversation are kind of the entire point.

But thank you for the response.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, if you truly want my opinion, I think there are bigger fish to fry in the world than this whole issue and I wouldn’t even be bothered about it. I’d be more interested in whether the lady is a competent teacher, especially when she is teaching a primary grade so it’s not an issue of her outfits possibly being a distraction or bad role model for young people past puberty. Your young son is highly unlikely to even notice what she has on, and he will only be in her class for a year.

I also think if the teacher has been dressing this way right along, it’s unlikely to change just because your son is now in her class and you decided to complain.

 

[Newhills]

Thank you for sharing your opinion

 

[1ke]

i might inquire on the staff dress code as another suggested, before pointing out a specific teacher. Also, I’d find out what my wife thought of the teacher’s way of dressing (if I were a man, which I’m not).

Most teachers and aides I know at the elementary level wear practical clothing that they can move, bend, etc., in because they are often getting down to the kids’ levels for activities, have recess/playground duty, have to be on their feet all day, etc. Comfy shoes, pants, things with pockets, loose and movable fabrics.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

i might inquire on the staff dress code as another suggested, before pointing out a specific teacher. Also, I’d find out what my wife thought of the teacher’s way of dressing (if I were a man, which I’m not).

I agree.

It has to be said, but sometimes women with what society might call a ‘voluptuous figure’ are often accused of immodest dress even when dressed appropriately. Clothing just sits differently on certain figures. I’d hate to call out anyone in particular when their dress may well be appropriate.

Inquire about a dress code for teachers without making accusations.

 

[Jessie]

If the dress is too short (above the knee?) stood up, I dread to think what the kids are seeing if she is getting down on the floor!

They must have a dress code. At our school we weren’t allowed to wear skirts more than one hand width above the knee, not have low cut tops (no cleavage) and no sleeveless tops. In the summer load of teachers just ignored the dress code and I hated constantly having to avert my eyes! I actually wished parents would have complained, then maybe the management would have actually dealt with it.

 

[fide]

@ Newhills – “My questions are - do you think that it is reasonable for me to raise this with the principal and also does anybody have any suggestions for the best way to approach the discussion?”

I’m happy to hear of your concern, and your willingness to address it and hopefully to help direct a Catholic school toward a more Catholic formation in Catholic Faith - for both the students and the teachers. I would definitely want to have my wife with me, in a talk with the principal - and she would certainly be wiling to share her concerns as well, which would be in agreement with mine.

 

[Lara]

You will not win this one. The principal might give a memo to the staff in general but will not single out this particular woman and she will not likely change her ways. Also, she may not have a lot of clothes to begin with. She might have worn that dress because it was laundry day, and she had nothing else.

Plus, when a woman wears something too revealing, she likely believes it’s up to men to avert their eyes (if she gives even a passing thought to men, which is unlikely.)

 

[Patri]

That is what I think too. It feels like looking the other way has become the norm. I would ask the principal about the dress code too and take the conversation from there. But do not feel bad for being a Catholic concerned parent. As a teenager my father sent me back to change when I wore something not appropriate, I wore it because I felt it made me look attractive, but my father knew that I should not be getting that kind of attention. This teacher might not know she is not being modest, if she can be told in a tactful way, I think it will do more good than harm, not every man discreetly looks away.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

The whole “modesty in dress” topic comes up every couple of weeks or so here on CAF. It never ends well and there is never any real resolution. Here is the most recent thread:

The Modesty Question Moral Theology

Hey guys, I just read an article about the Marylike Standards of Modesty and I’m a little worried. I thought myself to be a modest person, but after reading that, I feel like one of the most immodest people in the world. The Standards called for ankle-length skirts, High necklines no more than 2 fingers down from the throat, sleeves to the wrist or at least the elbow, and no form fitting attire. It also talked about how leggings (which I practically live in for work) and jeans were inappropriat…

And I don’t know if there are any specific rules about reposting one’s verbiage from past threads — if there are, I’m sure I’ll hear about it — but here is what I said on that thread. I humbly submit that it pretty well covers the issue:

Simply put, there seem to be three schools of thought in Catholic circles about modesty (and it is usually a one-way topic, i.e., men dressing immodestly doesn’t seem to cause the same “problems” for women, as the other way around):

Some seek adherence to earlier standards of modesty (first third to first half of the 20th century), which basically mandated dresses only (no bifurcated garments), neck-to-knees (and perhaps even longer than that), sleeves to or near the elbows (and, again, perhaps even longer), nothing sheer or tight enough to reveal anything. These are the “Marylike standards of modesty” you will hear of so often. They basically flash-freeze all modesty standards circa 1940, as they would have been on Main Street versus Hollywood.

Others, while upholding the principle of modesty, make greater concessions to modern fashions, but err on the conservative side of these fashions. Lower necklines, shorter dress hemlines, short sleeves or even sleeveless garments, revealing portions of the back and decollette, and trousers of various types are tolerated, as are reasonably modest shorts and, at the beach or pool, both one- and two-piece swimsuits.

Others basically adopt the fashions of the larger secular society, sometimes embracing very tight or revealing dress in the name of being “cute”, “fashionable”, even “hot” or “sexy”, and are scornful of any mention of this being problematical for men who wish to preserve custody of the eyes. They will respond that “we want to look pretty” and “if guys lust after us, that’s their problem, not ours — they’ve just got dirty minds and they’re libidinous” (actually, they would use a stronger word than “libidinous”, but that would go beyond the “PG” standards we seek to adhere to on CAF). In other words, they wear whatever they want, and there is no such thing as modesty standards. Many of these women — not all, but many — though, know that what they wear enchants and distracts men, and they like it that way — it gives them a certain power. That may not be the primary reason they dress that way, but they are pleased to have that effect on men, as a side-effect of “looking pretty”.

 

[blackforest]

There’s a fourth category for those of us who strongly support custody of the eyes over fashion-policing.

I’m certainly OK with a dress code, so long as it’s made clear to employees, and so long as employees agree to it and consistently uphold it. Parents at the OP’s school are well within their rights to clarify what that dress code is among faculty.

But overall, the CAF obsession with how women dress is unhealthy, and those modesty threads drive me crazy. My daughter is reading The Screwtape Letters, by C.S. Lewis. For those who haven’t read it, a demon named Screwtape is mentoring and writing letters to his demon-in-training nephew, Wormwood. In Chapter 2 of the book, Screwtape is distressed that Wormwood’s assigned human, i.e. “patient,” has become a Christian. But not to worry, Screwtape assures him. Once he starts going to church, Wormwood can make it as petty and banal as possible.

CAF modesty threads came immediately to mind.

Make his mind flit to and fro between an expression like “the body of Christ” and the actual faces in the next pew. It matters very little, of course, what kind of people that next pew really contains. You may know one of them to be a great warrior on the Enemy’s side. No matter. Your patient, thanks to Our Father below, is a fool. Provided that any of those neighbours sing out of tune, or have boots that squeak, or double chins, or odd clothes, the patient will quite easily believe that their religion must therefore be somehow ridiculous.