Selection of Israel critic for US delegation to human rights forum raises concern

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Ghosty said:
Territorial disputes are a different matter. I asked a pretty specific question. The few cases that come close, such as China and Tibet, do get protests and statements all the time. The difference is that China isn’t a major U.S. ally so the dissent over it doesn’t capture the imagination of the media. I see a lot more “Free Tibet” bumper stickers than “Free Palestine” ones, however.
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How about Britain/the Falklands? I’m pretty sure international law back the Argentinians.
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Ghosty:
As for claims that Palestine was never a country, that’s immaterial. There was never a country called Maya, or Sioux, or Aborigine either, but those are real people with real ancestral lands. Furthermore, the Palestinians are indeed the indigenous people of the land, and this has been shown time and time again by historical and genetic studies. They were the Jews who became Christian, and later Muslim, and stuck around the Holy Land. The Christian Palestinians are much more comfortable admitting this fact than the Muslim ones, but the genes don’t lie.

Peace and God bless!
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I’ve never made the claim to point out that they don’t deserve their own nation, just to point out that their national identity is largely a reaction to a non-Muslim state in their midst. Prior to 1967, they were just “Arab”.

I realize they are people who are indigenous to the region, as are Jews. I pray they both can have their own nations and live in peace.
 
Now, can we get back to why a weird, anti-Semitic, 9/11 truther would be appointed to represent the US at a human rights commission?
 
Ghosty said:
You mean like the venerable Hebrew names Goldman, Deutsch, Wiener, and Franco? Names are not genes, they are easily changed with borders and intermarriage. The fact that Palestinian DNA falls within the spectrum between Ashkenazim and Yemeni Jews is all we really need to know.

Peace and God bless!
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We came from here and were dragged out against our will. Now we’re home again- as per YOUR Bible. They came from elsewhere and settled here.

As to DNA, not true- although it doesn’t really matter. Hitler would have said that it does, but we don’t use DNA to determine who is a Jew. That could have excluded King David himself- and the messiah.

And to quote from YOUR Bible (it isn’t part of the Jewish Bible):

1 Maccabees Chapter 15

[33] We have neither taken foreign land nor seized foreign property, but only the inheritance of our fathers, which at one time had been unjustly taken by our enemies.

[34] Now that we have the opportunity, we are firmly holding the inheritance of our fathers.
 
scipio337 said:
How about Britain/the Falklands? I’m pretty sure international law back the Argentinians.
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I’m not aware of any support in the Falklands for Argentinian rule, so your comparison doesn’t hold. If anything the Argentinians are mmore akin to China visa vis Taiwan.
I’ve never made the claim to point out that they don’t deserve their own nation, just to point out that their national identity is largely a reaction to a non-Muslim state in their midst. Prior to 1967, they were just “Arab”.
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I realize they are people who are indigenous to the region, as are Jews. I pray they both can have their own nations and live in peace.
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Arab is a linguistic identifier, not a national one, and not even a cultural one. There were efforts at a pan-Arab identity in recent decades, but it’s never amounted to a true ethnic categorization; it hasn’t even succeeded as a political rallying point. “Arabs” from Palestine are not interchangable with “Arabs” from Syria, Iraq, Egypt, or Saudi Arabia. Palestinian leaders have tried to foster Pan-Arab identity in order to get some backing, but by and large it hasn’t succeeded.

I’m part of the Arab community, I know how divisive it actually is. Other “Arabs” chortle at the Palestinians and call them “rock-tossers”; if there was really a Pan-Arab identity then that man from Hamas in the above video wouldn’t have to labor so heatedly to get Palestinians aide and recognition from other “Arabs”. The Palestinian people are just a an excuse for the ambitions of surrounding “Arab” nations, and always have been. They, like countless others in the very heterogenous Middle East find themselves caught in a clash of larger powers, and they do what they can to assert some identity that will allow them to keep their homeland. In the Middle East, identity is often about political expediency and survival, and has been for centuries. Who was it that said “we have now king but Caesar”? Not much has changed since then.

Peace and God bless!
 
I’ve read the articles, but I’m not seeing it. What has he done or said that is anti-Semitic?

Peace and God bless!
 
scipio337 said:
You do kmow he wanted Israel added to the 9/11 suspect list, right?
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Sure, and with good reason. 5 members of the Mossad were detained on 9/11 as suspected conspirators in the attacks. You should remember them; the 5 Israelis that video taped the attacks from Liberty Park and were jumping with joy as it occurred. The investigation was classified by the Bush Administration but after they were deported back to Israel they appeared on an Israeli news show stating that they had been sent in advance to “document the event.” Not long after that the United States uncovered the largest spy ring ever discovered operating in the US; 120 Mossad agents dived into teams of six, posing as art students, and coordinated by the Israeli government. Some of them were tracking Mohammad Atta and Marwan al-Shehi. In fact, one of the Mossad teams was living right next door to Mohammad Atta in Florida and was tasked with shadowing him. Even Fox News reported on this.
 
Fellow Catholics, I don’t want to see ourselves be led astray as have many protestants in regards to Israel. Many protestants today have forfeited the claim the Church has on the new Israel, they have bestowed this upon the modern political state of Israel. Being entitled to the land given to Abraham and his descendants by God is not a claim based on race, but a claim based on faith. The promises made to Abraham apply to his descendants that keep the covenant! Not merely being his genetic offspring, how many times in scripture is this notion of inheritance based on race decried? “And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.” - Matthew 3:9

And consistently throughout the OT, those who do not keep circumcision and the law are no longer considered to be part of God’s people, they are cut off and they forfeit the reception of the promises made to Abraham. Why is this relevant? This is relevant because modern rabbinical Judaism is incapable of keeping the covenant, there is no temple, no priesthood, no sacrifice. There is no legitimate claim to the land if the covenant is not kept, and cannot be kept.

With this in mind, the modern state of Israel has no religious claim to the holy land, this is not the Israel of the Old Testament. If one is to support Israel for political, non religious reasons, then so be it. But for us Catholics, the Church is clear that the new Israel is the Church, with Christ as our king and high priest, and membership expanded not just to the genetic descendants of one man, but to all. Israel has been expanded and transformed by Christ so those who are not children of Abraham according to the flesh are children of Abraham by faith:

6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. - Galatians 3:6-9

I beg you not to forfeit the claim the body of Christ, the Church has as the new Israel as many protestants have done whilst clinging to dispensationalist theologies, strange ideas like the rapture, millennialism, the endless end times predictions, and so forth. The Church has consistently been opposed to connecting the modern state of Israel born out of the zionist movement with Biblical Israel, connecting these two is something that is distinctly protestant. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have been the only bulwarks against this protestant notion.
 
I beg you not to forfeit the claim the body of Christ, the Church has as the new Israel as many protestants have done whilst clinging to dispensationalist theologies, strange ideas like the rapture, millennialism, the endless end times predictions, and so forth. The Church has consistently been opposed to connecting the modern state of Israel born out of the zionist movement with Biblical Israel, connecting these two is something that is distinctly protestant. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have been the only bulwarks against this protestant notion.
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Thank you, thank you!

FINALLY!

I am soooo sick and tired of hearing about Christians talking about the “end times”, especially on nice, even calendar years when they end with three zeros or a 500.

And this idea of blindly rushing to Israel’s side every time a Palestinian throws a rock?

It’s absurd and naive!

God has not always protected Israel! When they left God for a certain time, He let Israel’s enemies walk over them!

We need to adhere to the Just War Criteria and common sense, and you won’t find much of that from the religious zealots on either side of the conflict.
 
Protestant (???)- S*chmotestant. :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:* End Times? Do ya think? Did not Our Lord , ahem, I reiterate: Our Lord say to St. Faustina:

“**You have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming **of Him who will come, not as a merciful Savior, but as a just Judge. Oh how terrible is that day! Determined is the day of justice, the day of divine wrath. The angels tremble before it. Speak to souls about this great mercy while it is still the time for granting mercy. (Diary 635).”

And:

"You will prepare the world for My final coming. (Diary 429)"

And:

**"****Speak to the world about My mercy … It is a sign for the end times. After it will come the Day of Justice. While there is still time, let them have recourse to the fountain of My mercy. (Diary 848) **

Read more: ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/coming.htm#ixzz29hXMpyl6

Look. Israel is now a nation again after almost 2,000 years. (Did I just say 2,000 years? I did!! I did!!) It is just **that **simple.:cool:

I suggest we all wake up and smell the :coffee:

Who woulda thunk it? What kinda odds woulda Vegas have placed on* that* one? This is far more than uuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhh…coincidence to me. It is just that simple.

Sorry guys… My …uhhhh…common sense tells me God is** not** done with Israel or the Jews.

I just do not get it why some people are not getting it …Sweet Rosy O’grady…
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
Fine, then let God take care of Israel. Just means we don’t need to. 😉
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G-d is taking care of us. Or haven’t you noticed?

And I’ll bet you didn’t know that US aid to Israel is only 1% of our GDP-and most of that goes towards US equipment, which supports America.
 
emperornapoleon said:
sure, and with good reason. 5 members of the mossad were detained on 9/11 as suspected conspirators in the attacks. You should remember them; the 5 israelis that video taped the attacks from liberty park and were jumping with joy as it occurred. The investigation was classified by the bush administration but after they were deported back to israel they appeared on an israeli news show stating that they had been sent in advance to “document the event.” not long after that the united states uncovered the largest spy ring ever discovered operating in the us; 120 mossad agents dived into teams of six, posing as art students, and coordinated by the israeli government. Some of them were tracking mohammad atta and marwan al-shehi. In fact, one of the mossad teams was living right next door to mohammad atta in florida and was tasked with shadowing him. Even fox news reported on this.
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9/11 truther garbage
 
YKohen said:
We came from here and were dragged out against our will. Now we’re home again- as per YOUR Bible. They came from elsewhere and settled here.
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Not true on either count. Jews were living around the Mediterranean since before Christianity and the destruction of Jerusalem. The Palestinian people are descended from the Jews of the Levant, in addition to other populations that have intermarried since then.
As to DNA, not true- although it doesn’t really matter. Hitler would have said that it does, but we don’t use DNA to determine who is a Jew. That could have excluded King David himself- and the messiah.
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I don’t know what your link to Wikipedia is intended to prove. Yemeni Jews have a higher proportion of sub-Saharan African genes than other Semitic groups?

As for DNA determining who is Jewish, if Jewish claims on the land called Israel mean anything then it is by biological descent, not religion. If it is religion then the Catholics and Orthodox have as much claim to Israel as the modern Jews do. If it is by biology then the Palestinians have as much claim to that land as modern Jews. The point is that the Palestinian population is directly descended from the old Kingdom of Israel, no ifs, ands, or buts.

But as for King David not being genetically Jewish? Only if the tribe of Judah wasn’t Jewish. And you speak of the messiah, but you claim to be Jewish. Which messiah are you talking about, exactly?
And to quote from YOUR Bible (it isn’t part of the Jewish Bible):
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1 Maccabees Chapter 15
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[33] We have neither taken foreign land nor seized foreign property, but only the inheritance of our fathers, which at one time had been unjustly taken by our enemies.
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[34] Now that we have the opportunity, we are firmly holding the inheritance of our fathers.
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Yes, and if the Maccabees made their reconquest today you’d actually have a point. That’s a historical document, however, and at the time of the reconquest they were casting out foreign Greek rule. It can’t be compared to the displacement of Palestinians from their ancestral homeland.

Furthermore, your use of Maccabees and your reference to it as not part of “the Jewish Bible” are quite odd; the Jews I know don’t refer to their scripture as “the Jewish Bible”, and they also know that Maccabees, while not part of Scripture, is part of the Jewish historical record, hence the celebration of Hannukah.

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty said:
Not true on either count. Jews were living around the Mediterranean since before Christianity and the destruction of Jerusalem. The Palestinian people are descended from the Jews of the Levant, in addition to other populations that have intermarried since then.
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There were Jews living elsewhere, but the bulk were here until we were exiled.

As to the would have been “Palestinians”, first of all, you already heard what they themselves said. Are they lying?

And we already established that such last names as al-Masri (the Egyptian,), al-Djazair (the Algerian), el-Mughrabi (the Moroccan), al-Yamani (the Yemenite) and even al-Afghani are so common among those claiming to be “Palestinians.”

And we also know that there were only some 6000 Muslims total living in Jerusalem in the 1840s (there were more Jews).

And we also know that even Yasser Arafat was Egyptian.

**There are villages populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire in the 19th century. There are villages of Bosnians, Circassians, and Egyptians. **
-Parkes, James William, History of the Peoples of Palestine, Hammondsworth, Great Britain, 1970, p. 212.

**There are very large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece, and Italy, Turkomen settlers, a fairly large Afghan colony, Motawila, immigrants from Persia, tribes of Kurds, a Bosnian colony, Circassian settlements, a large Algerian element, Sudanese… **
-Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1911 ed.

[Ibrahim Pasha, the 1831 Egyptian conquerer of Palestine] "left behind him permanent colonies of Egyptians at Besian, Nablus, Irbid, Acre, and Jaffa. Into Jaffa alone, "at least 2,000 people have been imported."
-Ernst Frankenstein, Justice For My People, London, Nicholson and Watson, 1943, p. 127.

In 1860, entire Algerian tribes immigrated en masse to Safed. The Muslims of Safed, are "mostly descended from these Moorish settlers and from Kurds that came earlier to the city."
-De Haas, Jacob, History of Palestine, The Last Two Thousand Years, New York, 1934, p. 425.

**“I learn of the arrival of about 6,000 of the Beni Sukhr Arabs at Tiberias who are very seldom seen this side of the Jordan.” **
-British Consul James Finn in apers Relating to the Distubances in Syria, no. 2, June 1860, p. 35.

**After 1870, “the [Turkish] forward policy included…the planting of Circassian colonies in the country.” **
-Smith, CG in Studies on Palestine During the Ottoman Period, Jerusalem, 1975, p. 93.

"The Arabs would have sat in the dark forever had not the Zionist engineers harnessed the Jordan river for electrification. Now they swarm into Palestine in seeking the light."
  • Winston Churchill, 1922 “A Peace to End All Peace”
**“This illegal [Arab] immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery.” **
-Palestine Royal Commission Report, London: 1937

"So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied until their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."
-Winston Churchill, 1939.
 
Ghosty said:
I don’t know what your link to Wikipedia is intended to prove. Yemeni Jews have a higher proportion of sub-Saharan African genes than other Semitic groups?
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You clearly missed the first sentence:

DNA testing between Yemenite Jews and various other of the world’s Jewish communities shows a common link, with most communities sharing similar paternal genetic profiles.

Yemenite Jews are closer to Ashkenazi Jews; not as you claim to “Palestinians”.
As for DNA determining who is Jewish, if Jewish claims on the land called Israel mean anything then it is by biological descent, not religion. If it is religion then the Catholics and Orthodox have as much claim to Israel as the modern Jews do. If it is by biology then the Palestinians have as much claim to that land as modern Jews. The point is that the Palestinian population is directly descended from the old Kingdom of Israel, no ifs, ands, or buts.
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You really need to re-read YOUR Bible. We are a NATION. Nation of Israel. Land of Israel. They go together. Nations have a land. Ours is the land of Israel.
But as for King David not being genetically Jewish? Only if the tribe of Judah wasn’t Jewish. And you speak of the messiah, but you claim to be Jewish. Which messiah are you talking about, exactly?
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You do know that King David came from Ruth the Moabite- right?
Yes, and if the Maccabees made their reconquest today you’d actually have a point. That’s a historical document, however, and at the time of the reconquest they were casting out foreign Greek rule. It can’t be compared to the displacement of Palestinians from their ancestral homeland.
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Actually, you should re-read YOUR Bible. The statement was made when the same exact type of baseless assetions that you are making now were made then.

As to the “Palestinians”, they have no “ancestral homeland”.

**“It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.” **
  • Ahmed Shuqeiry, later Head of the PLO, in a speech to the UN Security Council, 1974
"It is only for tactical reasons that we carefully stress our Palestinian identity, for it is in the national interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity to counter Zionism: The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the ongoing battle against Israel…"
  • Zohair Mohsin, then head of the PLO Military Operations Dept. and member of PLO Executive Council, in interview for Dutch newspaper Trouw, 31 March 1977
Furthermore, your use of Maccabees and your reference to it as not part of “the Jewish Bible” are quite odd; the Jews I know don’t refer to their scripture as “the Jewish Bible”, and they also know that Maccabees, while not part of Scripture, is part of the Jewish historical record, hence the celebration of Hannukah.
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The Books of Maccabees may be historical, but they aren’t part of the Jewish Bible. I have other history books in the same category at home. And while I could use the normal term that we use, the תנ"ך, but very few here would understand.
 
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