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JimG
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OK, then to get back on subject, it would be a good idea for Gov. Cuomo to align his life with God’s will, and not with the gay agenda.
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Ender
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This much we should all be able to agree with just as we can agree that it is Cuomo’s responsibility to realize that he should not take communion … but the subject of the thread is whether he should be denied communion should he present himself to receive it.
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JimG
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I’m not canonist, so I really can’t offer any expertise on the matter. But it seems to me that if we take the position that he should be denied communion, that transfers the burden of enforcement from Cuomo, and even from the bishop, to every priest and EMHC in the diocese. That’s a pretty heavy burden to place on them, and most bishops, I think, have not taken that path. It would allow Cuomo to present himself for communion, and if he is not actively turned away at the altar rail, to say, “well, they gave me communion, so I must be ok with the Church.” Whereas if the burden is placed on him, it is he who is disobedient in receiving.
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Ender
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He surely owns responsibility for receiving communion unworthily. No one disputes this and this responsibility is not transferred to the minister of communion. This much is specified by Canon 916:* “A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless…”*
The minister of communion, however, is charged with a different responsibility via Canon 915: “Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.”
In cases where an individual’s actions meet the criteria, the minister of communion has the obligation of withholding communion; that’s what “are not to be admitted” means. One doesn’t need to be an expert in canon law to understand the rather plain meaning of the words.
If he is not turned away then not just he but everyone else can say the same thing, that’s why his reception of communion is scandalous, and this is why the canon requires that the sin be manifest, because if it is private there is no scandal.
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tskrobacz
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How is providing equal rights for all people not aligned with God’s will?
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
It is not a “right” to have sex with anyone nor is it a “right” to get married.
And it goes against common sense and biology.
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JimG
Guest
I think that was what the residents of the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah were saying as they threw Abraham and the two angels out of town, saying who are you to infringe on our rights?
Marriage laws are equitable now. Anyone is free to marry someone of the opposite sex. Not everyone has equal rights to marriage though, since a mother is not allowed to marry her son, or a father his daughter. And close relatives are generally prohibited from marrying. But homosexual marriage is simply a fantasy, a contradiction in terms. There can be no marital relations between same sex persons. Marriage between same sex persons is simply a contradiction in terms, like a square circle. They can pretend to be married, but the arrangement has no relation to actual marriage.
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bkovacs
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Well he should add the current governor of California to his list.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=580355
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=580355
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tskrobacz
Guest
When we make the discussion about the legal definition of marriage, fantasy or “sex” we ignore the facts of a society that forbids gay couples from visiting during death in a hospital ward or gaining access to health care services through a partner’s employer.
Society legislates morality for our common good and safety. Personal moral behavior is harder to define as legal behavior. Personal moral rules are not as clear-cut as legal moral rules. My personal ethical rules may not be the same as yours. An ethical crisis for one person may be inconsequential to another.
Sometimes the best a free society can do is establish laws that provide equity and justice on basic human rights - while some may not consider it “marriage” in the sacramental sense - in the legal realm it removes barriers that lead to real injustice without having to invent a new “infrastructure” (legal system) around how to provide basic human services to people that confess to be gay.
We should all take caution in prematurely comparing this situation to something like Sodom and Gomorrah…homosexual behavior has been observed in the animal kingdom as well…clearly more is yet to be revealed.
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Ender
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The debate over gay “marriage” is totally irrelevant to this thread. It doesn’t matter what our individual opinions on that topic are, what matters is what the Church teaches since this thread is about what the Church should do in response to Gov. Cuomo’s actions.
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ComputerGeek25
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Again, this isn’t a “Gay Marriage” issue - but a wider issue with laws and with people with non-standard requirements.
There are legal documents that any good lawyer or hospital will tell you to fill out before anything bad happens - such as wills, power of attorney, who can visit you in the hospital, etc. This will leave less ambiguity in the eyes of the law.
Secondly, I would point out that the laws and other regulations may be too stringent in the first place. What if a person is on bad terms with their family, but has many good friends? This has nothing to do with “marriage” but with common sense. Passing “gay marriage” does not fix this.
But the fact is, humans, in some ways are not the same as most animals. We (or at least “normal” people) know right from wrong, for example.
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tskrobacz
Guest
In my view, nothing - what is the urgency here? Several states passed equivalent legislation before New York. It is for Gov Cuomo to examine his consciousness and rationale for supporting this legislation. Adding oppositional energy does nothing but increase opposition and division. This situation will find its natural balance over time…it may take decades or centuries.
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tskrobacz
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Your statement is self effacing. What do you mean by “normal” people? Science and nature have much to tell us about the glory and infinite nature of God. We should never limit God to the smallness of our current world views. History has proven that all things evolve- including consciousness. That is the Spirit alive in the ongoing creation.
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ComputerGeek25
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No, it is not self-efficating.
By normal I mean people that are free of severe mental illness or handicap.
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Ender
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Cuomo has his responsibility and the clergy has theirs; this thread is about the latter. One thing it is not about is whether acceptance of gay “marriage” is a good or bad thing.
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Cider
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Actions against the natural created order are not rights.
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tskrobacz
Guest
Much of man’s activities are self-serving and are clearly not in concert with the natural created order…we have learned the urgency of global stewardship (Genesis 1:28) through our lack of global stewardship. It is always in our failings and fallings that we come to know the true Christ among us which is always in some way inclusive of everything and everyone, warts and all - now that is indeed good news.
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Veridical16
Guest
JimG is more correct in answering you. Regarding St. Paul’s epistles.
Nobody is calling it a worthiness contest. The only sure way is to make a confession prior to receiving it, you know how you know your’e worthy?
Not because it has anything to do with you , but the Word of Jesus. He gave us the sacrament of confession to have confidence, that we were cleansed. Of course the confession has to be a good one, within the heart.
It is true that Jesus gives himself freely to both unworthy and those in a state of grace, just like the light of the sun falls on both sinner and penitents.
This does not mean the Christ’s will through his church should not discipline its dissident Catholics public sinners as well as warn them of receiving with such public disobedience.
Yes, and Jesus end up saying it would have been better if he was never born.
I think we should listen to the will of God, regarding interdict concerning these public sinners like Cuomo.
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Veridical16
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You are spouting relativism here. No amount of rationale will justify Cuomo, he already has Church clergy admonishing him. The truth is the truth and a lie is lie it doesn’t start with one’s own personal reality. Cuomo is still God’s and he still claims to be Catholic. It is NOT up to him. It is up to him to repent and cooperate with his baptism, if he knew more about the grace behind that he would realize his errors. Not through any reasonable conclusion by his own will. Please pray more before you speak.
Jesus said, he did not come to bring peace but a sword. There WILL ALWAYS BE opposition and resistance regarding Truth & Faith & Morals, you know why? Because many human beings will say “I will not serve!” Energy is not wasted when you stand up to be counted in times of trial!
As Bishop Sheen has said, A lie is a lie whether everyone believes it, truth is the truth whether no one believes it.
I wouldn’t care if there was no division and everyone was believing in a lie. There is no peace!
We are to be the Church Militant. Not the Church Acquiescent.
That is a promotion of indifference and a false tolerance. There is no natural balance that will correct itself over time. The Church already knows what is true. it won’t correct itself through just time.
We will be chastised , God is patient, he is merciful, but he is also just…
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tskrobacz
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My comments earlier were “more will be revealed”…The mystery of truth is part of the ongoing revelation of the Spirit - the truth too evolves as we become aware of bigger truths. This is not relativism…it is simply a recognition that matters such as Gay marriage are not “already and ultimately decided” as there is evidence in the animal kingdom of similar behaviors. Jesus, himself, did not speak directly on the matter although we can learn much from his Gospel of inclusion. I for one am willing to remain open to a bigger truth that we, in our times, have not yet fully grasped.
A wise Priest once said it only takes one exception to the rule to prove the rule to be lacking or simply wrong…I, for one, have met many outwardly holy and God loving Gay people (including some who are Priests) who are discriminated against by our current legal system. That too is not justice.
Like Gov. Cuomo. we too must continuously examine the collective conscience as more is revealed.
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