Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[epan]

epan can never offer facts on anything, much less moral teaching. Don’t hold your breath.

Well, you misuse the word “never”. As long as you are learning the English language, try looking up the word, “ghetto”. You might be surprised at its catholic origin.

On the topic of antisemitism, here is a link which if you scroll down a but will give you 7 centuries of specific papal bulls to research.

zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Papal_Bulls_Jews.htm

It’s one thing to make true statements which are easily verified, and yet another to cast false aspersions on someone without even bothering to seek the truth. Don’t you agree?

 

[Starrsmother]

Please consider the consequences of your rejection of her lifestyle. After her wedding, do you think she would agree to visit without her partner?

If she says she will only visit with her partner, you really only have two choices.

1. Agree to the visit,
2. not see her.

In the end, you will have to decide what is best for you and her.

In the first place, there is no choice. It is absolutely against church rules to participate in a same sex marriage ceremony. As I told her, I’ll always love her and I’ll be here to pick up the pieces when her life implodes somewhere down the line, but I will not put myself on the path to hell–even for her! I don’t know what her attitude will be about visiting us alone–she only has 1 set of parents. We’ll have to see. Have you ever heard of COURAGE and ENCOURAGE? They are support groups for Catholic gays and their families. My daughter does’t belong–I belong to ENCOURAGE and it’s been awesome!

 

[Portrait]

My daughter was about 16 when she decided she was gay. She’s 26 now. First she got into drugs and then step 2 was becoming gay. We sent her to a psychiatrist but there’s only one in our town and frankly “she” is crazier than the people “she” treats. I use quotes because “she” is a 6’4" tall, once male, person with a huge adam’s apple and male pattern baldness who had surgery to become a woman and then --as a woman–decided she was a lesbian. Crazy or normal–go figure! By the time she/it finished with my daughter, I’m pretty sure that my daughter believes that any perverse sexual act out there is normal and fine. I speak to my daughter every few weeks by phone. This is because she lives in Florida and we live in Alaska for now. She understands that we will not and can not participate in her wedding, but we hope when we move home to Texas that she will come visit–but without the girlfriend. We simply stated our love for her but set boundaries. Believe me–she needs boundaries more than almost anything–she just doesn’t know it yet.

Dear Starrsmother,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Jolly good on you for the stand that you have taken in this most distressing matter, which cannot be easy, but as Catholics we must have the boundaries of which you speak.

Personally speaking, dear friend, I think that that you are taking the only possible course of action, short of severing complete contact with your daughter. Moreover, If your daughter does visit you after you relocate to Texas, which I sincerely hope that she does, she ought to have the decency to respect your Catholic beliefs and visit you on her own. That hardly seems too much to ask, given your strong disapproval of such unnatural and detestable unions. At any rate, you are clearly not rejecting her or being a harsh or unloving parent, although in the irreligious and supposedly ‘liberated’ times in which our lot is cast many will no doubt be of that opinion. Even among the Catholic faithful, especially the youth, there is a morbid obsession about being ‘judgmental’, even where it is a matter of mortal sin that is in question. Owing to the moral and cultural deterioration that followed the permissive Sixties, there has been a tragic loss of the Christian consciousness and with it less sensitivity to the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Even gross wickedness no longer offends us or makes us recoil in horror as it did in more God-fearing times. Is it not true that homosexual and lesbian sexual activity, whose genital acts are an abuse of the natural functions, is a clear example of the gross wickedness that no longer offends, notwithstanding that neither are permitted by God? Yes, we Catholics must have boundaries and cannot compromise or be seen to compromise, for that will only serve to damage our credibility and witness.

Quite frankly, dear friend, I am not the least surprised by this psychiatrist of which you speak, for such people are frequently part of the avante garde who are insidiously pressing for a radical change in public opinion. Their fanatical mission is to eliminate all trace of what they perceive to be outmoded puritanical thinking that supresses people’s sexuality and prevents them from openly and proudly declaring themselves ‘gay’ or whatever. These misguided people must share in some of the blame for the outspoken increase in homosexual vice and for its gradual normalization and acceptance, especially in the Western world. Moreover, such ‘professionals’ probably believe that the authoritative Catholic teaching respecting homosexual vice is indistinguishable from radical religious fundamentalism. Now I suspect that this individual who your daughter saw had a profound untoward influence upon her thinking and one must pray very earnestly that any such negative influence will be slowly eradicated and that in due course your dear daughter will see the error of her ways.

Of course, dear friend, we must be loving and welcoming to those who have fallen into divers sinful lifestyles, but we cannot compromise our Catholic beliefs and must have boundaries from which we cannot deviate. All sexual activity outside of holy wedlock, heterosexual as well as homosexual, is strictly forbidden by Almighty God and must be always labelled ‘unthinkable’, not even to be considered, no ifs or buts. Indeed, the only effective way to help those who have fallen into homosexual vice is to have uncompromising boundaries - boundaries which the fallen sinner may one day be exceedingly thankful for.

God bless and may you and all other contributors to this thread have a jolly splendid and relaxing weekend. Goodbye.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

In Christos

PS. Excellent observations, edwest2. Thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I speak to my daughter every few weeks by phone. This is because she lives in Florida and we live in Alaska for now. She understands that we will not and can not participate in her wedding, but we hope when we move home to Texas that she will come visit–but without the girlfriend. We simply stated our love for her but set boundaries. Believe me–she needs boundaries more than almost anything–she just doesn’t know it yet.

She is an adult. It is not your role to set boundaries for her. I imagine by “setting boundaries”, then, you mean you are setting boundaries for yourselves, protecting yourselves. So I want to ask you the question: what does not inviting her girlfriend protect your from? Or how does it benefit your daughter?

I mean, I’m sure it would make everything less awkward. But I don’t see what’s wrong with awkwardness.

 

[SMGS127]

In the first place, there is no choice. It is absolutely against church rules to participate in a same sex marriage ceremony. As I told her, I’ll always love her and I’ll be here to pick up the pieces when her life implodes somewhere down the line, but I will not put myself on the path to hell–even for her! I don’t know what her attitude will be about visiting us alone–she only has 1 set of parents. We’ll have to see. Have you ever heard of COURAGE and ENCOURAGE? They are support groups for Catholic gays and their families. My daughter does’t belong–I belong to ENCOURAGE and it’s been awesome!

Starrs,

Would it be okay with you if they both came and stayed in a separate room than her girlfriend? That seems like it would be an acceptable compromise where she still gets to see you but doesn’t get the chance to commit sin under your roof. Would that work for you? Her girlfriend undoubtedly means more to her than anything else in the world, and she may be taking your rejection of her girlfriend as more of an insult towards the girlfriend than a rejection of her sexual behavior. Being polite to the girlfriend would help repair the relationship with your daughter, and the separate rooms would provide a very clear indicator of how you feel about their relationship.

I understand if that’s not okay with you, but that’s the most typical compromise I’ve seen/heard of in these types of cases.

 

[Tigg]

Substance abuse is a common coping mechanism for those suffering from the severe emotional pain of being trapped in the closet. They drink to cover up their feelings and to avoid covering up their reality that they don’t know how to address. They drink more and more to cover up the feelings.

This is also why such a ridiculous percentage of the LGBT community smokes cigarettes, for anxiety reduction. It’s hard to live in a world where some people want to kill you for your attractions, others don’t want you anywhere near their children, others don’t want you anywhere near THEM, and you’re essentially a social pariah for everything.

Granted I know nothing of the pain of being homosexual. But I do know that we ALL live in a broken world with a fallen nature and all sorts of terrible things have happened to all sorts of people. Posts like these tend to draw attention to the fact that many gays think their suffering is more acute than anything anyone else has suffered. Substance abuse is so common today it can hardly be said that it is more prevalent in gays.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Granted I know nothing of the pain of being homosexual. But I do know that we ALL live in a broken world with a fallen nature and all sorts of terrible things have happened to all sorts of people. Posts like these tend to draw attention to the fact that many gays think their suffering is more acute than anything anyone else has suffered.

I agree with this.

Substance abuse is so common today it can hardly be said that it is more prevalent in gays.

But this seems just clearly false. The statistics prove it.

Now the question of *why *substance abuse is more common among gays is an open question.

 

[Tigg]

But this seems just clearly false. The statistics prove it.

Now the question of *why *substance abuse is more common among gays is an open question.

For every study you can find to support your opinion, I can find another to support mine.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

For every study you can find to support your opinion, I can find another to support mine.

OK, show me one study that says LGBT individuals aren’t more likely to abuse substances. I can show you dozens that say the opposite.

And anyway, this is what we would expect anyway. Sins tend to be related to other sins, since we self-medicate the pain we experience because of our sins.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Granted I know nothing of the pain of being homosexual. But I do know that we ALL live in a broken world with a fallen nature and all sorts of terrible things have happened to all sorts of people. Posts like these tend to draw attention to the fact that many gays think their suffering is more acute than anything anyone else has suffered. Substance abuse is so common today it can hardly be said that it is more prevalent in gays.

How common substance abuse is in society makes the several fold increase in likelihood for substance abuse in lesbians even more disturbing.

 

[davidv]

How common substance abuse is in society makes the several fold increase in likelihood for substance abuse in lesbians even more disturbing.

And is evidence that sin has temporal consequences.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

How common substance abuse is in society makes the several fold increase in likelihood for substance abuse in lesbians even more disturbing.

And strange. I mean, from a brief survey of statistics, gay male youth are not **much **more likely to abuse substances than straight youth, whereas bisexual or lesbian youth are 300%+ more likely to abuse substances. Since the exclusion and societal pressure that lesbians/bisexuals experience is not much greater than the exclusion that gay boys experience, it doesn’t straightforwardly make sense to say that increased substance abuse is caused by social pressure.

So what’s going on?

I have no idea. When I was teaching high schoolers, I remember teaching a number of highly intelligent young ladies who seemed extremely cynical/disaffected because of certain aspects of their childhood. Reading between the lines, I could tell they were battling substance abuse issues (though pot was the only one they specifically mentioned to me) and they all seemed to be experimenting with lesbianism. Now, as a gay-ish p) man, I immediately thought, “Huh. Why do young boys who are/become gay generally experience it as a mostly sexual thing (the relational part comes later), and yet young girls who are/become gay generally experience it as an emotional/relational thing, and why is it so often connected to drugs in the latter case?”

I don’t at all claim that the experience of young boys is healthier – surely not. After all, the sex habits of gay men are much more dangerous and addictive than the sex habits of lesbians. But I think there is a really valid question lurking here.

Any thoughts?

 

[estesbob]

My daughter was about 16 when she decided she was gay. She’s 26 now. First she got into drugs and then step 2 was becoming gay. We sent her to a psychiatrist but there’s only one in our town and frankly “she” is crazier than the people “she” treats. I use quotes because “she” is a 6’4" tall, once male, person with a huge adam’s apple and male pattern baldness who had surgery to become a woman and then --as a woman–decided she was a lesbian. Crazy or normal–go figure! By the time she/it finished with my daughter, I’m pretty sure that my daughter believes that any perverse sexual act out there is normal and fine. I speak to my daughter every few weeks by phone. This is because she lives in Florida and we live in Alaska for now. She understands that we will not and can not participate in her wedding, but we hope when we move home to Texas that she will come visit–but without the girlfriend. We simply stated our love for her but set boundaries. Believe me–she needs boundaries more than almost anything–she just doesn’t know it yet.

We have a similar situation coming up. Like you we will decline to attend the “wedding” . We live in close enough proximity that we see her quite often and often socialize with her significant other. We are hopeful that our refusal to attend the wedding will not permanently destroy our relationship with them but like you acknowledge that there is no way we can be true our faith and attend a same sex “wedding”. It is always been our goal to accept but never affirm . Up

 

[estesbob]

Starrs,

Would it be okay with you if they both came and stayed in a separate room than her girlfriend? That seems like it would be an acceptable compromise where she still gets to see you but doesn’t get the chance to commit sin under your roof. Would that work for you? Her girlfriend undoubtedly means more to her than anything else in the world, and she may be taking your rejection of her girlfriend as more of an insult towards the girlfriend than a rejection of her sexual behavior. Being polite to the girlfriend would help repair the relationship with your daughter, and the separate rooms would provide a very clear indicator of how you feel about their relationship.

I understand if that’s not okay with you, but that’s the most typical compromise I’ve seen/heard of in these types of cases.

That is our rule when they visit us. We treat them the same as any other unmarried couple that will be visiting our home. I don’t think one has to cut off their relationship with close family members just because they are engaging in a sinful lifestyle. All of my children at one time or another have done things I seriously disagree with as I have myself. I know I Sound like a broken record but again you should always accept, always love and never, never affirm.

 

[estesbob]

Substance abuse is a common coping mechanism for those suffering from the severe emotional pain of being trapped in the closet. They drink to cover up their feelings and to avoid covering up their reality that they don’t know how to address. They drink more and more to cover up the feelings.

You daughter likely started abusing substances to try to numb the pain of the closet and eventually couldn’t take the pain even with the drinking so she came out of the closet.

It is interesting that substance abuse and suicide has increased as homosexuality has become more and more accepted in our culture. It would seem that telling them there is no hope and no way out brings more emotional pain than they had when they were in the closet.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

And is evidence that sin has temporal consequences.

The drinking often starts quite a bit before they enter sexual relationships with the same sex.

And strange. I mean, from a brief survey of statistics, gay male youth are not **much **more likely to abuse substances than straight youth, whereas bisexual or lesbian youth are 300%+ more likely to abuse substances. Since the exclusion and societal pressure that lesbians/bisexuals experience is not much greater than the exclusion that gay boys experience, it doesn’t straightforwardly make sense to say that increased substance abuse is caused by social pressure.

So what’s going on?

Substance abuse is a way of dealing with emotional issues, albeit a poor one.

I have no idea. When I was teaching high schoolers, I remember teaching a number of highly intelligent young ladies who seemed extremely cynical/disaffected because of certain aspects of their childhood. Reading between the lines, I could tell they were battling substance abuse issues (though pot was the only one they specifically mentioned to me) and they all seemed to be experimenting with lesbianism. Now, as a gay-ish p) man, I immediately thought, “Huh. Why do young boys who are/become gay generally experience it as a mostly sexual thing (the relational part comes later), and yet young girls who are/become gay generally experience it as an emotional/relational thing, and why is it so often connected to drugs in the latter case?”

I don’t at all claim that the experience of young boys is healthier – surely not. After all, the sex habits of gay men are much more dangerous and addictive than the sex habits of lesbians. But I think there is a really valid question lurking here.

Any thoughts?

Men in general relate to their sexuality as sex whereas for women it is far more emotional hence gay men in general relate to their sexuality as sex whereas for lesbian women it is far more emotional.

I don’t understand why you perceive that gay sex is much more addictive when the reality is that lesbian sex is far more enjoyable than heterosexual intercourse for women while the spread between the enjoyability for gay sex is much smaller.

It is interesting that substance abuse and suicide has increased as homosexuality has become more and more accepted in our culture. It would seem that telling them there is no hope and no way out brings more emotional pain than they had when they were in the closet.

Given that suffering discrimination (eviction for being gay, being disowned by family, etc.) and substance abuse are positively correlation with being welcomed as negatively correlated with substance abuse that is an extremely wrong conclusion. Reality is nowhere near as welcoming towards LGBT people as the media seems.

 

[estesbob]

Given that suffering discrimination (eviction for being gay, being disowned by family, etc.) and substance abuse are positively correlation with being welcomed as negatively correlated with substance abuse that is an extremely wrong conclusion. Reality is nowhere near as welcoming towards LGBT people as the media seems.

There as never been a time in the history of this country that homosexuality has been more tolerated-in fact in may cases even celebreated. And yet we are told substance abuse and suicide is going up. If that is true it has to be due to loss of hope. A culture that condemns them for not accepting their behavior as “normal” and tries to pass laws to keep them from getting help.

 

[frobert]

It is interesting that substance abuse and suicide has increased as homosexuality has become more and more accepted in our culture. It would seem that telling them there is no hope and no way out brings more emotional pain than they had when they were in the closet.

Perhaps some statistics may shed a little light in dark places.

BULLYING BASED ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender
A 2009 survey of 7,000 LGBT aged 13-21 revealed that because of their sexual orientation (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 2014):

• 8 of 10 students had been verbally harassed at school
• 4 of 10 had been physically harassed at school
• 6 of 10 felt unsafe at school
• 1 of 5 had been the victim of a physical assault at school

A national study of middle and high school students revealed 61% of LGBT students were more likely than their non-LGBT peers to feel “unsafe or uncomfortable as a result of their sexual orientation.” Over 25% of LGBT students reported missing classes or days of school because of feeling unsafe (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 2014).

A nationally representative study of adolescents in grades 7–12 found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth were more than twice as likely to have attempted suicide as their heterosexual peers (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 2014).

**Compared with LGBT young adults who experienced very little or no parental rejection, LGBT young adults who experienced high levels of rejection were **(Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 2014):

• Nearly 6 times as likely to have high levels of depression;
• More than 8 times as likely to have attempted suicide;
• More than 3 times as likely to use illegal drugs; and
• More than 3 times as likely to engage in unprotected sexual behaviors that put them at increased risk for HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.

85% of LGBT youth reported experiencing some form of bullying or harassment at school (Zweig, Dank, Lachman & Yahner, 2013).

84.9% of students heard “gay” used in a negative way (“That’s so gay”) frequently or often at school and 91.4% reported they felt upset because of this language (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, 2012).

71.3% of students heard other homophobic remarks (“dyke” or “faggot”) frequently or often (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, 2012).

61.4% of students heard negative remarks about gender expression (“not man enough” or “not feminine enough”) frequently or often (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, 2012).

56.9% of students reported hearing homophobic remarks from their teacher or other school staff (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, 2012).

Peer victimization of all youth was less likely to occur in schools with bullying policies that are inclusive of LGBTQ students (Hatzenbuehler and Keyes, 2012).

81.9% of students who identify as LGBTQ were bullied in the last year based on their sexual orientation (National School Climate Survey, 2011).

63.5% of students feel unsafe because of their sexual orientation, and 43.9% because of their gender expression (National School Climate Survey, 2011).

31.8% of LGBTQ students missed at least one entire day of school in the past month because they felt unsafe or uncomfortable (National School Climate Survey, 2011).

 

[SMGS127]

There as never been a time in the history of this country that homosexuality has been more tolerated-in fact in may cases even celebreated. And yet we are told substance abuse and suicide is going up. If that is true it has to be due to loss of hope. A culture that condemns them for not accepting their behavior as “normal” and tries to pass laws to keep them from getting help.

Actually bullying and hatred are on the rise in this country. Increased visibility also means increased backlash. This generation has had to deal with people suggesting gays were the cause of 9/11, that gays rape children and need to be kept away from them, that gays are the root of evil in this country.

So no, with more tolerance also comes more intolerance. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[estesbob]

Perhaps some statistics may shed a little light in dark places.
BULLYING BASED ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender

A 2009 survey of 7,000 LGBT aged 13-21 revealed that because of their sexual orientation (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 2014):

• 8 of 10 students had been verbally harassed at school
• 4 of 10 had been physically harassed at school
• 6 of 10 felt unsafe at school
• 1 of 5 had been the victim of a physical assault at school

A national study of middle and high school students revealed 61% of LGBT students were more likely than their non-LGBT peers to feel “unsafe or uncomfortable as a result of their sexual orientation.” Over 25% of LGBT students reported missing classes or days of school because of feeling unsafe (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 2014).

A nationally representative study of adolescents in grades 7–12 found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth were more than twice as likely to have attempted suicide as their heterosexual peers (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 2014).

**Compared with LGBT young adults who experienced very little or no parental rejection, LGBT young adults who experienced high levels of rejection were **(Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 2014):

• Nearly 6 times as likely to have high levels of depression;
• More than 8 times as likely to have attempted suicide;
• More than 3 times as likely to use illegal drugs; and
• More than 3 times as likely to engage in unprotected sexual behaviors that put them at increased risk for HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.

85% of LGBT youth reported experiencing some form of bullying or harassment at school (Zweig, Dank, Lachman & Yahner, 2013).

84.9% of students heard “gay” used in a negative way (“That’s so gay”) frequently or often at school and 91.4% reported they felt upset because of this language (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, 2012).

71.3% of students heard other homophobic remarks (“dyke” or “faggot”) frequently or often (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, 2012).

61.4% of students heard negative remarks about gender expression (“not man enough” or “not feminine enough”) frequently or often (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, 2012).

56.9% of students reported hearing homophobic remarks from their teacher or other school staff (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, 2012).

Peer victimization of all youth was less likely to occur in schools with bullying policies that are inclusive of LGBTQ students (Hatzenbuehler and Keyes, 2012).

81.9% of students who identify as LGBTQ were bullied in the last year based on their sexual orientation (National School Climate Survey, 2011).

63.5% of students feel unsafe because of their sexual orientation, and 43.9% because of their gender expression (National School Climate Survey, 2011).

31.8% of LGBTQ students missed at least one entire day of school in the past month because they felt unsafe or uncomfortable (National School Climate Survey, 2011).

How does this compare with 20 years ago?

How were these statistics derived?

How does the incidence of being bullied because of sexual behavior compare to students being bullied for other reasons?

Are homosexual more depressed because they are “bullied” or because they are involved in a spiritually, physically and emotionally destructive lifestyle?