Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[Prodigal_Son]

If you are saying that the results are studies are not true you can attempt to falsify them, otherwise it is not the authors of the statistics from the the numerous articles cited that are lying but innuendo of others.

The one study on the list that I think is really important is hard to find, sadly. It cites the CDC 2014 comparing outcomes between LGBT kids with harsh parents versus helpful parents. I can’t trust the stat until I find its source. I went to the CDC website, and I didn’t find anything helpful there. I’ll keep looking when I have the time. Do you have any leads on where I could find this?

 

[Tigg]

We have become so corrupt that our powers of perception have become corrupted along with our morals.

**This! **And perhaps without full consciousness of real motivation, use any argument to deflect from and justify that which is indefensible. Studies and statistics……really – what is the purpose to one who is honestly seeking Christ and redemption from personal sin.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

**This! **And perhaps without full consciousness of real motivation, use any argument to deflect from and justify that which is indefensible. Studies and statistics……really – what is the purpose to one who is honestly seeking Christ and redemption from personal sin.

Tigg,

If children are genuinely being driven to drugs and suicide because of their parents’ dysfunctional responses to their calling themselves “gay”, then this is a serious problem. It is not a justification of homosexual activity, certainly, but it is something that should make us stand up and take notice.

Now I’m not certain these statistics are true, but it’s worth investigating. If the statistics are true, then self-destructive behaviors among gay teens cannot be “written off” as being caused by the sin itself – they are at least partially caused by other factors. If these statistics are true, then it is the personal sin of PARENTS that is doing a lot of the damage. And it’s these parents who need to seek redemption from personal sin, at least as much as their children.

(Note: None of the statistics I saw imply that children become suicidal because parents merely disapprove of gay sex. It is because parents “reject” them strongly.)

 

[Tigg]

We have gone far afield from the OP which poster says the Catholic Church is a scary place for her. Despite the fact that she states she feels this forum is unsafe for her, she nonetheless starts a thread and then later states she is going to leave the thread for her mental health. So I’m confused as well.

So yes, I’m angry. It makes it hard to go to Church, to have meaningful relationships with my family. My prayer life is strong and I try to follow God’s teachings, but I feel as if I’m hitting brick walls. I am tired of being told that my soul and body are an abomination and that I am incapable of giving romantic love. ….

I don’t know quite what I’m saying here, only that the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip, and the more I feel like this isn’t the place for me. This forum feels unsafe for me.

I don’t know what to do.

Is the author of this thread still reading the posts? We don’t know. If so, how might we help her? From her post, apparently she has received some condemnation from certain quarters, although it was quickly pointed out to her that it is not the Church which is doing so as we have all been exhorted by our bishops, and Christian charity demands, that we treat gays with the dignity and respect to which they are entitled. I understand she is conflicted between what she knows the Church teaches and the temptation to sin because of her SS attractions and she is angry because of this.

Despite the well meaning posts of some, I do not believe that any affirmation of the gay lifestyle or lengthy explanations regarding homosexuality or advice to her to leave the Catholic Church would be helpful since she clearly states she is trying to follow God’s teachings. I think this is/was a good thread in which we might actually offer practical and spiritual help. So I ask again, how can we help her?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

We have gone far afield from the OP which poster says the Catholic Church is a scary place for her. Despite the fact that she states she feels this forum is unsafe for her, she nonetheless starts a thread and then later states she is going to leave the thread for her mental health. So I’m confused as well.

Is the author of this thread still reading the posts? We don’t know. If so, how might we help her? From her post, apparently she has received some condemnation from certain quarters, although it was quickly pointed out to her that it is not the Church which is doing so as we have all been exhorted by our bishops, and Christian charity demands, that we treat gays with the dignity and respect to which they are entitled. I understand she is conflicted between what she knows the Church teaches and the temptation to sin because of her SS attractions and she is angry because of this.

Despite the well meaning posts of some, I do not believe that any affirmation of the gay lifestyle or lengthy explanations regarding homosexuality or advice to her to leave the Catholic Church would be helpful since she clearly states she is trying to follow God’s teachings. I think this is/was a good thread in which we might actually offer practical and spiritual help. So I ask again, how can we help her?

Ultimately her issue isn’t with the Church teaching it is with the Pharisees in the Church who claim that LGBT people must avoid intimate relationships even if nonsexual. For a woman the concept of living life without love is extremely desolate if it can even be called life to live in fear of having to cut out all close relationships lest desire for the person somehow becomes involved.

 

[frobert]

The one study on the list that I think is really important is hard to find, sadly. It cites the CDC 2014 comparing outcomes between LGBT kids with harsh parents versus helpful parents. I can’t trust the stat until I find its source. I went to the CDC website, and I didn’t find anything helpful there. I’ll keep looking when I have the time. Do you have any leads on where I could find this?

It may be difficult to find a specific reference and sometimes even when you do it is behind a pay wall. I was attempting to separate stress of LGBT due to SSA and put it where it properly belongs under bullying. Several years ago I developed an anti-bullying program for a Florida county school district. During the development stage it was apparent the the group most bullied was–Drum Roll–girls. You brought up a valid point in a previous post that not all LGBT youth stress can be distributed to bullying and I agree with that. In the same manner parental disapproval may not be the key factor in every LGBT youth stress.

 

[estesbob]

It may be difficult to find a specific reference and sometimes even when you do it is behind a pay wall. I was attempting to separate stress of LGBT due to SSA and put it where it properly belongs under bullying. Several years ago I developed an anti-bullying program for a Florida county school district. During the development stage it was apparent the the group most bullied was–Drum Roll–girls. You brought up a valid point in a previous post that not all LGBT youth stress can be distributed to bullying and I agree with that. In the same manner parental disapproval may not be the key factor in every LGBT youth stress.

Not only is the group most bullied girls.They are almost exclusively bullied by other girls.

However we digress.Whether or not homosexuals are bullied more that others has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of Church teaching on homosexuality

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It may be difficult to find a specific reference and sometimes even when you do it is behind a pay wall.

Well, if you do find anything behind a pay wall, I should be able to get through it, since I have access to academic journals through my university.

Personally, I have no idea why people who care about gay kids aren’t plastering that stat up on billboards. Do they really think that social conservatives wouldn’t be moved by such a statistic? Do they not understand that religious people have reason to believe that a connection between sin and suicide would be unsurprising – and so that religious people need scientific proof that harsh treatment of gay people is genuinely causal in things like suicide and drug use?

If I can find verification for this statistic, I will definitely publicize it, to whatever degree I can. Too bad the CDC website doesn’t help.

 

[frobert]

Well, if you do find anything behind a pay wall, I should be able to get through it, since I have access to academic journals through my university.

Personally, I have no idea why people who care about gay kids aren’t plastering that stat up on billboards. Do they really think that social conservatives wouldn’t be moved by such a statistic? Do they not understand that religious people have reason to believe that a connection between sin and suicide would be unsurprising – and so that religious people need scientific proof that harsh treatment of gay people is genuinely causal in things like suicide and drug use?

If I can find verification for this statistic, I will definitely publicize it, to whatever degree I can. Too bad the CDC website doesn’t help.

I hope you are right that once such a statistic becomes mainstream it will change minds. I have doubts but hope they are unfounded. That statistic has been cited in many articles. It’s likely the CDC was citing it from external studies. I will try to do a trace through as time permits, if successful I will let you know.

 

[frobert]

Not only is the group most bullied girls.They are almost exclusively bullied by other girls.

However we digress.Whether or not homosexuals are bullied more that others has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of Church teaching on homosexuality

It sounds like you no longer want to falsify the statistics of the numerous references stated. Awesome.

 

[Tigg]

Ultimately her issue isn’t with the Church teaching it is with the Pharisees in the Church who claim that LGBT people must avoid intimate relationships even if nonsexual. For a woman the concept of living life without love is extremely desolate if it can even be called life to live in fear of having to cut out all close relationships lest desire for the person somehow becomes involved.

No one has suggested we are to live a life without love and God has never intended we do so. I would suggest, though, that there are some who need to explore the true meaning of love and intimacy as defined by the Creator and not by the world.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

No one has suggested we are to live a life without love and God has never intended we do so. I would suggest, though, that there are some who need to explore the true meaning of love and intimacy as defined by the Creator and not by the world.

Please expound upon that.

 

[frobert]

Well, if you do find anything behind a pay wall, I should be able to get through it, since I have access to academic journals through my university.

Personally, I have no idea why people who care about gay kids aren’t plastering that stat up on billboards. Do they really think that social conservatives wouldn’t be moved by such a statistic? Do they not understand that religious people have reason to believe that a connection between sin and suicide would be unsurprising – and so that religious people need scientific proof that harsh treatment of gay people is genuinely causal in things like suicide and drug use?

If I can find verification for this statistic, I will definitely publicize it, to whatever degree I can. Too bad the CDC website doesn’t help.

I hope you are right that once such a statistic becomes mainstream it will change minds. I have doubts but hope they are unfounded. That statistic has been cited in many articles. It’s likely the CDC was citing it from external studies. I will try to do a trace through as time permits, if successful I will let you know.

I took the time to locate the source because I believe your reasons for wanting it are principled.

Family Rejection as a Predictor of Negative Health Outcomes in White and Latino Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Young Adults. Caitlin Ryan, PhD, ACSWa, David Huebner, PhD, MPHb, Rafael M. Diaz, PhDa, Jorge Sanchez, BA. PEDIATRICS Vol. 123 No. 1 January 1, 2009 pp. 346 -352

CONCLUSIONS. This study establishes a clear link between specific parental and caregiver rejecting behaviors and negative health problems in young lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults…

Note: Findings from the study were featured in a story by National Public Radio (NPR) health reporter Joe Shapiro on December 29th, 2008

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Well, if you do find anything behind a pay wall, I should be able to get through it, since I have access to academic journals through my university.

Personally, I have no idea why people who care about gay kids aren’t plastering that stat up on billboards. **Do they really think that social conservatives wouldn’t be moved by such a statistic? ** Do they not understand that religious people have reason to believe that a connection between sin and suicide would be unsurprising – and so that religious people need scientific proof that harsh treatment of gay people is genuinely causal in things like suicide and drug use?

If I can find verification for this statistic, I will definitely publicize it, to whatever degree I can. Too bad the CDC website doesn’t help.

They might claim “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Or they might claim that the depression in the case of the nonaccepting family is the result of the person understanding that they are sick and sinful people. Why do I have such low expectations of many social conservatives?

After asking her rapist for forgiveness on the instruction of her BJU counselor, Sarah [1] didn’t smile. The man was a family member, who had abused her for several years as a child.

“I didn’t even know what sex was at that point,” she said. “All I knew was that it hurt and that I didn’t like it.”

When she started at BJU in the late 2000s, Sarah said she was haunted by flashbacks, nightmares and a deep fear of men, and was excited to finally get help. She was referred to Pat Berg, a professor of counseling at BJU and the wife of Jim Berg.

“I would say that the impact of the two years of counseling I had with her is that I felt like I had been raped all over again,” she said.

In their many sessions, Sarah said Berg fixated on her “sin,” and then blamed her when she failed to “get better.” She said Berg told her that she needed to repent of any pleasure she experienced during her abuse. Since BJU doesn’t recognize psychiatric concepts like post-traumatic stress disorder, she said she was also told that she was choosing her trauma symptoms.

“I remember her looking at me and saying, ‘You know that the nightmares are your own fault, because you’re choosing to replay pornographic thoughts in your mind,’” she said.

According to emails, Berg also advised Sarah to call her rapist and ask for forgiveness. Sarah said Berg told her that if she didn’t forgive, God wouldn’t be able to “use her."

http://america.aljazeera.com/conten...ob-jones-universitysexualabuse/jcr:content/ma(name removed by moderator)ar/adaptiveimage/src.adapt.960.high.1403704330011.jpg

But talking to her rapist didn’t make Sarah feel better.

“Picking up that phone that day and calling him was one of the most gut-wrenchingly hard things that I ever had to do,” she said. “It didn’t bring me closure. Instead, it was like sticking a knife inside me and twisting it harder.”

Suicidal and overwhelmed by flashbacks and nightmares, Sarah said she kept going to counseling because “she was so desperate for some ray of light.” But instead, she said Berg told her that if she’d asked God’s forgiveness, she should be fine, and Sarah “walked out of her office for the last time with no hope.”

Through a BJU spokesman, Pat Berg said Sarah’s allegations were “patently false.” BJU wouldn’t respond to any of the other claims until the results of the independent investigation are released. Jim Berg has yet to respond to requests for an interview.

Writing through the university Facebook’s account, a school representative said, “We certainly encourage victims to report any illegal activity to applicable law enforcement agencies as these types of criminals may strike again.” None of the former students interviewed said that they were ever told their abuse was a crime.

This response to rape reports isn’t unique to BJU, according to Peter Janci of the Portland law firm O’Donnell Clark & Crew. In the dozens of sex abuse cases he’s brought against religious organizations, Janci says he’s found this type of victim-blaming reaction to be “all too common.”

“We’ve only hit the tip of the iceberg of the issue of sexual exploitation in Protestant churches,” said Janci, who grew up in an evangelical home. “They haven’t been held accountable.”

source
(Christian ost also talked about it, but this is the article where they got most of their information from

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Yet another Protestant denomination implodes for the sake of same-sex marriage.

lifesitenews.com/news/us-presbyterian-church-votes-to-redefine-marriage-offer-gay-marriages

 

[estesbob]

They might claim “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Or they might claim that the depression in the case of the nonaccepting family is the result of the person understanding that they are sick and sinful people. Why do I have such low expectations of many social conservatives?

source
(Christian ost also talked about it, but this is the article where they got most of their information from

And this relates to Church teaching on homosexuality because?

 

[estesbob]

Yet another Protestant denomination implodes for the sake of same-sex marriage.

lifesitenews.com/news/us-presbyterian-church-votes-to-redefine-marriage-offer-gay-marriages

Thiis what happens when doctrine is determined by a vote.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Please expound upon that.

You are a Catholic and need that to be expounded? How long have you been a Catholic?

 

[PJM]

=naomily;12106439]Okay, so here it is. I’m twenty-three and grew up in your perfect traditional Catholic family. My parents were loving and religious and great. I believed wholeheartedly what I was taught and adored it. And yet, before I even know what homosexuality was (because, like as good like Catholic girls, I was very sheltered), I began to feel romantic urges for girls. This began to creep on me as I grew older and by the time I was seventeen I knew, with some horror, that I had gay feelings.

I can already anticipate your reactions. No, there were no examples of homosexuality in my life. I was not sexually abused. I have healthy, normal relationships with men. You can’t pin this on anything environmental. If I had any choice at all I would have wanted to be straight. You cannot imagine the pain and suffering this has caused me, as a Catholic who wants desperately to be the daughter her parents wanted.

I spent most of my teenagerhood terrified of having close relationships with other women and suffered socially because of it. I tried desperately, and totally alone, to “pray away the gay”. My parents, who are wonderful in every way, didn’t even consider that this could happen to their children. I had no support. I was scared shitless, thanks to some very graphic church sermons and comments dropped by my family, that if anyone found out, I’d be kicked out of the house. Even if I kept my family’s love, there was no getting around that this would change things forever.

Eventually I realized, quite frankly, that my efforts were ********. It was clear that I am who I am. I cannot control my sexuality any more than I can control my love of hip hop, or the color of my eyes. We are born with some preferences, for different flavors of ice cream, and for some genders. I am not a pervert. My feelings for women are as pure and lofty as any my heterosexual friends have.

The more I prayed and tried, desperately, to understand why I am the way I am, the angrier I became. I am angry at my parents and my Church, who created a world of fear. I have spent so much of my life terrified of judgment. I have had no role models, no community, and no compassion.

The Church makes its views on homosexuality very clear. And for all you may claim to love the sinner, hate the sin, you all cannot deny that a Catholic congregation is an unfriendly place for even a celibate homosexual. You cannot deny that being open about who I am would be inviting gossip and cruelty, no matter how closely my life follows Church teachings. It would be like living under a microscope.

I’ve read this community’s responses to questions about homosexuality. I’ve read how, at the first mention of a gay man, you pry into his sexual history.

Imagine telling me at sixteen, a young girl who loved romcoms and longed for romance, that she could never have an intimate relationship. That celibacy for her was not a calling, or a vocation, but a sentence. Heterosexuals choose celibacy and it is a beautiful thing, but homosexuals have no choice. They are slated into one path and let’s be honest here. It sucks.

So yes, I’m angry. It makes it hard to go to Church, to have meaningful relationships with my family. My prayer life is strong and I try to follow God’s teachings, but I feel as if I’m hitting brick walls. I am tired of being told that my soul and body are an abomination and that I am incapable of giving romantic love.

The Catholic Church is scary for me. I wish it wasn’t.

I don’t know quite what I’m saying here, only that the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip, and the more I feel like this isn’t the place for me. This forum feels unsafe for me.

I don’t know what to do.

Friend, There is but One Choice:

Ecclesiasticus 15:18
“Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:”

God CAN"T be wrong.

Heaven and Hell are very real, and Eternity is forever. PRAY MUCH

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Thiis what happens when doctrine is determined by a vote.

Right. I don’t think St. Paul in his epistles urged the towns he had converted to vote on what he had preached.