Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[estesbob]

Please expound upon that.

Love is not synonymous with sex Love is never expressed through sin

 

[frobert]

And this relates to Church teaching on homosexuality because?

The OP told us about her doubts, then stated:

The Catholic Church is scary for me. I wish it wasn’t.

I don’t know quite what I’m saying here, only that the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip, and the more I feel like this isn’t the place for me. This forum feels unsafe for me.

Joie was empathizing with OP:

They might claim “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Or they might claim that the depression in the case of the nonaccepting family is the result of the person understanding that they are sick and sinful people. Why do I have such low expectations of many social conservatives?

After asking her rapist for forgiveness on the instruction of her BJU counselor, Sarah [1] didn’t smile. The man was a family member, who had abused her for several years as a child.

“I didn’t even know what sex was at that point,” she said. “All I knew was that it hurt and that I didn’t like it.”

When she started at BJU in the late 2000s, Sarah said she was haunted by flashbacks, nightmares and a deep fear of men, and was excited to finally get help. She was referred to Pat Berg, a professor of counseling at BJU and the wife of Jim Berg.

“I would say that the impact of the two years of counseling I had with her is that I felt like I had been raped all over again,” she said.

In their many sessions, Sarah said Berg fixated on her “sin,” and then blamed her when she failed to “get better.” She said Berg told her that she needed to repent of any pleasure she experienced during her abuse. Since BJU doesn’t recognize psychiatric concepts like post-traumatic stress disorder, she said she was also told that she was choosing her trauma symptoms.

“I remember her looking at me and saying, ‘You know that the nightmares are your own fault, because you’re choosing to replay pornographic thoughts in your mind,’” she said.

According to emails, Berg also advised Sarah to call her rapist and ask for forgiveness. Sarah said Berg told her that if she didn’t forgive, God wouldn’t be able to “use her."

But talking to her rapist didn’t make Sarah feel better.

“Picking up that phone that day and calling him was one of the most gut-wrenchingly hard things that I ever had to do,” she said. “It didn’t bring me closure. Instead, it was like sticking a knife inside me and twisting it harder.”

Suicidal and overwhelmed by flashbacks and nightmares, Sarah said she kept going to counseling because “she was so desperate for some ray of light.” But instead, she said Berg told her that if she’d asked God’s forgiveness, she should be fine, and Sarah “walked out of her office for the last time with no hope.”

Through a BJU spokesman, Pat Berg said Sarah’s allegations were “patently false.” BJU wouldn’t respond to any of the other claims until the results of the independent investigation are released. Jim Berg has yet to respond to requests for an interview.

Writing through the university Facebook’s account, a school representative said, “We certainly encourage victims to report any illegal activity to applicable law enforcement agencies as these types of criminals may strike again.” None of the former students interviewed said that they were ever told their abuse was a crime.

This response to rape reports isn’t unique to BJU, according to Peter Janci of the Portland law firm O’Donnell Clark & Crew. In the dozens of sex abuse cases he’s brought against religious organizations, Janci says he’s found this type of victim-blaming reaction to be “all too common.”

“We’ve only hit the tip of the iceberg of the issue of sexual exploitation in Protestant churches,” said Janci, who grew up in an evangelical home. “They haven’t been held accountable.”

Why is the CC a scary place for naomily and others? A wild guess, could it be tone and motives of the messengers and not the message of the CC? naomily says that " the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip"

 

[estesbob]

The OP told us about her doubts, then stated:

Joie was empathizing with OP:

Why is the CC a scary place for naomily and others? A wild guess, could it be tone and motives of the messengers and not the message of the CC? naomily says that " the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip"

So homosexuality is not the sin, criticizing the behavior is?

 

[frobert]

So homosexuality is not the sin, criticizing the behavior is?

You read what you think the other person is saying or what you want the other person to say. I did not criticize the message of any CC teaching. I took a guess that “perhaps it is the messengers” which was based on naomily own statement " the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip" Cruel comments and messengers are not what CC teachings are all about.

 

[estesbob]

You read what you think the other person is saying or what you want the other person to say. I did not criticize the message of any CC teaching. I took a guess that “perhaps it is the messengers” which was based on naomily own statement " the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip" Cruel comments and messengers are not what CC teachings are all about.

Is expressing the teachings of the Church cruel ?

 

[SMGS127]

So homosexuality is not the sin, criticizing the behavior is?

I don’t see mutually exclusive terms. Homosexual sex can be a sin and someone criticizing the behavior in a cruel manner can ALSO be committing sin.

Gay sex may always be a sin, but that doesn’t let my friend’s Catholic family off the hook for making fun of the “f****ts” in the community.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t see mutually exclusive terms. Homosexual sex can be a sin and someone criticizing the behavior in a cruel manner can ALSO be committing sin.

Gay sex may always be a sin, but that doesn’t let my friend’s Catholic family off the hook for making fun of the “f****ts” in the community.

But the OP said she had serious problems with the teachings The thread quickly morphed into cruel Catholics are driving homosexuals into depression and suicide

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Why is the CC a scary place for naomily and others? A wild guess, could it be tone and motives of the messengers and not the message of the CC? naomily says that " the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip"

Well, I don’t think the comments most Catholics would make about sodomy (as opposed to the disordered condition of the homosexual) could be considered cruel if they even approached the rhetoric of St. Paul. After all, it can hardly be argued that Paul’s views on sodomy are cruel. And after all, doesn’t the Church say we must love the sinner while hating the sin? How many sodomites simply make the false deduction that hating the sin is equal to hating the sinner? I think Paul’s warnings are an expression of love for the sinner. And sometimes you have to hurt someone in order to make them better, as any physician would attest.

Romans 1:18-32:

“The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”

I Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

 

[edwest2]

All Catholics should not be tarred with the same brush. I hate the cruel slang terms to describe homosexuals, but I disagree with any homosexual person who appears on TV and gives the impression that everyone has a phobia about homosexuals.

Individuals, not groups, should be blamed. There are good and bad people in general. Every group seems to have a portion that is offensive and less than civil or charitable. Church teaching is accurate, but having known and worked with LGBT persons never made me feel like I was entitled to disrespect them, or others, unless an individual did not respect me for some reason. The recent promotion of ‘gay marriage’ was not initiated by Catholics. It has meant that some homosexual persons do not know that there are Catholics who do not think, or want to know, what they do in private. By deciding to make this public, the Church has responded. I can’t tell if anyone I see anywhere is homosexual or not.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Two things:

(1) Everybody take a chill pill. No one here is militantly opposing Church teachings, and no one here is advocating verbally abusing gay teenagers. Let’s not, in our vehemence to defend our opinions, make ourselves look like cartoon parodies of our own positions.

(2) Frobert, I don’t have time at the moment, but I plan on looking at the study you posted in some detail. Thank you very much for finding it!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Delayed response…

It is interesting that substance abuse and suicide has increased as homosexuality has become more and more accepted in our culture. It would seem that telling them there is no hope and no way out brings more emotional pain than they had when they were fifth in the closet.

Well, when taboo protected a person from creating an identity around their sexual attraction, then there was no need to be “in the closet”. You could openly explore your attraction to the same sex, all the while knowing that sex was off limits (taboo). This sort of same-sex attraction is quite healthy, even if not everyone experiences it.

But now that taboo is gone, there are three options:

(1) Hide your desires completely, and be fully “in the closet.” This is not healthy, and does lead to self-hatred and self-harm – plus it often leads to compulsive sexual activity.

(2) Live out your desires actively and openly. This is sinful.

(3) Accept your desires fully, and a live in a sort of strange spiritual ghetto, where it is good and holy to form meaningful friendships that aren’t always devoid of sexual tension, but you absolutely commit yourself to avoid sin and the near occasion of sin.

I think a lot of pain and dysfunctional behavior comes when people won’t choose #2, but haven’t considered #3.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

You are a Catholic and need that to be expounded? How long have you been a Catholic?

Different people give different responses, I wanted to know what Tigg meant

Love is not synonymous with sex

Duh

Love is never expressed through sin

Sometimes people mean well and do it wrong

Is expressing the teachings of the Church cruel ?

it can be expressed in cruel ways

But the OP said she had serious problems with the teachings The thread quickly morphed into cruel Catholics are driving homosexuals into depression and suicide

In the OP she talks about the people not the Church per se being the problem.

Delayed response…

Well, when taboo protected a person from creating an identity around their sexual attraction, then there was no need to be “in the closet”. You could openly explore your attraction to the same sex, all the while knowing that sex was off limits (taboo). This sort of same-sex attraction is quite healthy, even if not everyone experiences it.

But now that taboo is gone, there are three options:

(1) Hide your desires completely, and be fully “in the closet.” This is not healthy, and does lead to self-hatred and self-harm – plus it often leads to compulsive sexual activity.

(2) Live out your desires actively and openly. This is sinful.

(3) Accept your desires fully, and a live in a sort of strange spiritual ghetto, where it is good and holy to form meaningful friendships that aren’t always devoid of sexual tension, but you absolutely commit yourself to avoid sin and the near occasion of sin.

I think a lot of pain and dysfunctional behavior comes when people won’t choose #2, but haven’t considered #3.

What would you suggest to LGBT people who have given their all to celibacy only to see it fail them?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What would you suggest to LGBT people who have given their all to celibacy only to see it fail them?

Is this a personal question?

Joie, there are a number of things to expect if someone gives their all to celibacy:

(1) They will have the experience of Job. They will complain, and they will be told that all their troubles are their own fault. This is what we call a “d*** lie”.

(2) They will fall. Sometimes, in fact, a lack of anything resembling a fall can be a bad sign, since it tends to build one’s confidence without building one’s relationship with God.

(3) They will need to spend lots of time recharging. You cannot live a virtuous, radical Christian life while constantly engaging in the cares and debates of the world.

(4) They will have to battle distorted ideas about the Church. On this forum, for example, sometimes the Church seems harsh and delightless – some of this just follows from the format, sadly. But you see, the devil can play with our perceptions and constantly try and push us to the point where see the Church as our enemy, where we see orthodoxy as stale and lifeless.

(5) They will, in the end, just continually need to die to self. This is a good process. Just as orgasm has been called the “little death”, so repeated attempts to just lay everything down are fruitful. (Feelings are not central here, although dying to self can feel quite amazing. But even if the “little death” isn’t all that good this time, still there is a child born from it: it bears fruit in the life of our friends, our families, our Church.)

Hope this helps. You – or anyone who lays their life on the line for celibacy – have my prayers.

Hugs,
Prodigal

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Is this a personal question?

Joie, there are a number of things to expect if someone gives their all to celibacy:

(1) They will have the experience of Job. They will complain, and they will be told that all their troubles are their own fault. This is what we call a “d*** lie”.

(2) They will fall. Sometimes, in fact, a lack of anything resembling a fall can be a bad sign, since it tends to build one’s confidence without building one’s relationship with God.

(3) They will need to spend lots of time recharging. You cannot live a virtuous, radical Christian life while constantly engaging in the cares and debates of the world.

(4) They will have to battle distorted ideas about the Church. On this forum, for example, sometimes the Church seems harsh and delightless – some of this just follows from the format, sadly. But you see, the devil can play with our perceptions and constantly try and push us to the point where see the Church as our enemy, where we see orthodoxy as stale and lifeless.

(5) They will, in the end, just continually need to die to self. This is a good process. Just as orgasm has been called the “little death”, so repeated attempts to just lay everything down are fruitful. (Feelings are not central here, although dying to self can feel quite amazing. But even if the “little death” isn’t all that good this time, still there is a child born from it: it bears fruit in the life of our friends, our families, our Church.)

Hope this helps. You – or anyone who lays their life on the line for celibacy – have my prayers.

Hugs,
Prodigal

I said similar things, now he’s dead.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I said similar things, now he’s dead.

Oh, Joie, I’m so sorry!

I obviously can’t speak to any of the details, but your friend has my prayers.

 

[Tigg]

The OP told us about her doubts, then stated:

The Catholic Church is scary for me. I wish it wasn’t.

Why is the CC a scary place for naomily and others? A wild guess, could it be tone and motives of the messengers and not the message of the CC? naomily says that " the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip"

When I lived in a very large city, I was part of a prayer group that ministered to many gays. They came to church and socialized with our immediate group; a welcome was even printed in the bulletin. Not once did I ever hear a disparaging word spoken to them and in praying with these people it opened up avenues of some very deep sharing on their part. I never once in the six years of this ministry heard of any incident of a gay being hurt by the general community; although cruel comments did come from within their own family.

This leaves me perplexed about those Catholics the OP seems to be associating with. Perhaps she’s speaking about something she’s read on blogs or even on this forum. I would venture a guess that one’s own conflict in the deepest part of their soul with the daily living of a life of homosexuality would indeed create fear and one’s own conscience, that voice of God, is relentless when living with incongruous attitudes and remember, she also said she is trying to follow the teachings of the Church. I would be afraid too.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

When I lived in a very large city, I was part of a prayer group that ministered to many gays. They came to church and socialized with our immediate group; a welcome was even printed in the bulletin. Not once did I ever hear a disparaging word spoken to them and in praying with these people it opened up avenues of some very deep sharing on their part. I never once in the six years of this ministry heard of any incident of a gay being hurt by the general community; although cruel comments did come from within their own family.

Do you know how rare such prayer groups are, Tigg? Most straight Catholics wouldn’t be seen within miles of a ministry to gay people. Sad, but true.

 

[Starrsmother]

I don’t believe this is true. it is not been my experience or that of anyone I know-including close family members who are homosexual.

I think what we see is an attempt to make the Church shut up about the how destructive homosexual behavior is by claiming their teachings are pushing kids into suicide and depression. As one who suffered for the first several years of my adult life as a raging alcoholic I can tell you first hand how depressing and suicidal one gets when engaging in a destructive behavior-but it was the behavior that caused my problem-not the reaction of others to it

I agree with you. Our culture is so hung up on being PC these days that most people feel like they have to walk around blacks, gays, etc with kid gloves and in a wide circle. My daughter (one of my 5 kids) is a lesbian. She has never faced a moment of discrimination, but anytime she doesn’t get what she wants, that’s the first sentence out of her mouth… I quit molly-coddling her years ago and now she know better than to play that game or card with me. Sometimes you don’t get what you want because someone else is better equipped and sometimes you don’t know why you don’t get it. Life is what it is. All people have to deal with diappointments and get over themselves. That goes for gays too.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

My daughter (one of my 5 kids) is a lesbian. She has never faced a moment of discrimination…

Earlier, you said that you do not allow her partner in your home. Would this policy apply equally if she had a long-term non-married relationship with a boyfriend?

Just checking.

 

[Tigg]

Do you know how rare such prayer groups are, Tigg? Most straight Catholics wouldn’t be seen within miles of a ministry to gay people. Sad, but true.

Possibly, it is rare…I would have liked to hear from you on the second part of my post, though.