Seventh-day Sabbath Questions And Answers

[SDA2RC]

My point is simple: most Christians don’t recognize the Saturday Sabbath, though we do recognize the observance of the Sabbath. The insistence of the SDA that it should be Saturday, period, is evidently flawed by their own admission that they are not sure what exactly the day God began and ended creation; that in itself already destroys any notion that God prescribed a specific day for the Sabbath. Exodus also never prescribed any day for it. We are left only data from Luke and Acts that makes inference when the Sabbath is observed–but that’s a long way from Exodus, and by then it was an established tradition. So the SDA is left with much explaining where they got the notion that Saturday was the God-given day prescribed for its observance. As well, no SDA can say why they observe the Saturday Sabbath but do not even observe all of the Mosaic Law. If the SDA is true to itself, then it should also uphold the Levitical priesthood and the vestments used, the blood offerings and animal sacrifices for the atonement of sins, the celebration of the Jewish feasts and the exact way Jesus celebrated them, the penalties prescribed by the Mosaic Law for sins done, etc. If they do not observe these, then I have to ask it again: what right does the SDA have in demanding other Christians to observe the Saturday Sabbath when they themselves do not even observe the whole of the Mosaic Law, as they themselves are fond of saying?

No, my point is not about the Jews: follow again my line of reasoning to see what I am driving at–my point is that there is no mention of what day the Lord made His rest, nor any mention of what day Exodus prescribed the Sabbath should be observed. In short, we see a progression of Jewish tradition here, which fixed the day to a Saturday, but was not a God-given initiative. By the time of Luke and Acts, we already see a tradition established. I am interested to know how the SDA sees this progression of tradition for a Saturday Sabbath, and as well show that this tradition, from a Catholic perspective, can be changed without fully abrogating the Law. In other words, if it can be demonstrated that this the Saturday Sabbath is a Jewish tradition (again, as opposed to God merely asking to observe the Sabbath), then there is much argument on the side of historic Christianity to actually move this observance from Saturday to Sunday without violating the Law, and thus dent the SDA charge that early Christianity violated it. As we see, the SDA cannot even defend this point, nor say why they follow the Saturday Sabbath in the first place but ignore much of the Mosaic Law themselves.

Millard,
I follow you up to the Manna in the desert, but after that, it has been fairly well established that Saturday is the Sabbath the Jews observed, which is the same day that God caused the Manna not to fall. While it is not called Saturday in scripture, to my knowledge there is not a single shred of evidence that the Seventh-Day that Jesus Rested on, and that the Jews rested on, is not the same day that we call Saturday.

On the other hand, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the fact that Saturday is the Biblical 7th day of the week from at least Exodus forward. Since there was no Sabbath prior to Exodus, the modern correlation of the days of the week to the days of creation seems pointless.

 

[Milliardo]

Millard,
I follow you up to the Manna in the desert, but after that, it has been fairly well established that Saturday is the Sabbath the Jews observed, which is the same day that God caused the Manna not to fall. While it is not called Saturday in scripture, to my knowledge there is not a single shred of evidence that the Seventh-Day that Jesus Rested on, and that the Jews rested on, is not the same day that we call Saturday.

On the other hand, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the fact that Saturday is the Biblical 7th day of the week from at least Exodus forward. Since there was no Sabbath prior to Exodus, the modern correlation of the days of the week to the days of creation seems pointless.

Well, we still go back to the point: in Exodus, did God establish a Saturday Sabbath? The other Biblical passages would only point to a tradition established. What is still interesting is whether God specified a day for the observance of Sabbath; without it, then the SDA’s only line of argument would be that it was followed by the Jews as tradition, which negates any other argument of theirs that Saturday observance of the Sabbath is a God-given prerogative.

 

[SDA2RC]

Actually; I think you are the one who is wrong on all such issues as you are here addressing.

Now; I know that you say how you have been an Adventist and studied all this, but to me, anyone who talks as you do about the Sabbath, and all the supposed confusion about it in the Artic; portrays just how little you ever understood it - even while you were an Adventist. Many people keep Saturday; they don’t know what it is to keep “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

You would make a good “Jew” because of the way you talk about all these supposed problems with Sabbath-keeping in the Artic; or at the ID. Only a legalistic understanding of the Sabbath would ever concoct such “difficulties.” The poor Jews of Biblical times had a list almost as long as your’s! Did you copy some of their’s?

Any “difficulties” with the Sabbath in the Artic, would also happen with Sunday. But only to a legalistic understanding of Sunday observance.

Protestant101,
Thanks for proving my point that you have no clue. You provided no explanation of how the Sabbath should be kept in the Artic, and no official explanation from the SDA Church on such. Instead you have resorted to the same thing you do every time your cornered… you accuse me, or hugo, or anyone else of not understanding Adventism or our beliefs, but you continue refuse to explain what we dont understand. You claim we are wrong, but cant tell us why. In your last post you said it had been answered, but I just didnt like the answers. You still havent provided an answer… why not if it has been answered so easily?

I also think it is funny that when I ask you how to keep the Sabbath in the Artic according to your own church, you accuse ME of having a “legalistic” understanding of the Sabbath. What is legalistic about asking you how to keep the Sabbath according to your own church beliefs?

So… you tell me… does that Sabbath have to be kept according to the Bible or not? If we can ignore the Bible Sabbath reckoning… why are we having this conversation and why have you been defending the Biblical Jewish Sabbath. If we can’t ignore the Bible Sabbath, then tell us in your non-legalistic understanding, which I apparently lack, how the Sabbath should be kept in the Artic and support it by scriptural statemetns on the topic.

Teach us!

 

[mozart-250]

Millard,
On the other hand, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the fact that Saturday is the Biblical 7th day of the week from at least Exodus forward. Since there was no Sabbath prior to Exodus, the modern correlation of the days of the week to the days of creation seems pointless.

I think Millardo and myself are saying the same things.

The point here is whether God dictated that the first day of the week be what we now call Sunday leaving the seventh day of the week Saturday. There is no record in Scripture that He did so.

By all accounts God left the first and seventh days undefined, thereby leaving man to arbitrarily pick a starting point in this seven day sequence we now call a week.

 

[SDA2RC]

Well, we still go back to the point: in Exodus, did God establish a Saturday Sabbath? The other Biblical passages would only point to a tradition established. What is still interesting is whether God specified a day for the observance of Sabbath; without it, then the SDA’s only line of argument would be that it was followed by the Jews as tradition, which negates any other argument of theirs that Saturday observance of the Sabbath is a God-given prerogative.

Millardo,
Do you believe that Christ witheld Manna on the 7th day and called it the Sabbath. (Exodus 16), if so, isnt this the definition of the 7th day by God? I realize that there is no absolute proof either way… however, the evidence seems overwhelming, and I have never seen anyone successful in arguing it, because to argue this would require that you ignore pretty much any authority on the topic. Since there is no absolute proof either way with the 7th day of the week being Saturday… there is no way to prove them wrong either. (Although I agree… it would be an easy way to negate their arguments… LOL)

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101,
Thanks for proving my point that you have no clue. You provided no explanation of how the Sabbath should be kept in the Artic, and no official explanation from the SDA Church on such. Instead you have resorted to the same thing you do every time your cornered… you accuse me, or hugo, or anyone else of not understanding Adventism or our beliefs, but you continue refuse to explain what we dont understand. You claim we are wrong, but cant tell us why. In your last post you said it had been answered, but I just didnt like the answers. You still havent provided an answer… why not if it has been answered so easily?

I also think it is funny that when I ask you how to keep the Sabbath in the Artic according to your own church, you accuse ME of having a “legalistic” understanding of the Sabbath. What is legalistic about asking you how to keep the Sabbath according to your own church beliefs?

So… you tell me… does that Sabbath have to be kept according to the Bible or not? If we can ignore the Bible Sabbath reckoning… why are we having this conversation and why have you been defending the Biblical Jewish Sabbath. If we can’t ignore the Bible Sabbath, then tell us in your non-legalistic understanding, which I apparently lack, how the Sabbath should be kept in the Artic and support it by scriptural statemetns on the topic.

Teach us!

Ok; now that I have gotten your attention up a degree or two; tell us: How would you keep Sunday, or “observe” Sunday in the Artic my friend?

 

[SDA2RC]

I think Millardo and myself are saying the same things.

The point here is whether God dictated that the first day of the week be what we now call Sunday leaving the seventh day of the week Saturday. There is no record in Scripture that He did so.

By all accounts God left the first and seventh days undefined, thereby leaving man to arbitrarily pick a starting point in this seven day sequence we now call a week.

Exodus 16. It makes no sense that God reprimanded the Isrealites for something that he left totally open to their own choice as to when to observe. After all, if it was arbitrary, when he told them to quit profaning HIS Sabbaths, how would they know what days he was talking about? God’s own language indicates that they had a mutual understanding of what he considered the Sabbath. There is no proof or evidence that they have lost their count.

 

[Milliardo]

Millardo,
Do you believe that Christ witheld Manna on the 7th day and called it the Sabbath. (Exodus 16), if so, isnt this the definition of the 7th day by God? I realize that there is no absolute proof either way

The question would still remain: seventh day–which seventh day? There are seven days in a week, any of which would fall into a seventh day of something. So, did that fall on a Saturday then? Again, no absolute proof.

Since there is no absolute proof either way with the 7th day of the week being Saturday… there is no way to prove them wrong either. (Although I agree… it would be an easy way to negate their arguments… LOL)

Kind of like the debate about creation/evolution? But on that score, that is my line of thought is–since it negates all their other arguments regarding Saturday Sabbath.

 

[SDA2RC]

Ok; now that I have gotten your attention up a degree or two; tell us: How would you keep Sunday, or “observe” Sunday in the Artic my friend?

Protestant101, I realize you are trying your hardest not the answer the questions I asked you and are therefore, just asking me to answer them in order to deflect the attention from you. But I must insist that you please tell us the answers to the questions I have asked, or simply tell us you dont know. I will recap them here:

So… you tell me… does that Sabbath have to be kept according to the Bible or not? If we can ignore the Bible Sabbath reckoning… why are we having this conversation and why have you been defending the Biblical Jewish Sabbath. If we can’t ignore the Bible Sabbath, then tell us in your non-legalistic understanding, which I apparently lack, how the Sabbath should be kept in the Artic and support it by scriptural statemetns on the topic.

I think everyone here would be very intersted in your answers. Especially after you told me that they have been answered and I just “didnt like the answers”. Tell me… what answers didnt I like?

 

[SDA2RC]

The question would still remain: seventh day–which seventh day? There are seven days in a week, any of which would fall into a seventh day of something. So, did that fall on a Saturday then? Again, no absolute proof.

Kind of like the debate about creation/evolution? But on that score, that is my line of thought is–since it negates all their other arguments regarding Saturday Sabbath.

So as not to take away from the point of this discussion with our Adventists brethren… I will agree to disagree Thanks Millardo!

 

[mozart-250]

Exodus 16. It makes no sense that God reprimanded the Isrealites for something that he left totally open to their own choice as to when to observe. After all, if it was arbitrary, when he told them to quit profaning HIS Sabbaths, how would they know what days he was talking about? God’s own language indicates that they had a mutual understanding of what he considered the Sabbath. There is no proof or evidence that they have lost their count.

But there is still no solid evidence from Scripture that God explicitely defined what the first day of the week is. He just said to keep the seventh day.

It seems very plausible (to me anyway) that God only said what we know He said, that is keep the seventh day. Then His people arbitrarily picked a starting point with Saturday being the seventh day. God then accepted the starting point that they picked and the seventh day then became the Sabbath.

If that is the way it happened, it seems very obvious to me that God is not locked into what we now know as Sunday as being the first day of a seven day cycle we call a week.

 

[Milliardo]

Exodus 16. It makes no sense that God reprimanded the Isrealites for something that he left totally open to their own choice as to when to observe. After all, if it was arbitrary, when he told them to quit profaning HIS Sabbaths, how would they know what days he was talking about? God’s own language indicates that they had a mutual understanding of what he considered the Sabbath. There is no proof or evidence that they have lost their count.

My own thought about this is that God is reprimanding them for not observing the Sabbath as per His own commandment–note that in the Decalogue, He only mentioned about observing the Sabbath without specifying what day it should be. Has it fallen at that point at what day it should be? Again, nothing there shows us explicitly that it did. But hey–we already agreed to disagree. We’re on the same side, hehe!

 

[SDA2RC]

But there is still no solid evidence from Scripture that God explicitely defined what the first day of the week is. He just said to keep the seventh day.

It seems very plausible (to me anyway) that God only said what we know He said, that is keep the seventh day. Then His people arbitrarily picked a starting point with Saturday being the seventh day. God then accepted the starting point that they picked and the seventh day then became the Sabbath.

If that is the way it happened, it seems very obvious to me that God is not locked into what we now know as Sunday as being the first day of a seven day cycle we call a week.

Mozart,
Read Exodus 16, they didnt pick an arbitrary day…God dictated the day by refusing to feed them on that day for 40 years…OK really I am going to quit posting and agree to disagree… LOL… really…

 

[SDA2RC]

My own thought about this is that God is reprimanding them for not observing the Sabbath as per His own commandment–note that in the Decalogue, He only mentioned about observing the Sabbath without specifying what day it should be. Has it fallen at that point at what day it should be? Again, nothing there shows us explicitly that it did. But hey–we already agreed to disagree. We’re on the same side, hehe!

We are definitely on the same side…

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101, I realize you are trying your hardest not the answer the questions I asked you and are therefore, just asking me to answer them in order to deflect the attention from you. But I must insist that you please tell us the answers to the questions I have asked, or simply tell us you dont know. I will recap them here:

So… you tell me… does that Sabbath have to be kept according to the Bible or not? If we can ignore the Bible Sabbath reckoning… why are we having this conversation and why have you been defending the Biblical Jewish Sabbath. If we can’t ignore the Bible Sabbath, then tell us in your non-legalistic understanding, which I apparently lack, how the Sabbath should be kept in the Artic and support it by scriptural statemetns on the topic.

I think everyone here would be very intersted in your answers. Especially after you told me that they have been answered and I just “didnt like the answers”. Tell me… what answers didnt I like?

My last question to you was my answer. And please, back up your reply with Scripture statements. When you do this; I will then be able to supply more information that you have requested. I need your answer to that last question in order to explain to everyone my point here.

I know it probably makes you feel better to believe that you have me “cornered” and that I am “avoiding” something here; but it is my honest belief, that as you answer my question about how you would observe Sunday in the Artic, that my point would be much better made than my writing many pages in reply. I also believe that this question I have asked, is indeed the answer you don’t like.

 

[w_stewart]

Stewart,
God identified the Sabbath day in Exodus 16 by refusing to give the Israelites Manna on the Sabbath. This is how they knew what day was the 7th day. There is no evidence what so ever, that the Jews changed their day of worship after that point, or forgot how to count 7 days. The NT reinforces that the day we call Sunday is the first day, hence the day we call Saturday would be the 7th day, the Jewish Sabbath.

The Catechism supports this also.

Is there evidence that the seventh day God meant in giving the commandment was Saturday?

My point is that the essence of the commandment was not the name of the day. God told the Israelites that they could work in six days but on the next, obviously, the seventh day, they MUST rest. The essence of this commandment was that, in six days, (regardless of the names of these days,) they were permitted to work and the next day, the seventh, (again, regardless of the name of that day) they MUST not work.

It is not important whatever the name of the seventh day when the people of God was ordered to rest.

 

[mozart-250]

Mozart,
Read Exodus 16, they didnt pick an arbitrary day…God dictated the day by refusing to feed them on that day for 40 years…OK really I am going to quit posting and agree to disagree… LOL… really…

After having read the chapter…I see your point.

But since they did not have calendars at that time, I can not say with infallible certainty that day is Saturday. It would only be Saturday if I knew with absolute certainty that the Jewish people faithfully observed the Sabbath without any lapse or errors from that point in time to today.

Although I would like to think that is the case, I do not know with infallible certainty that is the case.

Anyway, my complaint against the Adventists has never been that they worship on Saturday as opposed to the rest of us that worship on a Sunday. If they really feel in their heart that is what God would have them do, go do it in peace as far as I am concerned. My complaint more has been that this has been a defining issue for them and that the rest of us are somehow in apostasy over this.

 

[w_stewart]

Anyway, my complaint against the Adventists has never been that they worship on Saturday as opposed to the rest of us that worship on a Sunday. If they really feel in their heart that is what God would have them do, go do it in peace as far as I am concerned. My complaint more has been that this has been a defining issue for them and that the rest of us are somehow in apostasy over this.

I agree.

 

[Protestant101]

Unfortunately, this is simply another man made belief of Adventists. The term “Lord’s Day” has been shown in other writings of the same time period to refer only to Sunday. There is not one single reference of the term “Lord’s Day” ever referring to The Jewish Sabbath.

But it has never been “shown” in the Bible. Only in “other writings.” What are these “other writings” that “show” this point so well?

 

[Protestant101]

Why would I try to hold onto the 10 Commandments when we have been given the ministry of the Spirit, which scripture here says is soo much better? I do not think that the Gospel message includes the “ministry of death”… why would you?

Continued

The ministry of The Spirit is what the seventh-day Bible Sabbath is all about. God would not abolish such a thing. It’s amazing how Christians accuse God of making something wrong, as in the Old Covenant to which they like to relegate doctrines which they do not like. The Sabbath is actually one of the things God made at creation; and that is not “Old Covenant” anyways. Because the Sabbath is a sign of God’s authority over believers today; He has every reason to want us to hang onto it - not throw it away.