Several questions regarding the events at Fatima, Portugal in 1917...

[ORD_NASILA]

I think that I understand what was said, but the language was a little confusing. Allow me to try. It is not that Jesus submits to the authority of the Church. It is that Jesus operates through the Church that he has established.

When Jesus knocks poor Saul off of his horse, he sends him to the Apostles to have his sight restored and to be ordained an Apostle. They impose hands on him and he receives Holy Orders (which is badly translated Latin that means, he is sent to do Christ’s work).

This is Christ operating through the Church and the sacramental system that he established, not Christ submitting to his Church. His Church is an extension of his saving work in the cross. Whatever the Church does is really Christ in action.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you Brother. I think that owing to the (sometimes) archaic English language used as translation from original Koine Greek or Aramaic and subsequent Latin much of Scripture does seem to bear out St Paul who wrote in 1 Cor 13:12, ’ For now we see as through a glass, darkly:…" Regard, O.N.

 

[ORD_NASILA]

Here is the Douay Bible which has penance frequently mentioned, where modern translations prefer ‘repentance’. The Douay is the most Catholic Bible we have in these times…

Dear Shin, I had resolved not to post any more comments regarding PENANCE seeing that your Catholic Brother JR had posted such an excellent explaination of that practice, but a reading of your statement above causes me to wonder if the **modern translations **that you mention have in fact come to the conclusion that REPENTANCE and PENANCE are connected , but not the same. My understanding is that, REPENTANCE is the **feeling of sorrow **for your sins, and PENANCE is the **outward sign of that sorrow **for those sins. I venture to say that PENANCE would actually mean very little to God, seeing that our Heavenly Father knows the intent of men’s hearts, and therfore does not need any outward signs to confirm that knowledge. So, for whose benefit is this Penance? Another way of looking at this is, suppose a judge imposes a light sentence and no fine on a convicted criminal because that criminal showed signs of remorse, even though the crime committed would ordinarily attract a much longer sentence coupled with a big fine.However, if that criminal was just pretending to be remorseful then that judge has made an error in judgement has he not? This is not the case with God, who as it is written, “knows the intent of men’s hearts” (?) and imposes a punishment, or not,(according to His Will) regardless of any penance performed by the sinner. Regard, O.N.

 

[Sir_Knight]

If this doesn’t settle it, nothing will.

If I may politely add something here, it may help. The requests that the Blessed Mother made at Fatima have never been affirmed by the Church as formal teachings. They are worthy of belief.

Second, it has always been part of the Catholic and Orthodox traditions that the Virgin Mary does not have authority over the Church. Only Peter has that kind of authority. Whether to consecrate the world or not is not binding on the pope. It is true that Mary is both mother and model of the Church, she is not the Vicar of Christ. We have to be careful here or we fall into heressy, if we equate her authority to that of Peter. From the early Church to this day, the Apostles venerate her and held her in a very special place in their hearts and in their spiritual lives. But there is no precedent where Mary’s directions to the Church bind Peter or his successors.

With this in mind, the Mother of God would not hold the pope bound to her wishes. This does not deny that such a wish may have been expressed by Our Lady during the apparitions at Fatima. What we are simply saying is that Our Lady herself knows that she is expressing a wish, not a command.

Whether the pope consecrates Russia and the world to her satisfaction is really a non question for the hierarchy, because they are not bound to do so. Therefore, there is no moral or spiritual culpability for not doing so, if such were the case.

Having said all of this, the Holy Father said that he had done as she requested. Let’s look at that. He did as she requested according to his criteria. This is perfectly valid. Ultimately, it is Peter’s criteria that must govern. If he is satisfied, then we can rest.

We have be tred gently here or we can find ouselves creating a power struggle between Mary and Peter, a sort of Mary said and Peter did, kind of thing. Mary and Peter were never in competition over the governance of the Church or the exercise of duty. Peter was the identified Vicar of Christ, not Mary. While we love and honor Mary, we obey Peter. God, in his infinite wisdom and mercy would not ask us to do something that is in conflict with Peter, even through his mother. Everything that God asks through his mother must be consistent with the nature of the Church as he established her.

This goes back to if the pope says that he did the consecration and that he is satisfied, then we can rest assured that Mary is satisfied, because she is always submissive to the Will of the Son. It is the Vicar of Christ who has the authority to teach and define that Will for us, not Mary. Mary supports the work of the Vicar through her prayer and whatever she can do to point to Christ as she did at Cana.

I would suggest that we take to heart the words of Virgin Mary, “Do whatever he tells you.” Whatever Peter says as the Vicar of Christ, that’s what we do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Windfish]

Hi, guys. I haven’t posted in this thread for a while. I have bought and read six books on the subject, and I now know quite a lot! I was hoping you guys could help with two things, though:

-All of the books say that the newspapers reported the on the prediction for the October miracle by as early as May. I believe this (otherwise, how why would the newspaper editors and all the masses assemble in October, but not the previous months?), but I was hoping one of you may able to point me to these reports.

-The children ecstatically talked about their own deaths to pilgrims. This is on Wikipedia, but I have not found a source for this.

Any help?

 

[premeet01245]

Sure, jump right in. The more, the merrier.

thanks for your help.

 

[Robert_Burns]

No, my point is this: We assume that Fatima is legitimate as our starting point (why do you believe this, since it too isn’t an ex cathedra teaching?). The Pope says that the Consecration has been properly fulfilled, you deny or doubt that. You haven’t presented any credible evidence so all we have is your word. So it is your word against the Pope’s. Thus my question is, how are you more credible than the Pope. Why should I take your word over the Popes? That is what I am asking you to answer and convince me on.

At Fatima Our Lady said that God wished to establish in the world devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Our Lady said that many souls would be saved from Hell and the annihilation of nations averted if, in time, devotion to Her Immaculate Heart were established principally by these two means:

1. the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by the Pope together with the world’s bishops in a solemn public ceremony, and

(2) the practice or receiving Holy Communion (and other specific devotions of about 1/2 hour in duration) in reparation for the sins committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary, on the first Saturdays of five consecutive months–a practice known to Catholics as “the First Saturday” devotion.

HAVE THESE REQUESTS OF OUR LADY OF FATIMA BEEN HONORED?

No, not entirely. A number of the Faithful practice the “First Saturday” devotion, but Russia has yet to be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in a solemn public ceremony conducted by the Pope together with the world’s Catholic bishops.

In 1982 the last surviving Fatima seer, Lucia, who is now a cloistered nun living in Coimbra, Portugal, was asked if an attempted consecration by Pope John Paul II had sufficed. She replied that it did not suffice, because Russia was not mentioned and the world’s bishops had not participated. Another attempted consecration in 1984 likewise did not mention Russia or involve the participation of many of the world’s bishops, and Sister Lucia stated immediately afterwards that this consecration, too, had failed to meet Our Lady’s requirements.

Robert: I didnt write this and so I am not alone in My Opinion.

WHAT DOES THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA WARN?

It warns that if the requests of Our Lady of Fatima for the Consecration of Russia and the First Saturday devotion are not honored, the Church will be persecuted,

Robert: Is the Church being persecuted right now on several fronts?

there will be other major wars,

Robert: Is this a period of world peace or a period of widespread danger up to and including Nuclear war?

the Holy Father will have much to suffer

Robert: In light of recent allegations that couldnt have been known then - is the Pope suffering right now?

and various nations will be annihilated.

Robert: European Union?

Many nations will be enslaved by Russian militant atheists.

Robert: Is Russia a Catholic Nation or a nation overrun by Atheists?

Most important, many souls will be lost.

Robert: Do you honestly think millions of Souls arent being lost today - what with Euthanasia being the law in some countries in Europe - Homosexuality accepted as Normal - millions of Babies being aborted - Contraception - Stem Cell research - Fornication - Immodesty etc etc etc the list goes on and on.

I know that Our Lord said “BY THE FRUITS” - These are the Fruits I see.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I stand with the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. Christ stands behind the Pope, who is his Vicar and who has been given the Keys. Mary stands with Christ always.

I believe the Pope. The only argument you have presented in defense of your doubts is your word. Why should I believe you more than the Pope?

Robert : The Pharisees didnt believe Our Lord either. What did he say to them? What are the works. Did the Consecration you say was done furnish the Works expected?

Obviously not.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Stop right there. Since the consecration is not a matter of faith, the Pope is under no obligation to “obey” or “submit” or “comply” as you have been calling for him to do.

You stop right there. FATIMA calls for two scenarios. What happens IF the POPE does as Our Lady requests and what happens if he doesnt. It isnt rocket science to determine which scenario is better for the worlds Catholics. I dont demand anything. I merely petition in Charity. And as for who seems to be demanding of the two of us - It would appear to me that you are far more rigid and inflexible in your commentary than am I.

 

[Robert_Burns]

If I may politely add something here, it may help. The requests that the Blessed Mother made at Fatima have never been affirmed by the Church as formal teachings. They are worthy of belief.

Second, it has always been part of the Catholic and Orthodox traditions that the Virgin Mary does not have authority over the Church. Only Peter has that kind of authority. Whether to consecrate the world or not is not binding on the pope. It is true that Mary is both mother and model of the Church, she is not the Vicar of Christ. We have to be careful here or we fall into heressy, if we equate her authority to that of Peter. From the early Church to this day, the Apostles venerate her and held her in a very special place in their hearts and in their spiritual lives. But there is no precedent where Mary’s directions to the Church bind Peter or his successors.

With this in mind, the Mother of God would not hold the pope bound to her wishes. This does not deny that such a wish may have been expressed by Our Lady during the apparitions at Fatima. What we are simply saying is that Our Lady herself knows that she is expressing a wish, not a command.

Whether the pope consecrates Russia and the world to her satisfaction is really a non question for the hierarchy, because they are not bound to do so. Therefore, there is no moral or spiritual culpability for not doing so, if such were the case.

Having said all of this, the Holy Father said that he had done as she requested. Let’s look at that. He did as she requested according to his criteria. This is perfectly valid. Ultimately, it is Peter’s criteria that must govern. If he is satisfied, then we can rest.

We have be tred gently here or we can find ouselves creating a power struggle between Mary and Peter, a sort of Mary said and Peter did, kind of thing. Mary and Peter were never in competition over the governance of the Church or the exercise of duty. Peter was the identified Vicar of Christ, not Mary. While we love and honor Mary, we obey Peter. God, in his infinite wisdom and mercy would not ask us to do something that is in conflict with Peter, even through his mother. Everything that God asks through his mother must be consistent with the nature of the Church as he established her.

This goes back to if the pope says that he did the consecration and that he is satisfied, then we can rest assured that Mary is satisfied, because she is always submissive to the Will of the Son. It is the Vicar of Christ who has the authority to teach and define that Will for us, not Mary. Mary supports the work of the Vicar through her prayer and whatever she can do to point to Christ as she did at Cana.

I would suggest that we take to heart the words of Virgin Mary, “Do whatever he tells you.” Whatever Peter says as the Vicar of Christ, that’s what we do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Robert : Well said - and it is for that reason Our Blessed Mother gave us two scenarios for what would happen if the Pope consecrated Russia to her Immaculate Heart and if he did not , leaving open the possibility that he may not. Unfortunately for us - if the latter is the case it is not the better course of action IMO.

 

[Victorious]

Robert : Well said - and it is for that reason Our Blessed Mother gave us two scenarios for what would happen if the Pope consecrated Russia to her Immaculate Heart and if he did not , leaving open the possibility that he may not. Unfortunately for us - if the latter is the case it is not the better course of action IMO.

Actually, she didn’t. She said Russia would be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart, and that in the end, her Immaculate Heart would triumph.

 

[Robert_Burns]

We have be tred gently here or we can find ouselves creating a power struggle between Mary and Peter, a sort of Mary said and Peter did, kind of thing. Mary and Peter were never in competition over the governance of the Church or the exercise of duty. Peter was the identified Vicar of Christ, not Mary. While we love and honor Mary, we obey Peter. God, in his infinite wisdom and mercy would not ask us to do something that is in conflict with Peter, even through his mother. Everything that God asks through his mother must be consistent with the nature of the Church as he established her.

This goes back to if the pope says that he did the consecration and that he is satisfied, then we can rest assured that Mary is satisfied, because she is always submissive to the Will of the Son. It is the Vicar of Christ who has the authority to teach and define that Will for us, not Mary. Mary supports the work of the Vicar through her prayer and whatever she can do to point to Christ as she did at Cana.

I would suggest that we take to heart the words of Virgin Mary, “Do whatever he tells you.” Whatever Peter says as the Vicar of Christ, that’s what we do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

In rereading your post I do disagree with one aspect of your post. No Pope is the Immaculate Conception. Every Pope is under the yoke of Original Sin , unlike the Blessed Virgin Mary. As St Louis Marie De Montfort states in True Devotion to Mary - Marian Devotion always perfectly compliments the Will of ALMIGHTY GOD. MARY is the Queen of Heaven - Higher than any created person including every POPE. Does the POPE have to submit to The Blessed Virgin Mary? No , because in her humility she will come and make known the will of GOD for Men. Not in pride or power but in total submission to the WILL OF GOD itself. Not the will of man and not the will of any POPE. In the passage you cite - the Miracle at Cana - Our Lord said "What is it to thee and to me - my time has not yet come. " To which Our Blessed Mother responded by telling the porters to "Do as he Commands you. " And Jesus worked his first miracle - how did she know to tell those porters that if not so united to the Godhead as to know implicitly that her divine Son would refuse her nothing. So is the Pope not fulfilling the role of the porter by doing as Christ commands - as facilitated by the Mother of GOD Herself who is so closely united to GOD - the Father - the Son and the Holy Ghost as to an action known and communicated by the Mother of GOD in her total submission to the Will of GOD? No , Our Blessed Mother would not insist in power to tell the Pope what to do - but if the Pope is wise and understands the unity of the Blessed Virgin to the Holy Trinity itself - it is a no brainer. IMO.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Actually, she didn’t. She said Russia would be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart, and that in the end, her Immaculate Heart would triumph.

The Message of Fatima promises that "IF "the requests of Our Lady of Fatima are fulfilled:

“My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will Consecrate Russia to Me, which then will be converted, and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”

Is RUSSIA Converted? Obviously not

 

[beehumble]

The Message of Fatima promises that "IF "the requests of Our Lady of Fatima are fulfilled:

“My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will Consecrate Russia to Me, which then will be converted, and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.”

Is RUSSIA Converted? Obviously not

That is not correct. Our Lady said, according to Fatima in Lucia’s Own Words, written by Lucia herself, on pages 123-124:

"…The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.

There was no ‘if’ in that last sentence. Our Lady prophesied that it would be done.

 

[beehumble]

Robert : The Pharisees didnt believe Our Lord either. What did he say to them? What are the works. Did the Consecration you say was done furnish the Works expected?

Obviously not.

The woks are: The Russian people are no longer led by an officially atheist government, and the country is slowly unwinding from the 70 years of Communism (70 by the way is a biblical number meaning ‘fulfillment’ or ‘the time has been fulfilled’.)

We are in the period of peace (which means a period of reconciliation of God and man, not a peace between man and man). That was God talking at Fatima, so think "bigger’’ than you are thinking. The Jews thought the Messiah would free them from the Romans, not Satan. They were thinking too small for God.

So the consecration has been done. Sr. Lucia, the Vatican, and history prove it. Others here, you do not have to persuade or prove it to Robert. He has set it in his mind that it has not been done, so let it be. It seems to me that only a personal message from God telling him it has been done will suffice so nobody will be able to convince him; and I doubt any personal message will be forthcoming, so let it go.

Any other questions about Fatima?

 

[Hunter53]

In rereading your post I do disagree with one aspect of your post. No Pope is the Immaculate Conception. Every Pope is under the yoke of Original Sin , unlike the Blessed Virgin Mary. As St Louis Marie De Montfort states in True Devotion to Mary - Marian Devotion always perfectly compliments the Will of ALMIGHTY GOD. MARY is the Queen of Heaven - Higher than any created person including every POPE. Does the POPE have to submit to The Blessed Virgin Mary? No , because in her humility she will come and make known the will of GOD for Men. Not in pride or power but in total submission to the WILL OF GOD itself. Not the will of man and not the will of any POPE. In the passage you cite - the Miracle at Cana - Our Lord said "What is it to thee and to me - my time has not yet come. " To which Our Blessed Mother responded by telling the porters to "Do as he Commands you. " And Jesus worked his first miracle - how did she know to tell those porters that if not so united to the Godhead as to know implicitly that her divine Son would refuse her nothing. So is the Pope not fulfilling the role of the porter by doing as Christ commands - as facilitated by the Mother of GOD Herself who is so closely united to GOD - the Father - the Son and the Holy Ghost as to an action known and communicated by the Mother of GOD in her total submission to the Will of GOD? No , Our Blessed Mother would not insist in power to tell the Pope what to do - but if the Pope is wise and understands the unity of the Blessed Virgin to the Holy Trinity itself - it is a no brainer. IMO.

This is a great post A+. Anyone that thinks that history proves that the consecration has been done, needs to quit watching the media. Communism just no longer needs to hide behind an iron curtain but has the freedom to be out in the open with out people noticing it.

 

[LilyM]

This is a great post A+. Anyone that thinks that history proves that the consecration has been done, needs to quit watching the media. Communism just no longer needs to hide behind an iron curtain but has the freedom to be out in the open with out people noticing it.

But Our Lady said “IN THE END” her Immaculate Heart would triumph, so all the benefits she promised at Fatima aren’t guaranteed to happen now, rather ‘in the end’.

Fatima isn’t a promise that the triumph will/would happen immediately upon the successful consecration of Russia. Nor within 25 years of the consecration, nor within 100 years of it, nor within 1000. Rather it is a promise that it will happen ‘in the end’.

And if, as you say, she spoke of Russia’s consecration and the triumph of Her Immaculate Heart as a certainty then what on earth are you worrying about? Simply trust that it will happen. All the Rosaries in the world won’t make it a bit more or less likely, if as Our Lady said it is a certainty.

 

[Mimi]

snip from post 298:

When Jesus knocks poor Saul off of his horse, he sends him to the Apostles to have his sight restored and to be ordained an Apostle.

Not to be nitpicky, but scripture does not mention Saul was on a horse, though he has been depicted in this scene as being mounted in art. Of course, being “knocked off my horse” has come to mean “I was completely amazed & stupefied”.

Re: America Needs Fatima
Last summer (or it may have been 2 yrs ago), I attended a home meeting of America Needs Fatima where a young man from this apostolate came, told the story. Then we prayed the rosary and were invited to pray to/with Mary for her intercession for our needs. A book I purchased was Meet The Witnesses of the Miracle of the Sun
store.tfp.org/products/Meet-the-Witnesses-of-the-Miracle-of-the-Sun.html

I find it fascinating to read the words of the people who were actually there.

Also, I specifically asked the young presenter if the consecration had been carried out, & he said, “Yes”. So that’s good enough for me.

We must pray for Russia to be converted, and for all who are steeped in the Darkness of this Age.

God bless - pray the rosary!
Mimi

 

[Sir_Knight]

This is a great post A+. Anyone that thinks that history proves that the consecration has been done, needs to quit watching the media. Communism just no longer needs to hide behind an iron curtain but has the freedom to be out in the open with out people noticing it.

Anyone who thinks that the Popes have lied to the flock that they shepard, needs to stop calling themselves a Catholic.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I merely petition in Charity.

You petition for something which our spiritual leaders already said has been done.

And as for who seems to be demanding of the two of us - It would appear to me that you are far more rigid and inflexible in your commentary than am I.

Exactly what is it that I am demanding?

 

[ORD_NASILA]

.We must pray for Russia to be converted, and for all who are steeped in the Darkness of this Age. Mimi

Why Russia Mimi? Such a small population when compared to India and China. Is it because Russia was once a Catholic country? Regard, O.N.