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Hunter53
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Maybe if all of the Catholics would have voiced their outrage to the errors brought on after VII then we would not be in this mess today.
Several questions regarding the events at Fatima, Portugal in 1917...
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Sir_Knight
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Are you implying that the Catholic Church is a democracy? The flock was given to Peter to shepard and the Pope is the successor to Peter. The shepard does not take orders from the sheep.
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Robert_Burns
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Robert : An unreasonable concept of what is or isnt Ex Cathedra to the point of judging the faith of your fellow Catholics. Remember - Our lord said that whatever you do to the least of the bretheren you are doing to him.
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Robert_Burns
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Robert: Russia isnt CONVERTED. Our Blessed Mother didnt say anything about the fall of Communism - she spoke about the CONVERSION of Russia. Are you saying that Russia is converted and now a Catholic Country? Once again , obviously not.
As for thinking “Bigger” It would appear that you have a rather “worldly” concept of Catholic conversion - a rather worldy concept of what true morality is and a rather worldy concept about peace. Putin is not a Catholic and Russia is supporting Iran’s goal of attaining Nuclear armaments which will be unacceptable to NATO and lead to War with Israel and or the United States. Our Blessed mother speaking in 1917 spoke of fashions that greatly offend her son. Are you saying that todays fashions are not exactly what she predicted? All the bad things she predicted are coming true and here today most catholics sit in their ignorant bliss thinking that her request has come true all the while we hurl towards Armaghedon.When I read this post from you - all I could think of was the attitude that the daughters of Jerusalem had when Our Lord told them not to weep for him but for themselves and a few short years later the Romans beat Jerusalem flat to the ground. No , we Catholics do need to think much bigger - that part I agree with - but by doing as Our Blessed Mother has requested. In the meantime - Babies are ripped legally from their mothers wombs and slaughtered or created in test tubes and dismembered - people use artificial contraception - Homosexuals march proudly in the streets and marry -women and men dress and act immodestly to the point that immosdesty no longer even shocks the average person anymore - the media produces entertainment that is either geared towards witches and warlocks and vampires and werewolves with the immodesty mixed in - I could go on for days and days. And you sau that I need to think bigger? I think that all Catholics need to open their eyes and see this world for what it is today - not a Holy place and to understand that just because sin no longer shocks many of us - it still offends Almighty GOD because it is against his Commandments. And I dont write these things to alarm anyone or to criticize people - but in Charity - because as of this moment it is not too late. But if these things are merely “accepted” as the way things are then I am reminded that a chastisement is in order. One need only read Romans Chapter 1 with emphasis on Verse 32. I agree we are t5hinking too small for GOD by allowing ourselves to ignore the Warnings of the Blessed Virgin Mary and thereby consenting to the cesspool of sins that surround us.
Pax
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Robert_Burns
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Robert: The Catholic Church is a monarchy and Jesus Christ is the King the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Queen - his kingdom is not of this World so he has a Prince in charge of Earth. A prince has the power from the King to lead provided he does the will of the crown. (and not to be trite - its Shepherd not “Shepard”) The Shepherd is JESUS - he knows his Sheep and they know him. The Pope and the Flock do take orders from Jesus.
Ask yourself this
Does the Pope ever have to go to confession?
The answer of course is yes.
Perhaps you should meditate on that truth.
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Sir_Knight
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First off, the Church teaches that even when the Pope does not speak Ex Cathedra, he is still being guided by the Holy Spirit when it comes to matters that involve the guiding of Church. Secondly, it is YOU who are judging the Popes saying that their comments are FALSE and not to be believed. You are saying this about someone who has the authority of the Son of God and is being guided by the Holy Spirit of God. I am defending that person against your attack. Scripture commands us to always be ready, willing and able to come to the defense of our faith.
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Sir_Knight
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I put you in charge of my company telling you that you have complete and absolute power until I return. I addition, I leave you with an advisor who will be in constant contact with me. Time goes by. Some woman that you never heard of comes to you saying that she heard from my mother that you are to do a certain thing with the company. Do you do it?
The answer is that the person MAY be telling the truth or they may not. The bottom line is that you are NOT obligated to do it because you were left with complete authority plus you are being guided by an advisor who is in constant contact with me.
You are mixing apples and oranges. The Pope’s personal sinful has no bearing on his lawful authority.
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Robert_Burns
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First , understand , I actually am very proud of your fervor in what you percieve is the defense of the Faith. But I am not the enemy. For example - when St Catherine of Siena wrote to the Pope in Avignon imploring him to return the See to Rome just prior to the Western Schism , she was demanding , critical and for all intents and purposes - she was admonishing him. Could what she wrote be percieved as an attack on the faith or even an insult to the dignity of the office? Or the infamous criticism of St Paul of St Peter often cited by Protestants? Popes can err. They cannot err when Teachings Ex Cathedra. But once again - everything that eminates from their mouth isnt Ex Cathedra.
Second - the purpose for Papal Infallibility is to keep the Faith Orthodox. Jesus spent 3 years giving the Deposit of Faith to the Apostles. The Pope is promised the Holy Ghost not so he can make his own doctrine - but so that he can guard the Doctrine of JESUS CHRIST. The ecumenical Church Council that infallibly defined Papal Infallibility was Vatican I. Yes - St Peter is given the Keys and the Guidance of the Holy Ghost. but he is given those powers so as to guard the Deposit of Faith as handed down. Nothing is added to it and nothing is taken out of it. It is simply applied to the age and more fully explained by the reigning POPE.
Its simply my opinion that many Catholics today dont fully understand the purpose of Papal Infallibility and thus start coming up with their own idea that the POPE is the Holy Ghost incarnate a mouthpiece for GOD 24 / 7. That isnt a Catholic belief.
Pax
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simple_soul
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*Dear Robert Burns,
I know this post was in response to Sir Night but I have a quick question.
When the apparitions at Fatima were declared worthy of belief was it declared by the then Pope and if so was he speaking Ex Cathedra?
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Robert_Burns
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No. Because when a Pope speaks ex cathedra it makes the belief binding on all Catholics.
Now - in anticipation of an obvious question to come - “Then why do it” keep in mind - as Shepherd of the Flock - the Pope must guide the Church. Not all “Apparitions” are valid. There have been false “Apparitions” attributed to The Blessed Virgin Mary. So the faithful must look to the lawful authority of the Church in oder to be certain that any “apparition” is "Worthy of Belief. "
So , think about it this way.
Is Lourdes and Guadalupe (With the miraclulous image of the Blessed Virgin on the Tilma) and Fatima and the Shroud of Turin all “Worthy of Belief” Yes because the Church has said so.
Is the “Immaculate Conception” or the “Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary” merely “Worthy of Belief”. NO ! Its DOGMA. Anyone who refuses to believe in the Immaculate Conception or in the Assumption places themselves outside of the Church.
Thats the difference.
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Robert_Burns
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Belief in Fatima is non binding. Thus your argument fails.
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Robert_Burns
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But the fact that he can commit sin proves that his every action isnt dictated by the Holy Ghost. GOD cannot sin.
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LeeRain
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I think that I understand what was said, but the language was a little confusing. Allow me to try. It is not that Jesus submits to the authority of the Church. It is that Jesus operates through the Church that he has established.
When Jesus knocks poor Saul off of his horse, he sends him to the Apostles to have his sight restored and to be ordained an Apostle. They impose hands on him and he receives Holy Orders (which is badly translated Latin that means, he is sent to do Christ’s work).
This is Christ operating through the Church and the sacramental system that he established, not Christ submitting to his Church. His Church is an extension of his saving work in the cross. Whatever the Church does is really Christ in action.
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boston dui lawyer
When Jesus knocks poor Saul off of his horse, he sends him to the Apostles to have his sight restored and to be ordained an Apostle. They impose hands on him and he receives Holy Orders (which is badly translated Latin that means, he is sent to do Christ’s work).
This is Christ operating through the Church and the sacramental system that he established, not Christ submitting to his Church. His Church is an extension of his saving work in the cross. Whatever the Church does is really Christ in action.
insurance advice
boston dui lawyer
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simple_soul
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OK, I agree with this.(Not that I could tell you what constitutes an Ex Cathedra statement or not.)
No, this is not my next question.
My next question is in regards to the part of what you said that I put in emphasis.
In keeping in mind that “as the Shepard of the Flock-the Pope must guide the Church,” can we trust him and follow his guidance when he says that the consecration has been done?
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simple_soul
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*Dear Robert,
This has always made me wonder. How does conversion work? Is it really something that happens over night or in a blink of an eye? The reason I ask is because I know I do not know or understand God’s Truths as deeply as maybe you or others in these forums do, so does this mean I am going to Hell because I have not converted as much as you or others have?
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VitaminC
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Take a look at the following two quotations attributed to Cardinal Ratzinger. The first comes from an interview with Jesus Magazine in 1984 (which Cardinal Ratzinger himself reviewed and approved before publication). The second is from 1996:
Note the color coding. Red pairs with red, green with green, etc. Note the contradictions between the two versions.
In 1984, when asked by an interviewer why the Third Secret hasn’t been revealed:
“Because, according to the judgement of the Popes, it adds nothing to what a Christian must know concerning what derives from Revelation: i.e., a radical call for conversion; the absolute importance of history; the dangers threatening the faith and the life of the Christian, and therefore of the world. And then the importance of the end times. If it is not made public - at least for the time being - it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational. But the things contained in this ‘Third Secret’ correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparitions, first of all that of Fatima in what is already known of what its message contains. Conversion and penitence are the essential conditions for ‘salvation’.”
In 1996, when asked by an interviewer why the Third Secret hasn’t been revealed:
“I’ve had enough of speaking about that. The message transmitted by Sister Lucy, and not yet revealed, concerns neither the history of the world in general nor individual facts in particular. The Lady does not enter into details about the future. The Secret contains nothing new, it foretells no tragedy for humanity, nothing apocalyptic and nothing essential for the faith. The Lady simply opens a path, and this path leads to conversion and to faith. In a certain sense, the Second Vatican Council was the realization of the Virgin’s message and, in summoning it, Pope John XXIII did the essential in answer to the Virgin’s message.”[taken from The Catholic Counter-Reformation in the XXth Century, #289, Oct. 1996]* → see:* catholicism.org/downloads/suppressing.pdf . Also the book, FATIMA IN TWILIGHT, Mark Fellows, Marmion Publications, 2003).
So, what happened? Cardinal Ratzinger told two different stories. He didn’t just tell two different stories. His second story was the exact opposite of his first one!
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Robert_Burns
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Ram: Can we or MUST we is the question. A Pope can have an opinion and be wrong.OK, I agree with this.(Not that I could tell you what constitutes an Ex Cathedra statement or not.)
No, this is not my next question.
My next question is in regards to the part of what you said that I put in emphasis.
In keeping in mind that “as the Shepard of the Flock-the Pope must guide the Church,” can we trust him and follow his guidance when he says that the consecration has been done?
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Robert_Burns
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I was reading a book by St Theresa - the Interior Castles. I found a profound Truth. (BTW anyone who has read that book knows how spiritually deep it is) I feel similar sentiments when I read some accounts by the Saints or their life accounts. Our Lord put is simply as - Love GOD with your whole heart with your whole soul and with your whole mind and your neighbor as yourself out of that Love for GOD. It is my belief that the more you learn about GOD and his Truths the more you realize how pitifully inadequate we all are and how utterly dependent on him we all are. So dont seek as much to have knowledge of GOD - but rather - spend your time putting him first in everything you do and loving him as much as you possible can. When you can do that - the 7 gifts of the Holy Ghost will flow to you . So my opinion - The secret is to love GOD. And love your neighbor. Not just say it - but do it. And if you do these things - GOD’s grace will be yours in abundance.
Pax
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simple_soul
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. And then the importance of the end times. If it is not made public - at least for the time being - it is in order to prevent religious prophecy from being mistaken for a quest for the sensational. But the things contained in this ‘Third Secret’ correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparitions, first of all that of Fatima in what is already known of what its message contains. Conversion and penitence are the essential conditions for ‘salvation’."
In 1996, when asked by an interviewer why the Third Secret hasn’t been revealed:
“I’ve had enough of speaking about that. The message transmitted by Sister Lucy, and not yet revealed, concerns neither the history of the world in general nor individual facts in particular. The Lady does not enter into details about the future. The Secret contains nothing new, it foretells no tragedy for humanity, nothing apocalyptic and nothing essential for the faith. The Lady simply opens a path, and this path leads to conversion and to faith. In a certain sense, the Second Vatican Council was the realization of the Virgin’s message and, in summoning it, Pope John XXIII did the essential in answer to the Virgin’s message.”[taken from The Catholic Counter-Reformation in the XXth Century, #289, Oct. 1996]* → see:* catholicism.org/downloads/suppressing.pdf . Also the book, FATIMA IN TWILIGHT, Mark Fellows, Marmion Publications, 2003).
So, what happened? Cardinal Ratzinger told two different stories. He didn’t just tell two different stories. His second story was the exact opposite of his first one!
*OK, I took out the color coding and, I know I am not a scholar, but I do not read these to statements as saying the opposite. One just goes into more detail of how even Pope John XXIII started to try and answer Our Lady’s message. I read them to be essentially saying the same thing. Could anyone else please explain the difference between these two statements? *
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simple_soul
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So would this also apply to can we or MUST we believe in the relevance of the apparitions in the first place?
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