Sex crimes and the Vatican

[fix]

I think that is a pretty poor translation of what I actually asked for an you know it. Of course clerics do good. I was addressing the SPECIFIC example of the sexual abuse scandal. Can you cite me one reference of a Bishop or priest notifying authorities and doing the right thing before the lid was blown off this thing? What does that say if out of 5,000 allegations in the US through hundreds possibly thousands of parishes you can not cite me one reference of a Bishop or priest notifying the authorities to protect children.

I have no way of knowing that information and frankly it makes no difference. My post to you was totally genuine. Why would you think that if some bishops cover up these things it in some way effects the faith?

 

[Saint_Michael]

I have no way of knowing that information and frankly it makes no difference. My post to you was totally genuine. Why would you think that if some bishops cover up these things it in some way effects the faith?

It’s not one Bishop, it’s every single Bishop and priest that was involved in these scandals. NOT to be confused with “every Bishop” in the Church. But of the Bishops involved in these scandals every one has shown that they did not contact the authorities and were more concerned with protecting the Church than the welfare of children.

If just one in the past 40 years stood up, handed over the pervert to protect his flock, I could have something to hang my hat on. But I don’t have that.

Of course it affects the faith, I have seen that in matters of faith and morals our Bishops showed no integrity. Why should I be lead by that? On top of that the document which shows that Bishops and clerics are to use “extreme secrecy” in dealing with sexual malfeasance is too much.

 

[michaelmac]

So, your position is there is a grand conspiracy from the vicar of Christ on down to intentionally foil law enforcement?

what have they been doing for years ,even when found to have covered up abuse they act as the have done know wrong, Got a copy of the Ferns report, In Ireland they are still hiding abusive priests Your michael

 

[Maryam]

What I always find amazing is that people take the actions of human beings and because of this will leave Jesus Christ and the Church he founded.

How in the world can you compare the things of the Spirit to the actions of man? Man is imperfect, selfish, greedy, sinful… Where is the newsflash in this being something new for humanity?

Even if 99.9% of Catholic Clergy were corrupt… What excuse will I have on the day of judgement to give to Christ for having left his church?

This in no way excuses Priests that abuse children or those who cover it up. I myself was a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of several family members, but, does that mean that I will write off my whole family because of it? The Catholic church and all its members are my FAMILY… Will I write off all of you here because of the actions of other Catholics??? YOU ARE ALL A PART OF MY FAMILY!

For the love of God when will people learn to separate the things of God from the stupidity and evil done by human beings.

As the Catechism states we are all “ONE BODY” (CCC 790) in the church of which Christ is the HEAD. We are member’s of Christ’ body. So that makes all of us ONE FAMILY. And in being a FAMILY we fight and argue with one another, love one another and in extreme cases are even abused by members of our family.

Will we throw the baby out with the bathwater for the actions of some in the clergy?

Even Christ says in the Bible that those who follow HIM will find in some cases that even their own family has become their ENEMY.

And for some who say show me this and that in the church so I won’t leave it! What??? If you can say such a thing then you NEVER HAD A TRUE UNDERSTANDING of what the sacraments are, what the Church represents and willingly are able to leave it all behind because of the actions of MAN.

Abuse is horrible…I have lived it. And those guilty of it should be punished, but understand this. When you have the TRUTH the evil one will attack it hard. If this was a perfect world the church would not have any problems. Unfortunately that is not the world we are living in.

Ok, off my soapbox… You can throw the virtual tomato’s at me any time you wish.

God bless all

 

[fix]

It’s not one Bishop, it’s every single Bishop and priest that was involved in these scandals. NOT to be confused with “every Bishop” in the Church. But of the Bishops involved in these scandals every one has shown that they did not contact the authorities and were more concerned with protecting the Church than the welfare of children.

I cannot defend bad bishops, but that only reflects them not everyone else.

If just one in the past 40 years stood up, handed over the pervert to protect his flock, I could have something to hang my hat on. But I don’t have that.

Why does that matter?

Of course it affects the faith, I have seen that in matters of faith and morals our Bishops showed no integrity. Why should I be lead by that?

You should be led by that because that is what God asks of us. I am hardly easy on the bishops, believe me, but your position seems unsupportable. I agree there is a problem with some bishops but why are you hanging your faith on this one issue which does not impact the teaching of error? Bad example can be a scandal, but we have an intellect and can separate bad behavior from teaching error.

On top of that the document which shows that Bishops and clerics are to use “extreme secrecy” in dealing with sexual malfeasance is too much.

The 1962 document is a fair document. My beef is those “old” rules should have been followed more closely.

 

[fix]

what have they been doing for years ,even when found to have covered up abuse they act as the have done know wrong, Got a copy of the Ferns report, In Ireland they are still hiding abusive priests Your michael

If someone is breaking the law they should be penalized.

 

[michaelmac]

If someone is breaking the law they should be penalized.

Simple as that , I wish , Thr Irish police have just finnished a four year inquiry into the Diocese of Dubiln ,A waste of tax payers money , The head of the church in Ireland said this and i quote people who shot dead others who were unarmed had INTEGRITY , Yours michael

 

[michaelmac]

A spokesman for Ireland’s Catholic bishops said that since a document circulated by Cardinal Ratzinger in 2001, directing that all clerical child abuse cases be referred to Rome, five men had been dismissed from the priesthood in Ferns diocese. He could not say how many had been dismissed in the other 25 dioceses.
This speaks for its self yours michael

 

[pnewton]

If someone is breaking the law they should be penalized.

I would hope anyone convicted of a crime against children or even adults, from a position of trust, would be punished to the maximum extent of the law. A problem arises in that often there is not evidence enough for conviction. We must also defend presumption of innocence, even though it is often distasteful, while safeguarding children even without a proponderance of evidence. Otherwise we would be no better than a lynch mob, or beheading squad, or whatever they do in England.

 

[corvidae]

Look at it from the perspective of this quote

“The priests have been trying for over 1,500 years to destroy the Church and they have not succeeded. You won’t either.” - Pope Pius VII to Napoleon Bonaparte (attributed)

The Church is an institution, and if it were a human institution, it would have fallen long ago. No matter what the members of the Church do, you must look at the Church. If you believe that Christ founded a Church and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it, where is your faith?

This is not about people, it is about faith.

I would follow the Church even if Jack Chick were my priest, why, because I believe God founded it and will not abandon it.

A lone Raven

 

[fix]

I would hope anyone convicted of a crime against children or even adults, from a position of trust, would be punished to the maximum extent of the law. A problem arises in that often there is not evidence enough for conviction. We must also defend presumption of innocence, even though it is often distasteful, while safeguarding children even without a proponderance of evidence. Otherwise we would be no better than a lynch mob, or beheading squad, or whatever they do in England.

I agree completely. This issue is very emotional with folks. What gets me so often is that these issues go on all the time outside the Church and few make such a stink about it.

For decades secular folks in positions of influence “covered up” all types of stuff and still do.

 

[Saint_Michael]

I agree completely. This issue is very emotional with folks. What gets me so often is that these issues go on all the time outside the Church and few make such a stink about it.

For decades secular folks in positions of influence “covered up” all types of stuff and still do.

Should the Church founded by Christ be held to a higher standard?

It isn’t the scandal I know people have moral failings, and the priesthood is infiltrated by homosexuals which has caused this scandal and essentially decimated the priesthood. It’s the fact that in 40 years not one Bishop did what any human would consider to be the correct thing, and this is turn a child rapist in so he can’t rape more children, or at least get him out of pastoral responsibilities, send him somewhere where he is less a danger to children, we didn’t see that, we saw the opposite. That’s very telling to me. I honestly don’t know how anyone can read that document and not be disturbed by it.

 

[Caesar]

A spokesman for Ireland’s Catholic bishops said that since a document circulated by Cardinal Ratzinger in 2001, directing that all clerical child abuse cases be referred to Rome, five men had been dismissed from the priesthood in Ferns diocese. He could not say how many had been dismissed in the other 25 dioceses.
This speaks for its self yours michael

Looks like the process has been hurried along, It usually takes much longer for a priest to be removed from the clergy.

 

[Caesar]

Should the Church founded by Christ be held to a higher standard?

It isn’t the scandal I know people have moral failings, and the priesthood is infiltrated by homosexuals which has caused this scandal and essentially decimated the priesthood. It’s the fact that in 40 years not one Bishop did what any human would consider to be the correct thing, and this is turn a child rapist in so he can’t rape more children, or at least get him out of pastoral responsibilities, send him somewhere where he is less a danger to children, we didn’t see that, we saw the opposite. That’s very telling to me. I honestly don’t know how anyone can read that document and not be disturbed by it.

It’s actualy two documents the BBC used, one of them being on the Seal of Confession. Like I said before, the BBC has stooped to sensationalist garbage, just like the tabloids. Yellow journalism.

 

[fix]

Should the Church founded by Christ be held to a higher standard?

It isn’t the scandal I know people have moral failings, and the priesthood is infiltrated by homosexuals which has caused this scandal and essentially decimated the priesthood. It’s the fact that in 40 years not one Bishop did what any human would consider to be the correct thing, and this is turn a child rapist in so he can’t rape more children, or at least get him out of pastoral responsibilities, send him somewhere where he is less a danger to children, we didn’t see that, we saw the opposite. That’s very telling to me. I honestly don’t know how anyone can read that document and not be disturbed by it.

It seems your problem is with human nature. It is not going change any time soon.

 

[dulcissima]

Should the Church founded by Christ be held to a higher standard?

It isn’t the scandal I know people have moral failings, and the priesthood is infiltrated by homosexuals which has caused this scandal and essentially decimated the priesthood. It’s the fact that in 40 years not one Bishop did what any human would consider to be the correct thing, and this is turn a child rapist in so he can’t rape more children, or at least get him out of pastoral responsibilities, send him somewhere where he is less a danger to children, we didn’t see that, we saw the opposite. That’s very telling to me. I honestly don’t know how anyone can read that document and not be disturbed by it.

Doesn’t it seem like seeking criminal charges would naturally have fallen upon the victim or the vitim’s parents? I think it is only a recent development that any institution or any head of such an institution would initiate such a step.

 

[Saint_Michael]

It seems your problem is with human nature. It is not going change any time soon.

No it isn’t, do you honestly think that as a practicing Catholic, weekly Mass attender, I go to daily Mass at least once a week, confess monthly, that I just now became aware of the priesthood scandal? I mean seriously?

My point is the document, and let me reiterate that I DID NOT READ ANY BBC PROGRAMS, I can’t say that enough because it keeps coming back to that. My problem is with the 39 page document itself, that I actually sat down and read intently, and how it fits into 40 years of cover ups and silence from our Bishops. When every case you find shows Bishops doing the polar opposite of the right thing to do, you begin to wonder about the leadership of this institution you are following, and how internal documents affected their decision making. It would seem just on odds one Bishop would’ve stopped enabling pedophiles, but it does appear from this document that they had a policy to handle matters of sexual malfeasance by clergy, and that it was to be done in “utter secrecy”.

 

[Caesar]

Ok, it seems to me that arguing over who’s at fault over the issue is not very productive. We can argue all day (actualy, thats whats been happening) over how much the Holy See knew, what those documents actualy meant, how quick the Dioceses responded, ect.

None of that will get us anywhere.

The real question we should be focusing on is how to fix the problem. What measures need to be in place to ensure that these people stay out of the seminaries? How should we better identify problematic priests in the future (hopefully before anything happens)? How can we better improve communications and legal structures to make sure the Bishops and the Holy See react faster? These are the questions we should be asking.

 

[Caesar]

No it isn’t, do you honestly think that as a practicing Catholic, weekly Mass attender, I go to daily Mass at least once a week, confess monthly, that I just now became aware of the priesthood scandal? I mean seriously?

My point is the document, and let me reiterate that I DID NOT READ ANY BBC PROGRAMS, I can’t say that enough because it keeps coming back to that. My problem is with the 39 page document itself, that I actually sat down and read intently, and how it fits into 40 years of cover ups and silence from our Bishops. When every case you find shows Bishops doing the polar opposite of the right thing to do, you begin to wonder about the leadership of this institution you are following, and how internal documents affected their decision making. It would seem just on odds one Bishop would’ve stopped enabling pedophiles, but it does appear from this document that they had a policy to handle matters of sexual malfeasance by clergy, and that it was to be done in “utter secrecy”.

And, this means what? Pope John XXIII and Cardinal Ottaviani sat down and said “lets make sure that in 40 years our Bishops can hideany and all cases of sexual abuse by priests, 'cause we’re just plain evil!”?

 

[pnewton]

My problem is with the 39 page document itself, that I actually sat down and read intently, and how it fits into 40 years of cover ups and silence from our Bishops.

The problem is that you are reading it with 40 years of hindsight. It was written for problems in the fifties. You are applying it to child sexual abuse when it was written about sexual solicitation which on occasion might include a minor in a religious vocation. The secrecy that is spoken of in such severe terms was intended for the protection of the minor. I will not say “child” because that is not the tone of the document. It does not seem to occur to the writer that this issue needed to be addressed, at least in 1962…