Sex crimes and the Vatican

[mom_07]

Good discussion. Does anyone have any comments about the other aspect of this BBC report (hit job) claiming that the Vatican is* hiding* child molesters in Rome? I know someone from England who is convinced that this is true. Anyone?

 

[pnewton]

I have A silly question for all on this forum ,If you was a victim of clerical abuse ,And you still had to live in exile 43 years after you abuse ended ,And you had a criminal record even though you had never commited a crime in your country of birth would you believe any one in the Catholic faith yours michael mcmanus ps and there is an arrest warrant out in the couutry of your birth

I do not understand the question. What do the actions of a single person or the calamities that befell one in life have to do with divine reality?

 

[michaelmac]

pnewton, It is a very simply question ,A child through no fault of is own is taken before a court and sentenced ,To an industrail school run by catholic clergy and is abused and battered so badly they brake his arm ,so the person escapes and comes to England ,He wants to see his family but finds out that an arrest warrent has been issued for his arrest ,In his own country he has a criminal record ,Even though he had done nothing wrong ,the only thing he did wrong was to escape from inhuman torture of children by the Catholic clergy in Ireland ,Tell me pnewton what other country makes children as young as 2 years old criminals

 

[pnewton]

,Tell me pnewton what other country makes children as young as 2 years old criminals

I am unaware of any. Is there really a country that has criminal law for babies?

BTW- It is not a simple question. In fact, as complex as this story is, I do not know that anyone can say what they would do without being in these shoes.

 

[michaelmac]

I am unaware of any. Is there really a country that has criminal law for babies?

BTW- It is not a simple question. In fact, as complex as this story is, I do not know that anyone can say what they would do without being in these shoes.

Yes pnewton there was a country and it was Ireland , If you was a child and you needed care ,you were taken before the courts and sentenced to be looked after by a religious order ,the only problem with it was from the day your were sentenced you had a criminal record ,The Catholic church the Irish government and the Irish president have refused to rescind those criminal records of children who had never commited any crime

 

[Pani_Rose]

It is interesting sites like these are showing up on the web, do we hear anything in the news about them. One abuse by a Catholic Clergy is one too many, but the media circus is not interested in tearing down anyone/anything but the Catholic Church.

Guess what Scripture says - “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Glory to God!
reformation.com/
stopbaptistpredators.org/

At least we have a central authority that is trying to do something about the problem, and is making great headway, praise the Lord!

 

[Sixtus]

The Catholic Church has always condemned any form of abuse. The previous and present Pope have been very active in rooting out offenders.

What is not being taken into account is that the percentage of priests who offend is very small, about as small as for any denomination. It is just that the Catholic Church gets the worst of the press.

Many alleged complaints have proven to be false. There was the classic case in the Sun newspaper a few years ago, which carried front page news of the scandal over several weeks. The ‘victims’ brought private law suits against the Church. It was all alleged to have taken place in one partucular school. As the school no longer existed, the local education authority had to pull out the records. It turned out that none of the complainants had ever been to that particular school.

The old School Registers held in the archives showed that not one ‘victim’ had ever been registed at the school or attended. In the light of this, they decided to abandon their claims for compensation. I do not recall ever reading a retraction printed in the press.

The other problem is that a lot of paedophiles deliberately and cleverly conned their way into seminaries, in order to get the opportunities to abuse. It has been proven that some candidates not only turned out to be non-catholic but some of them were aethiests.

How can the Church control for this. If someone is crooked enough to fraudulently obtain recommendations from their ‘alleged’ parish priest, it is very difficult to catch them all. This also accounts for some of the high drop-out rates at seminaries.

Another factor is that society punishes the victims of child abuse. It is a fact that many abusers are such because they have been abused. Psychologically they deal with it as children by encoding into their minds that ‘it is ok to be abused’. That saves them from madness. Problem is, they grow up still believing ‘it is ok’. We then turn around and punish them. What we should be doing is giving them the intense councilling they should have had from their own histories of abuse.

So, you see there is no simple answer and there are several reasons why there is so much about child abuse. Not all are genuine.

That does not excuse the victimizing effects it has on the children.

As part of preventing further abuse, it is necessary to council by telling them they should not repress it. That they have been abused, that it is wrong, that will cause more mental illness but reduce the likelihood of the victims becoming abusers themselves.

No easy answers.

 

[Sixtus]

The Catholic Church has always condemned any form of abuse.

In UK, there is zero tolerance of abuse. That is largely the response of the directions of John Paul 2, The appointments of Archbishops has been linked to their zero tolerance of child abuse.

There has also been various con-artists trying to ‘jump on the bandwagen’ by making false alegations in the hopes of getting compensation. There was the classic case published in a national newspaper over several weeks, making front page news.
It was alleged to have taken place at a school that no longer existed.

The records were thought no longer to exist either. WRONG! The local education authority kept them in their archives and when they were inspected to determine when the alleged ‘victims’ attended the school, it transpired that not one had ever registed at the school, much less attended. I do not recall reading of any retractions in the press.

Interestingly when this was put to the claimants, instead of challenging it, they all decided to withdraw their claims!! This sort of thing does not get published.

It is a fact that there is only a very small percentage of priests involved. About the same percentage of any denomination. Also, abuse in non-catholic churches, are often reported in the press as ‘catholic’ and ‘catholic priest implicated’! So the Church gets the blame even when the offenders are non-Catholic clergy,. That is because ‘catholic’ and ‘abuse’ sells. No one is interested in reading about 'pastor of the church of the Dutchelmsdisease. Catholic sells better.

Also not taken into account is that a lot of victims of child abuse internalise the abuse as a way of dealing with it, to prevent madness. Problem is once internalised, it remains there that ‘abuse is normal’. Victims then often go on to become abusers. That is a fact. I have seen records of both abusers and victims. They are often carbon copies of the other.

There has also been cases of non-catholics fraudulently conning their ways into seminaries [most get caught] in order to be in a postion of trust with children in order to abuse.

So, there are all sorts of explanations, that does not excuse a single act of victimizing behaviour and I am not trying to minimalize or trivialise the facts. It is just that the facts need a little clarification. Things are rarely as simple as they first appear.

The incidences are actually much fewer than is popularly imagined. Research showes ‘as per occupation’, Catholic Priests are still among the lowests incidences of risk to children, which is at variance with what the media would have you believe.

 

[michaelmac]

Sixtus wrote this ,In UK, there is zero tolerance of abuse. That is largely the response of the directions of John Paul 2, The appointments of Archbishops has been linked to their zero tolerance of child abuse, HOW CAN THIS STATMENT BE TRUE WHEN THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH IN THE UK COVERED UP ABUSE ,I HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND HOW THE CHURCH IN THE UK TREATS VICTIMS OF ABUSE ,ALSO IRELAND ,

 

[michaelmac]

SUBHUMAN is what is writen on the arrest warrant isued by the Irish Authorities for some one who escaped from being abused by Irish Catholic clergy

 

[ble]

Abuse is horrible…I have lived it. And those guilty of it should be punished, but understand this. When you have the TRUTH the evil one will attack it hard. If this was a perfect world the church would not have any problems. Unfortunately that is not the world we are living in.

God bless all

Bless you Maryam… I too am an abused victim when I was little by close friends of my family. The only way to go pass the hurt and the pain is to forgive. I get easily discouraged by the abuse scandal and each one I read about had me imagine that Christ is being scourged all over again… by the people he loved.

The abuse is terrible (my blood boils each time I read about it… not just in our church but in all institution) but once people see only the perpetrators as the church, it is easy to lose faith. It’s like seeing the church through the actions of Judas. Indeed, Satan does sow weed among the good seeds so that they both will grow up together. Since everyone belong to the body of the church, when one part aches, all parts aches.

Our church is learning and it is going through painful moments. I’m also a Catechist so I can tell you that our diocese in San Diego has implemented a child abuse prevention program where there is very little talk about it before. Give it some time. Most of the abuse happened a few decades ago in a time of “sexual liberation” and people are just learning about them now. The smoke of Satan has entered the church but give it some time, the Holy Spirit will purge it clean.

Will child abuse stop? Probably not but if all members of Christ’s church work together to make sure it doesn’t happen again where they are, we stand a good chance purging this evil not only from our church but for all institutions so that one day all children will be safe.

Warmest regards,
Ben

 

[rien]

The current issue of NOR has a piece on Randy Engel’s new book ‘The Rite of Sodomy: Homosexuality and the Roman Catholic Church’ which is very disconceriting. Even the out there NOR says the book is not for the faint of heart.Supposedly it has more than 4,000 footnotes and is extemely well documented.

In any case, one point the book apparently makes is that the pro-homosexual influence continues with the new Pope. Pointing out the promotions given to pro-gay bishops Levada, Wuerl and Niederauer.

I can attest to the latter. He has actively worked to circumvent the church’s opposition to gay adoption as featured in an articel in the current Catholic World Report and as covered in local Bay Area papers.

I know NOR is out there but the Engel book if true could be a bombshell.

 

[OriginalJS]

You just have to accept the fact that mistakes were made. The root of all this mess is dissent in church teachings and in the seminaries. Cardinal Ratzinger didn’t cover up the sex abuse scandal either. Which is a flat our lie.

I agree that he didn’t; nor did JPII. However, neither seemed to take it seriously. As witness, consider how Cardinal Bernard Law was honored when he left the US and went to Rome. I think the Vatican just didn’t appreciate the seriousness of the situation at the time.

 

[michaelmac]

I agree that he didn’t; nor did JPII. However, neither seemed to take it seriously. As witness, consider how Cardinal Bernard Law was honored when he left the US and went to Rome. I think the Vatican just didn’t appreciate the seriousness of the situation at the time.

Bones IV Says Ratzinger did not cover up the abuse of children ,there is only one way he can know this and if he can mind read

 

[teajay]

I’ve written on this topic before, and it comes up a lot. I hope some of you might find this post on my blog useful.

Crimen sollicitationis

 

[ritthichai]

Bones IV Says Ratzinger did not cover up the abuse of children ,there is only one way he can know this and if he can mind read

Perhaps the American courts will discover the truth:
cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=10381

 

[puppypatrol]

That document is flat out screwed up. The main concern isn’t the sensationalizing of the scandal all T.V. stations will do that, even one without lesbians running the show.

The main concern is actually reading that document and you can see in plain English how our Bishops and now Pope dealt unfairly and with no integrity sex crimes commited by the clergy. There’s insinuations to use fear on the victim to keep them silent, the document is sick. I can’t remain in a Church that thought the best way to deal with child rapists is scare them into silence and cover it up. This can’t be God’s Church when this is the mentality. I can’t give one more dime to this Church. This is very damaging to me.

Unfortunately, there were Bishops who did shift priests from one Church to another one and did in fact cover up. But the actions of a few doesn’t automatically speak for the whole does it? The Pope doesn’t have phycological powers. He did what he could. He made many reforms in the priesthood. The BBC is an embrassment and they really oughta put their money back in their pockets. The America media lost credibility with their virolent denunciation of the Passion of the Christ. Who are you to tell the pope how to do his job? I suppose you can do better. Answer that.

I’m not talking about a sensational report, I’m talking about the document in question, read it for yourself, it’s very disturbing.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/28_09_06_Crimen_english.pdf

I’m done I am out of this Church it is corrupt to the core, this is horrible. I have my son in Catholic school, my life revolves around daily Mass, Sunday Mass, this Church was my life.

Oh ye of little faith. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just once I would like to see one of the accused stand up and look the accuser in the eye and say “prove it”. The Bishops did the best they could with the information they had at the time, in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. That information was from psychologists and psychiatrists who declared those few who actually committed this act “cured” BEFORE they were sent to another parish. Is anyone suing these professionals? It was approx 1990 before they discovered pedophilia was not curable. I am also a firm believer in “false memories” and know the trouble they are causing. I also think a lot of these instances are being taken out of context. In an FBI report from 2005, 3 tenth of a percent of reported cases were committed by a combination of persons known to the victim which includes pastors/priests, doctors, some teachers, etc… while 56 percent were perpertrated by close family members, fathers, mothers, grandparents, uncles, siblings, etc… What is wrong with this picture? This is just making me crazy!!! I’m not saying that most of these victims weren’t abused but there may be a mistake in just WHO did the abusing. I also know of several instances of people lying about who abused them, one of these people I know personally and her story keeps changing depending on who she is talking to.

 

[universalist]

Wow! It seems a lot of folks are in complete denial about this document and it,s implications.I had always been told that “the gates of hell” would never prevail against the “One true Church” tell that to the abused victims who have indeed seen the gates of hell descend upon them on this earth theu the cover ups and distortions of the "one true church"and thru those who are christ,s represenatives on earth, disgusting!

 

[cthulhubryan]

The most interesting statistic you will notice is not once were authorities notified in over 50 years and thousands of cases. Not once?

I wonder if this is true, not once? Well maybe.

It is not THAT surprising. My wife and I are foster parents (in the same diocese[though we are not catholic] where the abuse in the current suit happened) and we know of many cases of abuse by many different people that are never reported. Child sexual abuse is one of the most under-reported crimes in America.

Many many times even when a report is made, nothing happens. Authorities make the assumption that the child will not make a good witness and never bother to charge the molester. My son and youngest daughter are brother and sister that we adopted from foster care. They were abused (along with their older brother) and the two boys were sexually assaulted by their father. How sick is that?!? But he was never charged because the state felt that A) the kids would not make good witnesses. B) it would be worse for the kids to have to relive the pain and C) “Isn’t it just better to let them forget and move on?”

So you cannot make the assumption that it was unreported, you can only assume that any reports were not acted upon.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Saint_Michael

The most interesting statistic you will notice is not once were authorities notified in over 50 years and thousands of cases. Not once?

This was common for all sex abuse and rape, back 40 years ago and even as early as 20 years ago.

The stigma of rape or sex abuse that the victim had to live with, was debilitating.

I remember a girl that was in my CYC, who was raped by a man, as she was on her way home from her after school job. The girl ended up in mental institutions for most of her young adult life.

So, the general approach back in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s, was to protect the victim, the authorities kept it quiet. This was not just the churches, but public schools and secular organizations as well.

Jim