Sexual concessions to married couples and homosexuality

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Fpt, I dont know if you understand the point. You understand who is Karol Wojtyla right? If there is something about the church that he needed to know (for the book he wrote specifically about the relations of people in marriage), I assure you, he knew about it.

FPT, You say that as catholics we have to fight against those ideas, those heresies, What are you saying, that what I quoted about the book are ideas that we have to be careful about, also? Could you explain this to me, because I want to know clearly which are the ideas that you think we have to be careful on, and if you are referring to all my quoted paragraphs, or just the stuff you posted?
Each catholic has the moral obligation to fight the official heresies and ideologies that were and denounced and banned by the Teaching of Catholic Roman Church: all the doctrines and all the practices.
For example: The Encratism of the marital act; The Manicheism of the marital act; The Catharism of the marital act; The Jansenism of the marital act; The Fideism of the marital act; The Quietism of the marital act; The english Puritanism of the marital act; The american Puritanism of the marital act; The Pharisianism of the marital act; The Fideism of the marital act and of the Quietism of the marital act; the doctrinal refusal of the existence of right to the body, of right on the body and of the right of the body for each member of the couple, the doctrinal refusal of the existence of four ends of the marital act;

Each catholic has the moral obligation to avoid and to denounce some doctrines and practices that are not heresies or ideologies officially banned, per se, but that are very near, via the catholic true logic. In reality, they are unofficially banned, but they are morally wrong.

For instance:
1.The Externalism of the marital act, the Judgmentalism of the marital act, the Presumptionism of the near occasion of sin and the Pessimism of the marital act are linked to the Pharisianism of the marital act, to Jansenism of the marital act, to American Puritanism of the marital act and to the English Puritanism of the marital act;
2.The Prudism of the marital act are linked to American Puritanism of the marital act and to the english Puritanism of the marital act;
3.**The Quiverfullism of the marital act the absolute procreationism of the marital act are cousins of the Fideism of the marital act and of the Quietism of the marital act;
4.The primary anti-temporalism of the marital act, the primary anti-personalism of the marital act, the primary anti-phenomenologism of the marital act, the primary anti-sexologism of the marital act, the primary sexual anti-alteritism of conjugal act, the primary sexual anti-complementarism of the conjugal act and the Reductionism of the marital act to a simple coitus are linked to the refusal of the objective realistic personalist and phenomenological philosophy (metaphysics, teleology, phenomenology, personalism, natural sciences, the realism, the good rationalism, the catholic sexology, the moderation, the rules of Reason, the good sense).
5.
The doctrinal refusal of the existence of rights to some foreplay to give and to receive, in the context of the marital act and the doctrinal refusal of the existence of rights to some sexual foreplay to give and to receive, in the context of the marital act does not respect the Canon Law and thus the existence of right to the body, of right on the body and of the right of the body for each member of the couple.
6. The Ronald L. Contism Jr of the acception of the definition of the sexual sin of masturbation by hands, by fingers, by tongue and by mouth, in the context of the marital act is a wrong reading of the catholic definition of the sin of masturbation and the negation of temporality, of the phenomenality, of carnality… of the marital act:
a disease of the intelligence.


Saint John Paul II has to be read with all the global logic of the Catholic teaching, in the details with all the subleties (materiality and immateriality). Of course, I am not against this Pope, but the immaterial acpect of this topic has to be completed by the material aspect. This Pope talks about natural virtues and supranatural virtues, the immaterial aspect that is very essential and important. As catholic, the material aspect has to be respected.
 
Each catholic **has the moral obligation to fight the official heresies and ideologies that **were **** and are denounced and banned by the Teaching of Catholic Roman Church: all the doctrines and all the practices.
For example: The Encratism of the marital act; The Manicheism of the marital act; The Catharism of the marital act; The Jansenism of the marital act; The Fideism of the marital act; The Quietism of the marital act; The english Puritanism of the marital act; The american Puritanism of the marital act; The Pharisianism of the marital act; The Fideism of the marital act and of the Quietism of the marital act; the doctrinal refusal of the existence of right to the body, of right on the body and of the right of the body for each member of the couple, the doctrinal refusal of the existence of four ends of the marital act;

Each catholic has the moral obligation to avoid and to denounce some doctrines and practices that are not heresies or ideologies officially banned, per se, but that are very near, via the catholic true logic. In reality, they are unofficially banned, but they are morally wrong.

For instance:
1.The Externalism of the marital act, the Judgmentalism of the marital act, the Presumptionism of the near occasion of sin and the Pessimism of the marital act are linked to the Pharisianism of the marital act, to Jansenism of the marital act, to American Puritanism of the marital act and to the English Puritanism of the marital act;
2.The Prudism of the marital act are linked to American Puritanism of the marital act and to the english Puritanism of the marital act;
3.**The Quiverfullism of the marital act the absolute procreationism of the marital act are cousins of the Fideism of the marital act and of the Quietism of the marital act;
4.The primary anti-temporalism of the marital act, the primary anti-personalism of the marital act, the primary anti-phenomenologism of the marital act, the primary anti-sexologism of the marital act, the primary sexual anti-alteritism of conjugal act, the primary sexual anti-complementarism of the conjugal act and the Reductionism of the marital act to a simple coitus are linked to the refusal of the objective realistic personalist and phenomenological philosophy (metaphysics, teleology, phenomenology, personalism, natural sciences, the realism, the good rationalism, the catholic sexology, the moderation, the rules of Reason, the good sense).
5.
The doctrinal refusal of the existence of rights to some foreplay to give and to receive, in the context of the marital act and the doctrinal refusal of the existence of rights to some sexual foreplay to give and to receive, in the context of the marital act does not respect the Canon Law and thus the existence of right to the body, of right on the body and of the right of the body for each member of the couple.
6. The Ronald L. Contism Jr of the acception of the definition of the sexual sin of masturbation by hands, by fingers, by tongue and by mouth, in the context of the marital act is a wrong reading of the catholic definition of the sin of masturbation and the negation of temporality, of the phenomenality, of carnality… of the marital act:
a disease of the intelligence.


Saint John Paul II has to be read with all the global logic of the Catholic teaching, in the details with all the subleties (materiality and immateriality). Of course, I am not against this Pope, but the immaterial acpect of this topic has to be completed by the material aspect. This Pope talks about natural virtues and supranatural virtues, the immaterial aspect that is very essential and important. As catholic, the material aspect has to be respected.
The doctrinal refusal by a spouse of giving or of receiving sexual caresses, by the different human forms, on the body of the other like sexual foreplay, via the invoking of the catholic moral, is totally unfair. Even more, it is a disease of the intelligence. These persons are not ready for the marriage. ***The doctrinal unilateral refusal ***of giving or of receiving them is totally unacceptable: lack of conjugal trust, of conjugal confidence, of conjugal love, of conjugal donation of body and of conjugal reception of body. In the sexual vows of the wedding, by advance, each one agrees with the existence of sexual foreplay.
 
Fpt, I dont know if you understand the point. You understand who is Karol Wojtyla right? If there is something about the church that he needed to know (for the book he wrote specifically about the relations of people in marriage), I assure you, he knew about it.

FPT, You say that as catholics we have to fight against those ideas, those heresies, What are you saying, that what I quoted about the book are ideas that we have to be careful about, also? Could you explain this to me, because I want to know clearly which are the ideas that you think we have to be careful on, and if you are referring to all my quoted paragraphs, or just the stuff you posted?
It is good thing to quote many sentences coming from a holy thinker, from a holy philosopher and from a holy theologian (a Saint Pope), but after it is very relevant of summing up this thought by giving some practical conclusions for the life of couples* (the real practice of the conjugal act, the real sexual life of couples, in concreto).*

I ask you questions and you do not answer.

Do you deny the right to get the pleasures, in the respect of the moral order of the human nature??
  1. The marital act is done for 4 ends:
    The expressing of the conjugal love???
    The fact of being a procreator, the participation to the human creation, make babies, to be open to the life???
    The fact of improving the bonding of the conjugal love???
    The fact of avoiding the wrong effects of the concupiscence: here, if one spouse refuses and denies, doctrinally speaking, the physical rights of the other, the great risks are the adultery, the masturbation, the bad feelings, the conjugal sexual frustration without just reason. Yes, each spouse is the “keeper angel” of the sexual chastity of the other???
  2. The Song of Songs talks about many sexual caresses and sensual acts for the conjugal lovers???
  3. Are you against the notion of the marital debt with all the moral regime that she implies? The right to the body, the right on the body, the right of the body, the donation / the reception of bodies, the sexual rights on the body of the other, the wife’s body is the husband’s body, the husband’s body is the wife’s body, the sexual privileges of each one on the body of the other, the rights to give conjugal sexual pleasures and conjugal orgasms to the other, the rights to receive conjugal sexual pleasures and conjugal orgasms from and by the other. The marital debt is one of elements of the marriage. The marriage implies many sexual vows, in favor of the other???
  4. Do you deny the physical rights of each one on the body of the other during a session of the marital act? Do you refuse the existence of those sexual carnal rights to give and to receive, in love and the tenderness during a session of the marital act? Do you support to the acception of the definition of sexual sin of masturbation seen at the manner of Ronald Conte Jr?
  5. The preliminaries and the sexual preliminaries to give or to receive, in the human fashion, with sexual cooperation, in the context of the marital act, are:
    Some acts of the conjugal love?? Some acts of the conjugal tenderness??
    Some acts for expressing the conjugal love??? Some acts of conjugal friendship???Some acts of conjugal faith??? Some acts of conjugal trust?? Some acts of conjugal confidence??? Some acts expressing the donation of the body?? Some acts expressing the reception of body??? Some acts refusing to promote the doctrinal reductionism of the marital act to a simple coitus???
  6. The fact of neglecting his wife, sexually speaking, without fair reason is morally wrong, in two levels, in the quantity and the quality??? The fact of neglecting her husband, sexually speaking, without fair reason is morally wrong, in two levels, in the quantity and the quality???
Could you give your answers, in link with your understanding of the Catholic Teaching?* Do you deny the right for each couple to find out* their own conjugal erotism that respects the moral order of the marriage and of the conjugal act?* Yes? No?
 
Fpt, also, I think it would be helpful if you posted what is love and tenderness for you?
The reserved acts to spouses have to be practiced, in the conjugal love and conjugal tenderness. The wife has to agree with the caresses coming from her husband and the husband has to agree with the caresses coming from his wife. A wife has to say yes to receive the male caresses of her husband that are masculine, lovable and tender. A husband has to say yes to receive the female caresses of his wife that are masculine, lovable and tender.*** By nature, the caresses coming from males are not the caresses coming from females. Each one has to agree with those differences. If each spouse does not understand this situation linked to the sexual alterity and the sexual complementarity, that is a great issue***. The normal masculine pulsion is not the normal female pulsion. The normal masculine desire is not the normal female desire. *Each one has to agree with the normality of the other. After, each one has to try to please and to satisfy the other. *

Conjugal love means *a mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal, equitable, reasonable, tender and lovable submission. *About the conjugal act, there is a sexual yoke between wife and husband. Today, I say yes to your sexual will, tomorrow, you say yes to my sexual will. Efforts of doing or of not doing and sacrifices of doing or of not doing.
 
The reserved acts to spouses have to be practiced, in the conjugal love and conjugal tenderness. The wife has to agree with the caresses coming from her husband and the husband has to agree with the caresses coming from his wife. A wife has to say yes to receive the male caresses of her husband that are masculine, lovable and tender. A husband has to say yes to receive the female caresses of his wife that are** feminine**, lovable and tender.*** By nature, the caresses coming from males are not the caresses coming from females. Each one has to agree with those differences. If each spouse does not understand this situation linked to the sexual alterity and the sexual complementarity, that is a great issue***. The normal masculine pulsion is not the normal female pulsion. The normal masculine desire is not the normal female desire. *Each one has to agree with the normality of the other. After, each one has to try to please and to satisfy the other. *

Conjugal love means *a mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal, equitable, reasonable, tender and lovable submission. *About the conjugal act, there is a sexual yoke between wife and husband. Today, I say yes to your sexual will, tomorrow, you say yes to my sexual will. Efforts of doing or of not doing and sacrifices of doing or of not doing.
The masculine tenderness is not the feminine tenderness.

After, there are the sexual normal and legitimate fantasies of each one for avoiding the conjugal sexual routine. The sexual abnormal and illegitimate fantasies of each one have to be avoided. The masculine ardor is not the feminine ardor, each has to agree with that, has to understand that, and to agree with the fact of pleasing and to satisfying the other, if it is possible. *** " Today, I say yes to your sexual will, tomorrow, you say yes to my sexual will".*** Efforts of doing or of not doing and sacrifices of doing or of not doing.
 
If it is from the Church, it cannot be disturbing. I am not familiar with any such list from the Church.
The sexual vows of the catholic wedding imply the fact of being or of trying to be, for each member of the couple,** a good lover** (Song of Songs), in the human fashion, in the respect of the moral order of the conjugal act.

A list of actions or intentions, some examples,***, *all ****in the respect of the moral order of the conjugal act.

To like; To love; To talk; To discuss; To debate; To inform; To share; To request; To question; To ask; To wait; To expect; To propose; To be active; To be passive; To undress; To be naked; To trust; To permit; To grant; To submit; To obey; To offer; To sacrify; To see; To look at; To stare; To show; To hear; To listen; To touch; To test; To try; To taste; To attempt; To give; To receive; To donate; To grab; To caress; To kiss;To massage; To lick; To suck; To stimulate; To arouse; To lubricate; To enter; To penetrate; To move; To contract; To control; To master; To be aware; To be conscient; To please; To satisfy; To pleasure; To orgasm; To ejaculate; To make love; To possess; to be possessed; To teach; To learn; To feel; To hope; To desire; To will, to wish; To want;

If you are disturbed by this short list, it is a great issue, in my humble opinion!!!
 
If it is from the Church, it cannot be disturbing. I am not familiar with any such list from the Church.
The conjugal erotism of the union of bodies between husband and wife, in the human fashion, with sexual cooperation, that respects the moral order of this particular act, is morally good. The will of trying to intensify the conjugal sexual pleasures and the conjugal orgasms, in the conjugal tenderness and in the conjugal love, in the context of the marital act, is not morally wrong, per se. The will of avoiding the conjugal sexual routine is a good idea within the couple.

What is that conjugal erotism? That is the question!!! Each couple must search it and each couple must create it: liberty and creativity in the respect of the moral order!!! In reality, there are the normal and legitimate fantasies and the wrong fantasies. How to identify the good one from the wrong one??? What are the good criterias??? In reading the Holy bible, you can find out some* information on the Holy Erotism of the union of bodies between husband and wife.* In the Holy Bible, there are sentences focusing *on the reserved acts to spouses. *
 
The sexual vows of the catholic wedding imply the fact of being or of trying to be, for each member of the couple,** a good lover** (Song of Songs), in the human fashion, in the respect of the moral order of the conjugal act.

A list of actions or intentions, some examples,***, *all ****in the respect of the moral order of the conjugal act.

To like; To love; To talk; To discuss; To debate; To inform; To share; To request; To question; To ask; To wait; To expect; To propose; To be active; To be passive; To undress; To be naked; To trust; To permit; To grant; To submit; To obey; To offer; To sacrify; To see; To look at; To stare; To show; To hear; To listen; To touch; To test; To try; To taste; To attempt; To give; To receive; To donate; To grab; To caress; To kiss;To massage; To lick; To suck; To stimulate; To arouse; To lubricate; To enter; To penetrate; To move; To contract; To control; To master; To be aware; To be conscient; To please; To satisfy; To pleasure; To orgasm; To ejaculate; To make love; To possess; to be possessed; To teach; To learn; To feel; To hope; To desire; To will, to wish; To want;

If you are disturbed by this short list, it is a great issue, in my humble opinion!!!
I did not say I was disturbed by anything. That is not what I said.
 
fpt,
What I have against your view (continues being the same thing), is that you want to give rights (forced rules) to love. And for me that cant be done, worst if its for the sexual sphere. And you even want to talk about the morality of it, when there is no morality for sexual things as morality is for what’s right to the person, because we want the best for him, as he is that kind of good. Sexual things bring pleasure and even when you think of affectivity, if it is not guided correctly it is bad for the person.

The sexual sphere lies on the senses and do not tend to love because its goal is procreation. That’s why it was necessary to state the goal of the sexual drive, and that it was not love. Because sexual intercourse do not tend to love, if you do not love the person; it procreates and gives pleasure from the senses.

That’s why there was a need to state the difference between the profiles of love. One is the physical in some sense but also carries affectivity (because it comes from the person of the other sex). Love in the objective profile is in the will, so it’s more kind of a “mentality” (but that force you to act). That is why procreation as such is not yet sufficient in the personal level (that’s enough in the animal world), and because the will is found in the interiority of the person, it has to be permeated in its conscience(to force you to act to that aspect). This happens correctly if one possesses chastity, temperance, self mastery, and love virtue.

The danger of the body is strong, because the concupiscence with its affections has the power to go into the will, and when it goes into the will the person will be guided by the concupiscence and not by true love. But keep in mind that people can state and feel, that, that love (the one from the concupiscence) is real “love”. It will go in the will if you are not conscious, or know about it but don’t act against it (that’s the way it is, it is its nature in a sense). That’s why the objective profile of love is a decision, a constant decision, and that takes it to the personal level.

So this is why is important to understand what is real love and how do we get it. The way we get that objective true love is by getting the subjective part controlled completely (or in some sense out of the way with chastity), that way your actions will be guided correctly.
So if you give rights (forced ones) to love on the sexual aspects you are opening a door where you are saying that someone has to do something because love is that, and we know for a fact that love is not sexual acts. And when you force on them you are basically forcing on the pleasure of the acts (as that is why you like them), and not necessarily on the union of persons (which is what love is). Sexual intercourse reacts on the senses and the outcome is pleasure. As we said before pleasure is subjective because it depends on the individual, and you cannot put a norm on this kind of good. Because when you put a norm on it, there can be no way of transcending what is good only for me. As pleasure is not a supra subjective or transsubjective good.

Therefore love can only be a norm to the affirmation of the value of the person (that instruction is universal, the person is not subjective).

The reaction to the value of the person cannot be something as direct as the reaction to the sexual value, because the person is much more than that.

The value of the person is linked with the whole being of the person, and not with sex, for sex is merely a property of a being.

That is why marriage is for procreation and a union of persons, to be assured that the sensual sphere is not out of context or exaggerated. And for this to happen it needs the correct love, love virtue with all the responsibilities that this virtue brings with it.

About the Song of Solomon, you see polygamy in the old testament but that doesn’t mean its ok. The context has to be analyzed. You see then, that affectivity and sensuality that is not correctly “tamed” will not tend to love, and is something to be corrected. The human body gives concupiscence of the flesh, we know that (it is desirable, that is in fact where the danger resides), and it’s a danger if you do not control it. The way to control it is with the affirmation of the value of the person.

Affections not just come from sexual intercourse, affections also come from the person of the other sex that are not related with the body. Tenderness for example. Affectivity is not for sexual stimulation, affectivity is for the mood of closeness of persons. Sensuality and affectivity are two aspects, very different, and are totally different from the objective profile.

The approach is not rights (forced rules) to sexual acts, is about acting the objective profile of love. The point is not affections from arousal, the point is to feel truly loved and love truly.

My understanding of your views conclude that you think that true love comes just from sexual satisfaction, and for me it is more important to learn to truly love first (before sexual intercourse, without sexual intercourse), so that afterwards sex will be an additional gift that comes with loving the person. This way sex will not guide me but the true love for the person will. You will want the good for your spouse and viceversa and feel the happiness regardless of the sexual pleasure (giving sex the proper position).
For me sexual rules means that the sexual sphere is so important that you need them. From that perspective, love for me is put on a utilitarian way, and not on a personal level. As love is not about forcing someone to act in a sexual way.
 
fpt,
What I have against your view (continues being the same thing), is that you want to give rights (forced rules) to love. And for me that cant be done, worst if its for the sexual sphere. And you even want to talk about the morality of it, when there is no morality for sexual things as morality is for what’s right to the person, because we want the best for him, as he is that kind of good. Sexual things bring pleasure and even when you think of affectivity, if it is not guided correctly it is bad for the person.

The sexual sphere lies on the senses and do not tend to love because its goal is procreation. That’s why it was necessary to state the goal of the sexual drive, and that it was not love. Because sexual intercourse do not tend to love, if you do not love the person; it procreates and gives pleasure from the senses.

That’s why there was a need to state the difference between the profiles of love. One is the physical in some sense but also carries affectivity (because it comes from the person of the other sex). Love in the objective profile is in the will, so it’s more kind of a “mentality” (but that force you to act). That is why procreation as such is not yet sufficient in the personal level (that’s enough in the animal world), and because the will is found in the interiority of the person, it has to be permeated in its conscience(to force you to act to that aspect). This happens correctly if one possesses chastity, temperance, self mastery, and love virtue.

The danger of the body is strong, because the concupiscence with its affections has the power to go into the will, and when it goes into the will the person will be guided by the concupiscence and not by true love. But keep in mind that people can state and feel, that, that love (the one from the concupiscence) is real “love”. It will go in the will if you are not conscious, or know about it but don’t act against it (that’s the way it is, it is its nature in a sense). That’s why the objective profile of love is a decision, a constant decision, and that takes it to the personal level.

So this is why is important to understand what is real love and how do we get it. The way we get that objective true love is by getting the subjective part controlled completely (or in some sense out of the way with chastity), that way your actions will be guided correctly.
So if you give rights (forced ones) to love on the sexual aspects you are opening a door where you are saying that someone has to do something because love is that, and we know for a fact that love is not sexual acts. And when you force on them you are basically forcing on the pleasure of the acts (as that is why you like them), and not necessarily on the union of persons (which is what love is). Sexual intercourse reacts on the senses and the outcome is pleasure. As we said before pleasure is subjective because it depends on the individual, and you cannot put a norm on this kind of good. Because when you put a norm on it, there can be no way of transcending what is good only for me. As pleasure is not a supra subjective or transsubjective good.

Therefore love can only be a norm to the affirmation of the value of the person (that instruction is universal, the person is not subjective).

The reaction to the value of the person cannot be something as direct as the reaction to the sexual value, because the person is much more than that.

The value of the person is linked with the whole being of the person, and not with sex, for sex is merely a property of a being.

That is why marriage is for procreation and a union of persons, to be assured that the sensual sphere is not out of context or exaggerated. And for this to happen it needs the correct love, love virtue with all the responsibilities that this virtue brings with it.

About the Song of Solomon, you see polygamy in the old testament but that doesn’t mean its ok. The context has to be analyzed. You see then, that affectivity and sensuality that is not correctly “tamed” will not tend to love, and is something to be corrected. The human body gives concupiscence of the flesh, we know that (it is desirable, that is in fact where the danger resides), and it’s a danger if you do not control it. The way to control it is with the affirmation of the value of the person.

In the vows of the marriage, each one consents to love the other. The conjugal love is an act of will, that is one of ends of catholic marriage. Thus, we can say that the conjugal love is a moral obligation for each one.

In the catholicism, the conjugal morality has some immaterial aspects and some material aspects coming from the institution of the marriage wanted by God.* All action is not morally good, always, even if each spouse agrees with.* The good things, in function of circumstances, and the wrong things, always and per se: if you do not agree with this system of thinking, you do not respect the fundamental principles of the catholic morality.

The ends of the marriage and of the marital act are 4. Do you know that?*** Each time, there is a concomitance between them. ****The conjugal act is not, only, for the procreation. *Per se , the conjugal pleasures are morally good, they are means, gifts, joys, subjective purposes and objective goals. Each one has the moral right to expect to receive and giving conjugal pleasures. The unilateral refusal of being a good lover and the unilateral refusal of practicing the conjugal act without good reason are morally unfair and morally wrong: it is against the conjugal justice.

Each one is the keeper angel of the chastity of the other because of the sexual.concupiscence. The title of this thread is linked to the material aspects of the marital act, you make a focus on the immaterial aspects, it is very good, but you forget the material aspects. Be careful, you are not an angel.
 
edlinked,

A particular reading of documents from the Pope John Paul II, in reality, via strange interpretations by the forgetting of the global logic of the catholic teaching is dangerous, angelic, and not in link with the real world of catholic couples.

It is good thing to quote many sentences coming from a holy thinker, from a holy philosopher and from a holy theologian (a Saint Pope), but after it is very relevant of summing up this thought by giving some practical conclusions for the life of couples (the real practice of the conjugal act, the real sexual life of couples, in concreto).

May you answer to my questions, please?

Do you deny the right to get the pleasures, in the respect of the moral order of the human nature??
  1. The marital act is done for 4 ends:
    The expressing of the conjugal love???
    The fact of being a procreator, the participation to the human creation, make babies, to be open to the life???
    The fact of improving the bonding of the conjugal love???
    The fact of avoiding the wrong effects of the concupiscence: here, if one spouse refuses and denies, doctrinally speaking, the physical rights of the other, the great risks are the adultery, the masturbation, the bad feelings, the conjugal sexual frustration without just reason. Yes, each spouse is the “keeper angel” of the sexual chastity of the other???
  2. The Song of Songs talks about many sexual caresses and sensual acts for the conjugal lovers???
  3. Are you against the notion of the marital debt with all the moral regime that she implies? The right to the body, the right on the body, the right of the body, the donation / the reception of bodies, the sexual rights on the body of the other, the wife’s body is the husband’s body, the husband’s body is the wife’s body, the sexual privileges of each one on the body of the other, the rights to give conjugal sexual pleasures and conjugal orgasms to the other, the rights to receive conjugal sexual pleasures and conjugal orgasms from and by the other. The marital debt is one of elements of the marriage. The marriage implies many sexual vows, in favor of the other???
  4. Do you deny the physical rights of each one on the body of the other during a session of the marital act? Do you refuse the existence of those sexual carnal rights to give and to receive, in love and the tenderness during a session of the marital act? Do you support to the acception of the definition of sexual sin of masturbation seen at the manner of Ronald Conte Jr?
  5. The preliminaries and the sexual preliminaries to give or to receive, in the human fashion, with sexual cooperation, in the context of the marital act, are:
    Some acts of the conjugal love?? Some acts of the conjugal tenderness??
    Some acts for expressing the conjugal love??? Some acts of conjugal friendship???Some acts of conjugal faith??? Some acts of conjugal trust?? Some acts of conjugal confidence??? Some acts expressing the donation of the body?? Some acts expressing the reception of body??? Some acts refusing to promote the doctrinal reductionism of the marital act to a simple coitus???
  6. The fact of neglecting his wife, sexually speaking, without fair reason is morally wrong, in two levels, in the quantity and the quality??? The fact of neglecting her husband, sexually speaking, without fair reason is morally wrong, in two levels, in the quantity and the quality???
    **
    Could you give your answers, in link with your understanding of the Catholic Teaching?** Do you deny the right for each couple to find out their own conjugal erotism that respects the moral order of the marriage and of the conjugal act? Yes? No?
 
edlinked,

In the marriage, each member is in a particular state, he is husband and she is wife. Those words have specific dimensions and some particular meanings. By nature, the human being is sexed and potentially sexual for the conjugal act. Each human is composed by a soul, by a heart and by a body, with a sexuation. The male sexuation and the female sexuation still exist, that is a deep reality: the dual humanity without opposition, but in the sexual difference, in the sexual alterity and in the sexual complementarity. The ends of marriage are four. The articulation, between them, is not so easy. The theological debates are strong. The organic development of the understanding of the mystery of marriage and of the conjugal act without opposition between the Holy Bible, the Tradition, the Catholic Magisterium, the Canon Law and the Catholic Philosophy. The moral order of the marriage and of the conjugal act is immaterial and material: an essential mixity. You are a human being with a soul, a heart and a body touched by the wrong effects of the concupiscence, as everybody. The angelism is not normal. Yes, in the marriage each one has rights, obligations and duties.

Do you deny the existence of the sexed and sexual moral order of the formation of marriage? Do you deny the existence of the sexed and sexual moral order of the use of theconjugal act?
 
The enemies of the conjugal sexuality are:
1.the misunderstandings on the maternity;
2.the misunderstandings on the paternity;
3.the wrong views of spirituality;
4.the wrong views of the conjugal chastity;

Some wives use the spirituality and the motherhood, in order to justify the refusal of the practice the conjugal sex. Some husbands use the spirituality and the fatherhood, in order to justify the refusal of the practice the conjugal sex. Be careful, the spirituality, the maternity and the paternity do not imply the refusal of the marital act. The false devotions, the fatherhood, the motherhood, the wrong acceptions of the spirituality and the wrong views of the conjugal chastity are dangerous for the conjugal sex. The first devotions are the spouse and the conjugal debt. Before all, in the marriage, we are spouses, wife and husband, and not a single person, not a nun and not a monk. Each one has to respect his / her conjugal state, otherwise that is a great problematic.

My view is quite canonical. Today, the notion of marital debt is refused and hated, inside as outside the Roman Catholic Church. The right to the body, the right of the body, and the right on the body still exist. This type of refusal is morally wrong and a great error. A refusal of those notions has effects on the validity of marriage and on the morality of the union of bodies.
 
Corrections:
The enemies of the conjugal sexuality are:
1.the misunderstandings on the maternity;
2.the misunderstandings on the paternity;
3.the wrong views of spirituality;
4.the wrong views of the conjugal chastity;

Some wives use the spirituality and the motherhood, in order to justify the refusal of the practice of the conjugal sex. Some husbands use the spirituality and the fatherhood, in order to justify the refusal of the practice of the conjugal sex. Be careful, the spirituality, the wrong views of the maternity and the wrong views of the paternity do not imply the refusal of the marital act. The false devotions, the fatherhood, the motherhood, the wrong acceptions of the spirituality and the wrong views of the conjugal chastity can and are dangerous for the conjugal sex. The first devotions are the spouse and the conjugal debt. Before all, in the marriage, we are spouses, wife and husband, and not a single person, not a nun and not a monk. Each one has to respect his / her conjugal state, otherwise that is a great problematic.

My view is quite canonical. Today, the notion of marital debt is refused and hated, inside as outside the Roman Catholic Church. The right to the body, the right of the body, and the right on the body still exist. This type of refusal is morally wrong and a great error. A refusal of those notions has effects on the validity of marriage and on the morality of the union of bodies.
The Canon Law has as sources the natural moral law, the revealed anthropology, the Holy Bible, the Holy Tradition, the Divine law and the global Catholic Magisterium. By definition, we use the canon law and the system of the moral and of the ethics when there are difficulties in order to find out solutions. What is wrong? Who is wrong? Yes, the marriage has many requirements, obligations, duties and rights.
 
All in the respect of the moral order of the marriage and of the conjugal act.

In the marriage concerning the conjugal act:

The wife is the* " New Eve of her Man "* and the "* Saint Mary-Magdalena of her husband "*, I mean: the Female, the Fiancée, the Bride, the Sweetheart, the Love, the Mistress, the Lover, the Beloved, the Muse, the Friend, the Best-friend, the Girlfriend, the Female Helper, the Female Soul-Mate, the Female Companion, the Female Partner, the Associate, the Female Educator, the Female Teacher, the Female Professor, the Female Thinker, the Female Philosopher, the Schoolgirl, the Pupil, the Student, the Female Follower, the Female Opposite Number, the Female Alter Ego, the Female Alterity, the Female Complementarity, the Princess, the Queen, the Doctress, the Female Nurse, the Female Guide of her Husband and the Person who reveals in him, his part of femininity and helps his masculinity. The married female, who is the wife, has to understand the normal sexuality of her male: wife is the teacher of the sexuality of her husband, she is also the professor of the sexuality of her husband, and then she is the doctress and the master of love of the sexuality of her husband.

===== She is under the conjugal submission of her husband.

The married man is the* " New Adam of his Woman "* and the " Holy Beloved of his wife ", I mean: the Male, the Fiancé, the Bridegroom, the Sweetheart, the Love, the Lover, the Master, the Beloved, the Pygmalion, the Friend, the Best-friend, the boyfriend, the Male Helper, the Female Soul-Mate, the Female Companion, the Male Partner, the Associate, the Male Educator, the Male Teacher, the Male Professor, the Male Thinker, the Male Philosopher, the Schoolboy, the Pupil, the Student, the Male Follower, the Male Opposite Number, the Male Alterity, the Male Complementarity, the Prince, the King, the Doctor, the Male Nurse, the Male Guide of his Wife and the Person who reveals in her, her part of masculinity and helps her feminity. The married male, who is the husband, has to understand the normal sexuality of his female: husband is the teacher of the sexuality of his wife, he is also the professor of the sexuality of his wife, and then he is the doctor and master of love of the sexuality of his wife.

===== He is under the conjugal submission of her husband.

The sexual yoke and the sexual submission in the catholic sense still exist.
 
Corrections
All in the respect of the moral order of the marriage and of the conjugal act.

In the marriage concerning the conjugal act:

The wife is the* " New Eve of her Man "* and the "* Saint Mary-Magdalena of her husband "*, I mean: the Female, the Fiancée, the Bride, the Sweetheart, the Love, the Mistress, the Lover, the Beloved, the Muse, the Friend, the Best-friend, the Girlfriend, the Female Helper, the Female Soul-Mate, the Female Companion, the Female Partner, the Associate, the Female Educator, the Female Teacher, the Female Professor, the Female Thinker, the Female Philosopher, the Schoolgirl, the Pupil, the Student, the Female Follower, the Female Opposite Number, the Female Alter Ego, the Female Alterity, the Female Complementarity, the Princess, the Queen, the Doctress, the Female Nurse, the Female Guide of her Husband and the Person who reveals in him, his part of femininity and helps his masculinity. The married female, who is the wife, has to understand the normal sexuality of her male: wife is the teacher of the sexuality of her husband, she is also the professor of the sexuality of her husband, and then she is the doctress and the master of love of the sexuality of her husband.

===== She is under the conjugal submission of her husband.

The married man is the* " New Adam of his Woman "* and the " Holy Beloved of his wife ", I mean: the Male, the Fiancé, the Bridegroom, the Sweetheart, the Love, the Lover, the Master, the Beloved, the Pygmalion, the Friend, the Best-friend, the boyfriend, the Male Helper, the Female Soul-Mate, the Female Companion, the Male Partner, the Associate, the Male Educator, the Male Teacher, the Male Professor, the Male Thinker, the Male Philosopher, the Schoolboy, the Pupil, the Student, the Male Follower, the Male Opposite Number, the Male Alterity, the Male Complementarity, the Prince, the King, the Doctor, the Male Nurse, the Male Guide of his Wife and the Person who reveals in her, her part of masculinity and helps her feminity. The married male, who is the husband, has to understand the normal sexuality of his female: husband is the teacher of the sexuality of his wife, he is also the professor of the sexuality of his wife, and then he is the doctor and master of love of the sexuality of his wife.

===== He is under the conjugal submission of his wife.

The sexual yoke and the sexual submission in the catholic sense still exist.
The sexual yoke, the sexual link, the sexual tie, the sexual submission and the sexual conjugality are catholic notions.
 
This is all very interesting, but I believe it should be noted that sexual pleasure is not a “right”. It is integral to the properly ordered sex act, as designed by God, but I really can’t think of any context in which it is a “right” that is due to one person from another.
 
This is all very interesting, but I believe it should be noted that sexual pleasure is not a “right”. It is integral to the properly ordered sex act, as designed by God, but I really can’t think of any context in which it is a “right” that is due to one person from another.
I agree with you completely. There can be a sexual encounter that comes about motivated by one persons sense of ‘duty’ at times. In fact I would say that I have often experienced that although it is ultimately out of duty to marrriage rather than duty to a person. But any act of sex that has been the result of one party invoking their ‘right’ to sex stinks of conjugal rape to me.
 
This is all very interesting, but I believe it should be noted that sexual pleasure is not a “right”. It is integral to the properly ordered sex act, as designed by God, but I really can’t think of any context in which it is a “right” that is due to one person from another.
*In the context of the conjugal act:
*
The right to the body of the other, the right on the body of the other, the right to the body of the other are catholic canonical notions that are directly linked to the sexual conjugal obligation coming from the contractual nature of marriage.

By the words of the" sexual conjugal obligation ", we have to understand following things, that by principle:
  1. The wife has the moral right to request the conjugal act to her husband and this husband has the moral obligation to say yes to this marital request.
  2. The husband has the moral right to request the conjugal act to his wife and this wife has the moral obligation to say yes to this marital request.
  3. Each member of couple is an asker, a requester, a debtor, a payor and a creditor for what is linked to the conjugal sexuality.
  4. *The sexual yoke, the sexual tie, the sexual link, the sexual submission and the sexual conjugality *are totally catholic notions.
  5. Each member of the couple is not " totally free " for what is linked to the conjugal sexuality, because by advance and for all the life, the day of wedding,* in the conjugal vows, each one gives the body to the other, and receives the body of the other:* the mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable donation of bodies,* in materiality*, and the mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable reception of bodies, in materiality.
  6. The agreement of each one to try to be the best conjugal lover, in the context of the marital act.
  7. The agreement to be a passive lover, to receive from the other, and to be an active lover, to give to the other (see the canon law that asks the sexual cooperation in the human fashion); here, each spouse is held to cooperate,* sexually speaking*, that is a moral obligation. Each member has the moral right * " to work on the body of the other ", in love and in the tenderness. And each member has the moral obligation to let to work the other on his or her body*, in love and in the tenderness.
  8. Each spouse, morally speaking, must agree with the fact of receiving some sexual human caresses on the body, and to give some sexual human caresses on the body of the other.
  9. The conjugal act is a* material thing, a phenomenon, a process, prayer and a liturgy, in three times.*
  10. The right to touch, to massage, to kiss, to suck, to lick, to stimulate, to see, to look at, to stare, to hear, to listen, to feel the nudity of the other, and to give sexual pleasures (the right to try to provok), to receive sexual pleasures (the right to expect), to give sexual orgasms (the right to try to provoke) and to receive sexual orgasms (the right to expect);
  11. The reserved acts to spouses are, by nature, sexed, sensual, erotic and sexual.
  12. No spouse has the right to deny the sexual physical rights of the other.
 
This is all very interesting, but I believe it should be noted that sexual pleasure is not a “right”. It is integral to the properly ordered sex act, as designed by God, but I really can’t think of any context in which it is a “right” that is due to one person from another.
The word “right” means:

The moral right to work on the body of the other, in love and in the tenderness, in the human fashion;
The moral right to try to provoke the normal conjugal sexual pleasures on the body of the other, in love and in the tenderness, via the conjugal caresses, even sexual, in the human fashion;
The moral right to try to provoke the normal conjugal sexual orgasms on the body of the other, in love and in the tenderness, via the conjugal caresses, even sexual, in the human fashion;

The moral obligation to let working the other on his or her body, in love and in the tenderness, in the human fashion;
The moral obligation to let the other of trying to provoke the normal conjugal sexual pleasures on the body of the other, in love and in the tenderness, via the conjugal caresses, even sexual, in the human fashion;
The moral obligation to let the other of trying to provoke the normal conjugal sexual orgasms on the body of the other, in love and in the tenderness, via the conjugal caresses, even sexual, in the human fashion;

No spouse has the moral right to refuse to the other of attempting to provoke the conjugal sexual emotions. Each spouse has the moral right to expect to see and to note the sexual conjugal emotions on the body of the other coming from the marital act.

No spouse has the moral right to establish a strategy for not reaching the sexual conjugal joys coming from the marital act.
 
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