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R
Randolph
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What your family does is your business. I have no comments about it. You seem to have a very nice family and that’s good. I do wish you well.
As for the argument of “intent”, it can be confusing and dangerous. Often times, the act itself signifies acceptance: With intent or otherwise… For examples: If one regularly.attends a political rally and cheers for that candidate, it is safe to say that person supports that candidate; If one regularly attends Mass, receives Communion, and goes to confession, it is also safe to say that that person supports the Catholic Church; If one often goes to palm readings and pay for them, it’s safe to say that person wants to here from the palm reader.
Personally, when I was living in Asia, there were people who chose to participate in rituals that offer their own souls to the various deities (different forms of the devil) in exchange for possibly receiving future favors from the deities. You can say for those with intent to do so must accept whatever comes their way. But, it did not end there. Their invited friends who came to witness the ceremony—without their intent—were also affected by the forces of the deities. These people came home with the devil spells cast upon them and literally lost themselves. They were then had to go to different “voodoo” places to cast the demons out of them. One would think that this is ridiculous, but it happens all over Asia.
The Catholic Church in Asia knows too well of dangers of various pagan offerings and ceremonies. That is why the Church has taught!the flock to stay away from them. When it comes to respecting the death, there are the offering of the Mass. All Souls’ Day, visiting the graves, and various other events that do not involve ancestor worshiping rituals that confuse the faithful.
As for the argument of “intent”, it can be confusing and dangerous. Often times, the act itself signifies acceptance: With intent or otherwise… For examples: If one regularly.attends a political rally and cheers for that candidate, it is safe to say that person supports that candidate; If one regularly attends Mass, receives Communion, and goes to confession, it is also safe to say that that person supports the Catholic Church; If one often goes to palm readings and pay for them, it’s safe to say that person wants to here from the palm reader.
Personally, when I was living in Asia, there were people who chose to participate in rituals that offer their own souls to the various deities (different forms of the devil) in exchange for possibly receiving future favors from the deities. You can say for those with intent to do so must accept whatever comes their way. But, it did not end there. Their invited friends who came to witness the ceremony—without their intent—were also affected by the forces of the deities. These people came home with the devil spells cast upon them and literally lost themselves. They were then had to go to different “voodoo” places to cast the demons out of them. One would think that this is ridiculous, but it happens all over Asia.
The Catholic Church in Asia knows too well of dangers of various pagan offerings and ceremonies. That is why the Church has taught!the flock to stay away from them. When it comes to respecting the death, there are the offering of the Mass. All Souls’ Day, visiting the graves, and various other events that do not involve ancestor worshiping rituals that confuse the faithful.
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pnewton
Guest
I was referring to theology, not politics. Regrettably, the term “liberal” has likewise been rendered negative. Darned if I know what to call such people now.
For those that don’t know, St. Francis did a whole lot of new things for the first time. He also used personification in a way that know is sometimes seen as nature worship, though it was not.
For those that don’t know, St. Francis did a whole lot of new things for the first time. He also used personification in a way that know is sometimes seen as nature worship, though it was not.
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pnewton
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Were you? Did it cause you to value the Koran more? I say this because it seems those who call it scandal weren’t actually scandalized.
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Randolph
Guest
I love JP2. He was a great pope and a great saint indeed… Like all the saints and popes in the Church, he was human and sinned. I am quite sure that not al of his decisions/thoughts as a man and as a pope were saintly. In fact, he probably made many bad decisions. This great saint probably would have been the first person to tell you that.
You should be reminded that: St. Peter, entrusted by Christ with the key to Heaven, denied Christ three times; St. Paul hunted down Christians.
And no, please no impeachment talks about St. Peter or St. Paul…
You should be reminded that: St. Peter, entrusted by Christ with the key to Heaven, denied Christ three times; St. Paul hunted down Christians.
And no, please no impeachment talks about St. Peter or St. Paul…
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pnewton
Guest
That is a good point. Consider also then that people might also be put off by reporting on such incidents that is done rashly and with the worst possible spin, both then and today. If showing respect toward receiving a gift can cause scandal, wouldn’t it be worse for vloggers and pundits to spin this as idolatry and worship? I wonder which truly has the greatest negative impact, this ceremony, or Church Militant’s report of this ceremony, for example; the synod, or the criticism of the synod.
For me personally, neither faze me. They are not doctrine.
For me personally, neither faze me. They are not doctrine.
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Randolph
Guest
Even in theology, I have never heard the term “progressive” to describe this great saint. Since his death around 800 years ago, could you find any reference in any Church writings that uses this term to describe him? Perhaps, in recent times, the “progressive” wing of the Church has made progressive reference about him as to pull him over to their side.
God created the earth so we should be good stewards of the earth and be respectful to it. The real problem arises when people worship Mother Earth.
God created the earth so we should be good stewards of the earth and be respectful to it. The real problem arises when people worship Mother Earth.
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Frankie65
Guest
PNewton I am not being uncharitable but if that’s how it came across I’m sorryam thinking of Uncle Screwtape. He must love the emphasis on demon worship at the expense of charity. I do not know my Amazonian paganism, but I do know the Catechism and what it teaches on rash judgment. Critics are ignoring this and refusing to " interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way."
But I am convinced that demons care not a jot for intention or culture or whatever else. All they see is a human being bowing in full sight of the Lord our God, other people and whatever invisible spiritual realities lurk about any site with a Buddha or any other demon statue.
Bowing means one thing to them which is , capture, acquiescence of a soul
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So on the one hand, you are saying respect.Like many Koreans, they have simply kept the ritual - because it’s culturally ingrained that this is the respectful way to visit a grave - while giving it a different meaning.
And in the other, you use the word offering. Which describes worship.
You will have to forgive my skepticism that an ‘offering’ as you call it is really just a form of respect.
There is a reason behind offering the rice wine and food…and it isn’t some respect.
I can readily accept that some gestures in different cultures mean different things, but I cannot accept an ‘offering’ as anything other than a form of worship.
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pnewton
Guest
You weren’t, at least no more than I am, and we all are. That is why I said, “at the expense of charity.” I believe in demons, but I believe they are insidious, desiring our ruin more than their worship. Satanism, paganism, and demonic worship is not what will keep most people away from God. That is my only point. And if that is the case, then we definitely meed the criteria of needing to remove our own plank first, as that is the greater danger. The Holy Father may be Jesuit, and do things differently than we are used to, but he is not going to go off the “reservation” into paganism. If something was amiss in that ceremony, I am sure he will tend to it, and none of us will be the wiser. When it comes to such things, the Church does not broadcast sins.PNewton I am not being uncharitable but if that’s how it came across I’m sorry
In any case, there is not challenge to doctrine in a one time ceremony to plant a tree.
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Randolph
Guest
How was people’s kneeling/prostrating around the two statues of women (speculated as the Goddess of fertility) part of planting a tree?In any case, there is not challenge to doctrine in a one time ceremony to plant a tree.
This explanation is really quite lame and insulting. Many of us, myself included, have planted a tree. I can assure you we neither kneel and nor prostate ourselves to any statue to get the job done. A shovel, some dirt, some water and a tree will do. I have also seen public events of planting trees. No kneeling and prostrating there either…
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And you will have to forgive me, but I doubt you know better than I do what goes on in my heart and head.You will have to forgive my skepticism that an ‘offering’ as you call it is really just a form of respect.
There is a reason behind offering the rice wine and food…and it isn’t some respect.
I thought I explained it clearly. That ritual did originate in ancestor worship. Some people do still use it to actually worship ancestors. Some people kept the gestures and changed the intent, because they are Christian and have been inculturating their inherited practices into the framework of their Christian faith.
Christmas trees are said to have pagan origins. I still put one up in my living-room during Christmas time because it helps me rejoice in the coming of the Light of the nations. Would you say this is pagan worship ?
And with that, I will be muting this thread, because I am getting upset at all these broad assumptions of pagan or demonic worship made about whole cultures and countries, if not continents. Yes, some parts of the world are far away from Holy Land. Yes, it took the Gospel some centuries to reach them. Yes, the people who hear it and accept it come to Christ, and sometimes give up their lives, with the fullness of who they are – individuals and societies shaped during centuries, if not millennia, by Buddhism or Confucianism or Shintoism or Taoism in the case of Asia, by other religions in South America. That is part of their identity, of the inheritance they bring to Christ, and which they invest with a new, Christian meaning. If there are people in the West who don’t like it, well, that’s too bad.
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Randolph
Guest
I am sorry if my words may have made you upset. They were never intended to be that way. Forgive me…
Like your husband, I was born in Asia, and grew up there. My ancestors are from there. I love my family, parents, grandparents and the elders. I visited Asia often and always made graveside visits to my grandparents and all the elders in my family. There, I prayed for them, lit candles and incense, sprinkled holy water, and brought them flowers and plants. It meant a whole lot to me to visit them because I love them, miss them and appreciate them for all their love and sacrifices. I understood you very well when you talked about respect and gestures of respect to the elders and to the death. It is quite admirable, and is unfortunately lacking in the West. We agree more than you might think.
In my posts, I just wanted to make the clear the dangers of paganism and pagan practices. They can look noble and harmless, but their implications can be devastating to the souls. I lived in that culture and was very fortunate to have good priests and nuns to help me navigating through the potential dangers. My priests and nuns taught us to respect the practices of culture, while maintaining our fidelity to Christ and to the Catholic Church. My word of caution to people in the Catholic Church is that we must be on guard against practices that could lead us away from Christ in the spirit of good natureness and ecumenism. Pantheism is a heresy and is dangerous to the soul. May God continue to bless you and your family…
Like your husband, I was born in Asia, and grew up there. My ancestors are from there. I love my family, parents, grandparents and the elders. I visited Asia often and always made graveside visits to my grandparents and all the elders in my family. There, I prayed for them, lit candles and incense, sprinkled holy water, and brought them flowers and plants. It meant a whole lot to me to visit them because I love them, miss them and appreciate them for all their love and sacrifices. I understood you very well when you talked about respect and gestures of respect to the elders and to the death. It is quite admirable, and is unfortunately lacking in the West. We agree more than you might think.
In my posts, I just wanted to make the clear the dangers of paganism and pagan practices. They can look noble and harmless, but their implications can be devastating to the souls. I lived in that culture and was very fortunate to have good priests and nuns to help me navigating through the potential dangers. My priests and nuns taught us to respect the practices of culture, while maintaining our fidelity to Christ and to the Catholic Church. My word of caution to people in the Catholic Church is that we must be on guard against practices that could lead us away from Christ in the spirit of good natureness and ecumenism. Pantheism is a heresy and is dangerous to the soul. May God continue to bless you and your family…
And that is why Catholics should not participate in such actions.That ritual did originate in ancestor worship. Some people do still use it to actually worship ancestors.
Not only did it originate as such, it still is.
A Catholic participating is at the very least creating confusion for those around and at the worst violating the first commandment.
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Randolph
Guest
Paganism has existed as long as people have been around. It’s all around us, and is practiced throughout the world.
The Consecration to St. Francis and the planting of a tree are fine and good. The problem is with the kneeling and prostrating of people around the two statues of women (speculated as the goddess of fertility) on Vatican ground—where the Vicar of Christ resides and where the remains of St. Peter (holder of the key to Heaven) rest. Idolatry and Pantheism are incompatible with the teachings of Christ and the Church. They are dangerous to the souls.
The Consecration to St. Francis and the planting of a tree are fine and good. The problem is with the kneeling and prostrating of people around the two statues of women (speculated as the goddess of fertility) on Vatican ground—where the Vicar of Christ resides and where the remains of St. Peter (holder of the key to Heaven) rest. Idolatry and Pantheism are incompatible with the teachings of Christ and the Church. They are dangerous to the souls.
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Randolph
Guest
That may be true for her, and I hope she knows and understands all the implications of her belief.
She also mentioned it was ok for her husband (a pastor) to kneel and prostrate in front of a statue of Buddha—who teaches detachment from all things (which [including parents?, grandparents?, your children?, your spouse?, your God?..] are the sources of all sufferings).
Ironically, it was God who was the Creator of world, and it was who God who said it was good. Can you see the contradiction?
She also mentioned it was ok for her husband (a pastor) to kneel and prostrate in front of a statue of Buddha—who teaches detachment from all things (which [including parents?, grandparents?, your children?, your spouse?, your God?..] are the sources of all sufferings).
Ironically, it was God who was the Creator of world, and it was who God who said it was good. Can you see the contradiction?
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Randolph
Guest
Detachment from the world (all things) is the core of Buddhism. Buddhism would not exist without the teaching of detachment. Enlightenment/nirvana could not be reached without the practice of detachment.
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