Shamans at the Vatican

[CapitalistCatholic]

Gloria in excelsis Deo! Those idols have been thrown into the River Tiber. The Saints in Heaven rejoice!

 

[vz71]

and make an offering of food and rice alcohol,

This isn’t worship?
Who or what are you offering to?

 

[OddBird]

To nobody (or nothing), actually.

There are indeed people who do this as a part of traditional ancestor worship, and offer it up to the spirits of the deceased.

But, of course, nobody in my (Christian) Korean family subscribes to the Confucian belief that spirits have to be “kept alive” until they reach the suitable stage at which they dissolve into nature.

Like many Koreans, they have simply kept the ritual - because it’s culturally ingrained that this is the respectful way to visit a grave - while giving it a different meaning.

So, to my family and most people around me, it’s just a kind of “we love you and we don’t forget you” gesture, exactly like I would put flowers on a grave here in Europe. Except we eat the food before leaving so it doesn’t go bad or/and attract rats.

Last time we did that was two weeks ago, for loved ones who were Catholic and are buried in the Catholic part of the cemetery, where every single grave has the traditional offering slate, and where all that is presided over by a statue of the Blessed Mother.

 

[Randolph]

This is Ancestor Worshipping. This is as pagan as it gets. Along with Buddhism, Ancestor worship is very common in Asia. Basically, the death—the ancestors—are elevated to some form of deities, and are worthy to be worshiped . The offerings connect the living with the death, and is also a form of petition to the death in the hope that their petitions would be granted to the living. A power argument that ancestor worshipers often used is: “We can not now exist without our ancestors. Even in death, they are still looking over us. Therefore, it’s only appropriate that we honor, respect and worship them.”

The Church has held the position that while we offer respect, have Mass said, and offer prayers for the death, making offerings to the death or worshiping them are strictly not allowed. In Asia, ancestor worshipping has been around for thousands of years, and is still very prevalent today. It is very influential in Asia and has been something the Church has had to to deal with for centuries in Asia. Ancestor worship flows well along side with Confucianism and Buddhism.

Under the banner of respect, if not done correctly, one can be led to accepting worshipping idols. This is another reason why the Church must be very careful when it comes to ecumenical talks with other religions in the world.

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[pnewton]

I wish I would remember to come back to this next year.

OSt. Francis of Assisi is a great saint in the Church.

Yes he was, and he was very progressive, coming up with some ideas that were really out there, in a sense. He was not perfect, but he is a saint. That is why I do not get all this backlash over what is just a ceremony to receive a gift. A tree was planted as a gift. I would bet that Pope Francis had no (name removed by moderator)ut in it, and just attended. Heck, he didn’t even have a written prayer or blessing, but said the Our Father.

And just perhaps there has been a lot of response because there isn’t a lot of substance to the criticism, or at least those that know what went on do not think so. For example, the equation of the Pachamam of the Incas to the Amazonian tribes must be seen are rather ludicrous to those from the Amazon, and maybe a little patronizing.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Gloria in excelsis Deo! Those idols have been thrown into the River Tiber. The Saints in Heaven rejoice!

where is security! on another note, they are floating,

 

[pnewton]

OddBird:

visited a Buddhist temple and he bowed and prostrated to the statue of Buddha. I was shocked, but he laughed and explained that in his culture, these gestures are a sign of respect for wise elders and teachers, and have nothing to do with veneration

Unfortunately culture doesn’t matter to the demon, who will accept it as worship

I am thinking of Uncle Screwtape. He must love the emphasis on demon worship at the expense of charity. I do not know my Amazonian paganism, but I do know the Catechism and what it teaches on rash judgment. Critics are ignoring this and refusing to " interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way."

 

[OddBird]

This is Ancestor Worshipping.

If you are talking generally, then yes, it can be ancestor worshipping, although in the Confucian tradition the deceased do not become deities ; the aim of the worship is to help their spirit dissolve into nature. I would most emphatically not participate in ancestor worshipping.

If you are specifically talking about what my family does, then most certainly not.

This illustrates my whole point about knowing the meaning of the gestures and the intent with which they are done.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

“We all float down here…” Very fitting.

 

[GiftofMercy]

what I mean is they will float to the banks and be retrieved. IMHO, But still where is the security or are the real statues somewhere else in the Synod venues?

 

[Randolph]

St. Francis was very Catholic and obedient to Christ. I would not choose, and neither has the Church, the word “progressive” to describe this great saint. This word in recent time has quite a negative tone to it when it comes to faithfulness to Christ and the Church. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Hilary Clinton, AOC, etc… call themselves “progressives.” How do these people view the Church?

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

Hopefully, they end up sinking one way or another. If I were the thief, I would have burned them then and there. No retrieving ashes

 

[Alphard]

Even if that was the case, but i don’t think, the whole ceremony could and in fact produced confusion in a lot of people, and many could also see this ( rightfully so) as sign of sincretism.
So at best it is a weird celebration of amazonian culture ( why? Is our Western culture so bad we have to learn from amazonian indigens, with due rwspect) with the consequence of moving away from Christ and induce in mistake many people, at worst a worship of demons.
Regarding the offering to the dead thing, i think since it has its roots in a pagan vision of world and spirit, it would be best to abandon it, just like i don’t like halloween, due to its occultistic ties, even if most of people just wanna have fun

 

[GiftofMercy]

just like i don’t like halloween, due to its occultistic ties, even if most of people just wanna have fun

I agree with you on Halloween. We set about scaring ourselves with different things, I now wonder if that is idolising them because in the Bible it says we should ONLY FEAR GOD

So why are we rebelling and setting about scaring ourselves with halloween artefacts.
Advertisments for Halloween include hiring a medium to up the ante on the night. I am beginning to believe in the great apostasy being closer then centuries away.

 

[Wannano]

Even if that was the case, but i don’t think, the whole ceremony could and in fact produced confusion in a lot of people, and many could also see this ( rightfully so) as sign of sincretism.
So at best it is a weird celebration of amazonian culture ( why? Is our Western culture so bad we have to learn from amazonian indigens, with due rwspect) with the consequence of moving away from Christ and induce in mistake many people, at worst a worship of demons.
Regarding the offering to the dead thing, i think since it has its roots in a pagan vision of world and spirit, it would be best to abandon it, just like i don’t like halloween, due to its occultistic ties, even if most of people just wanna have fun

I agree with you…are we in Christendom ready to confront anything in our experience that has pagan origin but is culturally ingrained and so given a “different meaning?”

 

[GiftofMercy]

The more I think about this stuff at the Vatican and around the globe in other places, the more I think it is time to start confronting what people see as innocent fun or well its cultural. Should I go and watch a Corroboree or a Smoking Ceremony or dress up as a demon at Halloween, or buy a packet of female products with the symbol for the goddess venus on it

 

[Alphard]

You may not know 31 october is a day of great importance to many occultistic and satanic groups

 

[Sirach2]

I do know the Catechism and what it teaches on rash judgment. Critics are ignoring this and refusing to " interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way."

I wonder how many were scandalized by Pope SAINT John Paul II when he kissed the Koran? Looks like a similar scenario. And JPII is a saint. Doesn’t sin lie in the person’s intention? Was there intent to worship? I seriously doubt it, but Pope Francis’ detractors will look for any opportunity to impeach him. (Pun intended)

 

[Sundiver]

Thank God they didn’t do this during the mass. Although, I don’t see the Vortex as

… more vitriol, venom and hate from Voris.

I view the Vortex as a source for reporting what is taking place. I really believe they report the facts they know. The Vortex is not divisive if these bishops are actually doing things against the faith. The Vortex is putting a spotlight on their actions. If that is divisive then lets look at the source of the division. If there is a group of bishops and cardinals who are deliberately introducing secularism into the church then we need to know. This generation is responsible for maintaining the faith of the true Catholic church.
Who else is reporting on this? Usually the reporting agencies are biased with liberal ideology so they avoid the truth. I would rather know the truth even though it may make some uncomfortable than to listen to a version of watered down faith.

 

[vz71]

To nobody (or nothing), actually.

Then why do it?