Shamans at the Vatican

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I dont have time to answer all this atm, exams are looming, but will start a thread after them as a spin off from Hope’s thread and will include this as it is related to what we are discussing there.
 
Of course all of that! But how does that change the reality that there was a pagan I don’t worship ceremony in the Vatican garden with the pope attending?
 
I suppose I find the more important question to be, “Were they right?” I don’t really care who first said it. If it isn’t true it doesn’t matter. And if it is true it does matter…it still doesn’t matter who said it but it does matter that what was said is true and in this case it appears to be true based on watching the video of the footage of the pagan ceremony that took place at the Vatican.
 
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I am not very concerned with what they called it or who called it what. I am concerned With what it actually was. with what it actually was. Watching it, you watch the pagan worship of fertility goddesses that traditionally are offered bowls of dirt as the form of the pagan worship. You watch that ceremony and that is exactly what is done: they bow down to the pile of dirt. They put their foreheads on it. Then they dump their own bowl of dirt onto the pile as an offering to the fertility goddess. It is a pagan ceremony.
 
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Teek. I agree with you. This is both tragic and sad. A pagan ceremony was allowed in the Vatican garden. There is no other way to put it or to spin it. This is not ecumenical. The goal of ecumenism is to bring others toward the truth and the love of Church—not to muddle the Catholic faith and confuse the faithful. I grew up in a country where pagan rituals are the norm. I can assure you that this mostly emboldens their pagan beliefs. I can see and hear the propaganda they will spread when they get home: “Our brave leaders came to their home and gave witness to our faith. See for yourself.”

This is an example of shepherds who have lost focus on their responsibility to tend and to feed the sheep. May God have mercy on the Church.
 
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Teek said:
I am not very concerned with what they called it or who called it what. I am concerned With what it actually was. with what it actually was. Watching it, you watch the pagan worship of fertility goddesses that traditionally are offered bowls of dirt as the form of the pagan worship. You watch that ceremony and that is exactly what is done: they bow down to the pile of dirt. They put their foreheads on it. Then they dump their own bowl of dirt onto the pile as an offering to the fertility goddess. It is a pagan ceremony.
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Did you see how many people brought bowls of dirt to plant the tree, or did you just see the people from the Amazon? That is why I am saying to people watch the Consecration to St Francis in its entirety. There was a long line of people who were involved in planting that tree and bringing bowls of dirt. We don’t know it was an offering to any goddess, that is not stated anywhere. People are just assuming at this point.
 
It is very hard for non indigenous to understand the belonging to the earth rather then 'owning ’ a plot of land , paying money for it and believing it is owned by the person who bought it for money.
 
Maybe you should note that Xukuru spelled the word “mother nature” with capital letters, but did not capitalize the word “God”. Hmmmm. You demand respect, but fail to respect God.
Or, was this something that was “lost in translation?”
 
Adamek said:
Or, was this something that was “lost in translation?”
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You’d notice the website is Catholic answers not Catholic fan club. If you wanted an insular thought process then I’d argue the venue needs to be updated.
 
And this is an argument? You demand respect for mother earth, but not for God?

If nothing else, at least you could try some logical thinking.
 
Adamek said:
And this is an argument? You demand respect for mother earth, but not for God?
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Hang on, no one said that. Also God doesn’t care according to your own doctrine.

The only one who cares about capitalization is you. Maybe it was a mistake, most odinist I know of use small g God frequently so likely it’s a habit.
 
“Planting that tree and bringing bowls of dirt”?? You know too well that they were doing more than just that…

What were the two statues of pregnant women? Why were people bowing/kneeling/prostrating around them? These were acts involving more than planting a tree and bringing bowls of dirt… If they were not performing a ceremony, then what were they doing?
 
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Xicao_Xukuru said:
She can if you allow her to. I don’t expect someone like you to understand. Thankfully there are friends in the Vatican that do understand.
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Unfortunately This is the mindset of many people at the synod, including some of the clergy.

No, mother earth doesn’t speak to me. Try as one might, we don’t personify the earth as a female person who speaks to us and binds all living things together for the sake of an ecological goal.

This synod has nothing to do with being respectful of other cultures or being good stewards of the earth. And I have yet to hear anyone blatantly disrespect the Amazonian people or their culture.

The outrage is stemming from this view that we need to allow this pagan belief and practice into our churches as a sign of cultural tolerance and ecumenical dialogue.

If they want to talk about pollution, littering, deforestation, etc etc; fine, I personally don’t believe the Church’s mission is environmental but whatever.

We don’t need idols, pagan celebrations and pictures of women breastfeeding animals to bring us to a higher enlightenment of how all created things are tied together under the will of mother earth.
 
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To amplify your points, the larger—more dangerous—issue here is a gradual shift in Catholicism toward Pantheism. Under the banners of cultural and religious tolerance and under the false pretense of ecumenism, other (false) gods are being elevated along the side of the Holy Trinity—the same for worshipping practices from other religions to the same level of liturgical practices. We have already seen these things happening in the injections of cultural practices in the Mass and in the recent ecumenical agreements with other religions.

I don’t think this pagan ceremony was an isolated incident. Movements in the Church toward Pantheism have been happening for sometime. We need to pray for the Church to remain faithful to Christ and the Gospels.
 
He is not speaking “respectfully”. He started his post accusing of “biggotry”, a newspeak term made to mock and silence whoever disagree
 
His first post, before he amended it, spoke of “evil white men.” I’m gonna take a wild guess that this was seen as problematic by others.
 
Orwell “newspeak” is the language and vocabulary used as a tool of control and orthodoxy. We see the same use of words today by media and consequentially by ones influenced by media. It is violent and against an healthy discussion. It shouldn’t be permitted.
 
No one in the Church desires schisms because of the loss of souls and of the breakdown of the Church. History has proven that.

But in reality, we can see a schism, if not more, has taken shape for quite sometime. It has been even more apparent in recent events. My prayer is that, in the end, the Church will definitely decide on the side of fidelity to Christ and the Magisterium. My trust is always in Christ’s promise to protect the Church from the gates of Hell.

Let’s offer up our prayers and our sacrifices to Christ and faithfully ask for the intercession of our Holy Mother to keep the Church faithful only to Christ.
 
Yes. However, the icons they used were pagan symbols of Pachemama, which were incorporated into their ritual. Pachemama is a false god/idol. Ritualistic worship of Pachemama involves offerings of bowls of dirt.

It also makes the language of the working synod document much more alarming.

There is no Christian ritual in which we are called to bow down to the earth, touch our foreheads to it while intoning under our breath, nor is there any Christian ritual in which we are to do a communal dance around many symbols of pagan worship.

Our God is a jealous God. He demands fidelity and offers it in return. He alone is worthy.

If I went to a secular event, say a concert, and they did this stuff, I would have left in a hurry. To see it at a Catholic prayer ceremony, attended by no less than the Pope and several Bishops and Cardinals…my heart is broken.

There is One God, and He alone is worthy. He sent His only begotten Son, that we might be saved. If it were a harmless frivolous cultural display: still there is no need for it. We have the one true God, and He is far more than enough.
 
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