Shamans at the Vatican

[Anrakyr]

My mistake. I didn’t realize that odin was part of the amazonian pantheon.

He’s not but I was making a point about heathens I know. They don’t normally use upper case g for the word God.

But on the topic of pantheons, most heathens/pagan/wiccans acknowledge another deity the same way you’d likely show passing respect for leaders of another country.

May not be your god but that doesn’t mean you’d disregard them.

Hence likely why this ceremony happened in the Vatican to begin with.
They don’t disbelieve in Jesus/God as much as “He’s not my god but here is a token of my respect.”

Frankly I think it does more for future dialog then anything.

 

[Anrakyr]

Okay, redundant but I accept your claim as this is a catholic forum.

 

[Frankie65]

Good grief… reading this seems like I’ve tuned in to the radical right wing blogosphere… voris, lepanto, rorate caeli, the remnant, life site… and unfortunately, a small group of very loud cardinals that are very hostile to the pope.

I don’t get it. How are they radical right wing? You mean they are not cultural Marxist?

 

[GiftofMercy]

Yes. However, the icons they used were pagan symbols of Pachemama, which were incorporated into their ritual. Pachemama is a false god/idol. Ritualistic worship of Pachemama involves offerings of bowls of dirt.

Absolutely noone who has any authority to comment has actually commented. I believe the best we have is 'its not the Virgin and its not a pagan idol.

What do you say of Catholics and other Christian groups who were also adding their own bowls of dirt. ?

There is no Christian ritual in which we are called to bow down to the earth, touch our foreheads to it while intoning under our breath, nor is there any Christian ritual in which we are to do a communal dance around many symbols of pagan worship.

Again until it is cleared up, I withhold judgement.

At Fatima , an approved revelation of the Church, Our Lady stated obedience to the Pope, and prayers for the Pope, and went on to talk of internal Apostasy in the Church.

So if one truly believes all that is going on is pagan, pray for Holy Father and say the Rosary. If we say the Rosary frequently, we will be led out of any heretical teachings.

 

[godisgood77]

You mean they are not cultural Marxist?

No, I mean they are radical right wing… you may not have seen the reference to Archbishop Chaput’s comments earlier in the thread. He levied warnings about some of those I referenced. You can take my comments at face value…

 

[Adamek]

You can take my comments at face value…

Your comments are just that. Their value is not determined by you.

 

[godisgood77]

Your comments are just that. Their value is not determined by you.

Of course, just like everyone else… I don’t deserve or expect special consideration … Archbishop Chaput on the other hand is an authority and deserves serious consideration when considering bloggers and media types.

 

[Randolph]

Indeed, as Catholics, we always pray for the pope. Pope Francis is our pope, and we pray for him to shepherd the Church and to safeguard the deposit of faith. Like you, I have a great devotion for our Lady of the Rosary (Fatima). Asking for the intercession of our Holy Mother and praying the Holy Rosaries are some of the most powerful tools we have against the devil.

As for your withholding your judgement on this matter until it is cleared, it is your decision to do so and perhaps it is wise. In the meantime, how would one explain why these people were bowing/kneeling/prostrating around the two statues of pregnant women? It did look like an act of veneration of some kind…, and no one has been able to determine exactly what it is. We know that it was something, and it was more than just planting a tree and bringing in some bowls of dirt…The explanation from the Vatican has been at best vague. Be that as it may…

Would you at least agree then—in the presence of and with active participation from members of hierarchy of the Church—IF what happened were indeed a pagan ceremony, it would have been scandalous for the Church; for it should have not been allowed to occur at all in the Vatican, where the Vicar of Christ resides and where the remains of St. Peter rest?

 

[GiftofMercy]

In the meantime, how would one explain why these people were bowing/kneeling/prostrating around the two statues of pregnant women?

Again if you watched the entire ceremony, you would have seen a line of people adding dirt to the tree being planted, all doing it in their own way. None of them were venerating statues of pregnant women. And indeed when the tree was being planted, the statue was not near it.

There was dirt from many Spiritual sites, Catholic and non Catholic.

It was not a pagan ceremony. How could the consecration to St Francis ceremony be a pagan ceremony. St Francis is a Catholic saint.
Are you saying that we should not allow the consecration to a saint in any ceremony?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I feel like a little common sense could have avoided most of the controversy. But has there been any clarification on what the statue is supposed to be?

 

[Randolph]

OSt. Francis of Assisi is a great saint in the Church. Veneration to this great saint is fine, and is in fact encouraged in the Church. And, yes, there was absolutely nothing wrong with people carrying/bringing bowls of dirt to plant a tree. You would be correct if they were all they were. But, clearly, there was much more going on than that.

My question remains: why were people bowing/kneeling/prostrating around the two statues of pregnant women (Some have speculated these were statues of the goddess of fertility—We still need further confirmation)? This was certainly NOT an act of Consecration to St. Francis, nor was it a necessary part of planting a tree. Clearly, there was something else going on. It seems to me that there was a veneration, or a tribute, of some kind… I would like to hear a good explanation for it if I am wrong.

There has been no indication that the Vatican will comment further on this issue—let alone pursuing any meaningful inquiries/investigations. I sincerely hope that it was not a pagan ceremony, and that the Vatican would absolutely not allow pagan ceremonies/offerings to be exercised on the ground where the remains of St. Peter, to whom Christ entrusted with the key of Heaven, were buried. But, somehow, I just could not get over the people’s bowing/kneeling/prostrating to the statues of the pregnant women…

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[OddBird]

why were people bowing/kneeling/prostrating around the two statues

Do you know what these gestures mean in their culture ?

I ask this because it reminds me of an experience I had in the first months of my marriage.

My husband is Korean (and a Protestant pastor), and we went to Korea for our honeymoon. On one of our very first days there, we visited a Buddhist temple and he bowed and prostrated to the statue of Buddha. I was shocked, but he laughed and explained that in his culture, these gestures are a sign of respect for wise elders and teachers, and have nothing to do with veneration. He prostrated before Buddha as a way to acknowledge him as a wise man and teacher, which is the most he can say about him as a Christian, and as a gesture of peace and goodwill toward the Buddhist community.

A few months later, I was prostrating in front of my parents-in-law to receive their New Year’s blessing. I love them very much, but I don’t venerate them.

I know nothing about Amazonian culture, but the meaning people ascribe to gestures is not the same everywhere.

 

[Randolph]

I grew up in Asia. So, I understand what you said and meant. Cultural norms need to be understood in proper context. My parish priest and nuns, where I grew up, taught us not to kneel or prostrate ourselves to Buddha. We were however, to show proper respect to him. In this case, however, the ceremony was not done in Korea, China, Japan or in the Amazon. It was done in the Vatican—where bowing/kneeling/prostrating is often reserved to the saints and to God—not to show respect/tribute the grandparents or Mother Earth…

 

[OddBird]

I get what you mean, but isn’t it possible that the people who knelt/prostrated just wanted to show respect their own way, because that’s what they feel comfortable with ? For example, I still do not bow or prostrate to Buddha when I am in Korea, because these gestures mean something else to me even in their “right” context (even though I make an exception for my in-laws, and for deceased family members when visiting their grave). If I am expected to show respect in a Buddhist temple, I do it in another way, and I am aware that I am probably ruffling some feathers by not conforming to the expectations. Maybe there is a Buddhist monk somewhere muttering about how a foreigner had a Christian ritual in his temple (although I never did such a thing).

I guess that what I am trying to say is that I find it difficult to affirm there was pagan worship going on in the Vatican when I have no way of knowing the meaning or the intent of the gestures that were made, because they are so far from my own culture. Instead, what I see on this thread is a lot of assumptions that prostrating in this case equates with worshipping. Maybe. But also maybe not.

In the same way, Pope Francis leaving the event before it’s end without saying anything else than the Our Father has been interpreted as meaning about anything from feeling unwell to outrage at the proceedings. Who knows ? As long as he doesn’t explain, I don’t.

 

[Randolph]

If not for the purpose of veneration/tribute/worship, what then could possibly be the intent of people kneeling and prostrating in front of the two statues—which as far as we know are not part of any Catholic devotions or practices?

You know, who know the answer? The people who organized it. But they have been silent on this. I find it very curious and suspicious that amidst the difficulties the Vatican (the gracious host) is facing in providing explanations to this controversy. If it was not a pagan ceremony, the organizers of this event, in a good gesture to the gracious host, could easily say: “It was not a pagan ceremony. It was in fact, so and so…” That should end it. But they have not…

Thank you for your thoughtful responses and for pointing out the proper context of cultural norms. There are many references in expressing respect in Eastern cultures that are often overlooked and misunderstood elsewhere.

 

[OddBird]

I find it very curious and suspicious that amidst the difficulties the Vatican (the gracious host) is facing in providing explanations to this controversy. If it was not a pagan ceremony, the organizers of this event, in a good gesture to the gracious host, could easily say: “It was not a pagan ceremony. It was in fact, so and so…” That should end it. But they have not…

And I am not a good judge of their reasons for that either, so I will refrain from spreading suspicion.

 

[Frankie65]

visited a Buddhist temple and he bowed and prostrated to the statue of Buddha. I was shocked, but he laughed and explained that in his culture, these gestures are a sign of respect for wise elders and teachers, and have nothing to do with veneration

Unfortunately culture doesn’t matter to the demon, who will accept it as worship

 

[OddBird]

I disagree, Frankie. Intent matters too.

 

[Randolph]

Intent (for respect) has its limit and can only go so far. In the case of bowing and kneeling to the parents and grandparents in Asia during special occasions or events, it is widely understood and accepted as showing respect, and no more.

But, at some point, an act itself ceases to be just an act of showing respect, and becomes an act of worshiping an idol, or of a particular veneration. If one kneels or prostrates in front of idols, or statues, and say a prayer to them, it is more than an act of respect, but it is indeed an act of worship or veneration. In this case in the Vatican garden, the people were clearly seen as kneeling/prostrating around the two statues, and said something…

I remember the instructions from the nuns when I was growing up in Asia. We were to show proper respect to Buddha, but never to kneel or prostrate to his statue or any other statues associating with his religion.

 

[OddBird]

But, at some point, an act itself ceases to be just an act of showing respect, and becomes an act of worshiping an idol, or of a particular veneration.

Yes – if intent is present. There is no such thing as accidental worship. How can one accidentally offer up adoration to something one doesn’t even believe in ?

When my husband bows or prostrates to the statue of Buddha, there is not the slightest intent of worship. He does it with the exact same intent as when he prostrates to one of his former teachers, as an acknowledging of human wisdom.

When, as a family, we go to (sometimes Catholic) loved ones’ graves and make an offering of food and rice alcohol, prostrate twice, and then kneel for a few instants of silent prayer, there is not the slightest intent of worship of the dead. On the contrary, we pray for their souls and entrust them to the mercy of God.

To be honest, I find telling people from other cultures that what they do is demonic worship, when they know much better than us what these gestures signify and why they do it (and, in the case of my Korean family at least, when they do it within in the framework of a strong and affirmed Christian faith), really condescending.

And I think I’ll opt out of this discussion, because I can’t see it going anywhere.