Shooting at Muhammad cartoon contest in Texas

[Darryl1958]

The one jihadi shooter was out on probation after a run in with the law for trying to join in the holy war in Somalia.
At least he is dead now. The locals did their job, even if the feds did not take this kind of thing seriously.

 

[elsker]

Here is the winner from Pamela Geller’s site, people’s choice and jury prize:

pamelageller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Mohammad-Contest-Drawing-1-small.jpg

I think this one is much better: Unquote"

I don’t see how putting that image up on this forum does anything to flesh out or elevate this conversation.

We may not agree with Islam’s view in regards to depicting their profit but nothing is gained in promoting whatever the organizers of that event believe in. Free speech always but disrespect just for its own sake, never!

 

[Iconodule]

didymus;12948640:

Here is the winner from Pamela Geller’s site, people’s choice and jury prize:

pamelageller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Mohammad-Contest-Drawing-1-small.jpg

I think this one is much better: Unquote"

I don’t see how putting that image up on this forum does anything to flesh out or elevate this conversation.

We may not agree with Islam’s view in regards to depicting their profit but nothing is gained in promoting whatever the organizers of that event believe in. Free speech always but disrespect just for its own sake, never!

I disagree. Seeing the winning entry shows it not to be disrespectful, though I’m sure there were some that were - ala crucifix in a jar of urine. This image goes to the heart of the matter, and I think it is entirely appropriate to the conversation at hand.

 

[Path_Finder]

Also, in my estimation, things that hurt the cause of religion can be anything from a believer shooting a doctor to some of the things we see in the Middle East.

So, then we are back to what we hear about “are you going to get that upset over a cartoon?”

 

[ringil]

Well, his Holiness has a problem because to many folks-- support for any other religion or viewpoint is ‘hate speech’ against Islam.

Their goal is for all of us to sit down, shut up, and convert.

Saying I am a Christian and reject Islam is ‘hate speech’.

The Holy Father doesn’t have “problems”. He has solutions based on Christian ethics.

 

[didymus]

didymus;12948640:

Here is the winner from Pamela Geller’s site, people’s choice and jury prize:

pamelageller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Mohammad-Contest-Drawing-1-small.jpg

I think this one is much better: Unquote"

I don’t see how putting that image up on this forum does anything to flesh out or elevate this conversation.

We may not agree with Islam’s view in regards to depicting their profit but nothing is gained in promoting whatever the organizers of that event believe in. Free speech always but disrespect just for its own sake, never!

I’m sorry you feel that way but how can we have a discussion w/o knowing what we’re talking about?
To me neither cartoon is lampooning Mohammed nor Islam per se but the idea that they can dictate to everyone else what they can draw.

As for free speech vs. being disrespectful to religion, who decides?
During height of the “pedophile priest” scandals there were plenty of anti-Catholic cartoons some quite vicious, like a leering priest luring a boy into a confessional and some milder such as a bishop with his head in the sand. So who is covered by free speech?

 

[styrgwillidar]

The Holy Father doesn’t have “problems”. He has solutions based on Christian ethics.

Call it what you will, but solutions better be based on reality and understanding what all the other parties objectives are.

The challenge Pope Francis faces, as many good men do, is understanding that not everyone is honest, upfront and truthful. That the goal is to eliminate any criticism or questioning of Islam.

If you cooperate in muzzling folks because you’re threatened with violence you will continue to get threats of violence. If you reward acts of violence by shutting up, then you will continue to see acts of violence committed. It will not be simply pictures of the prophet but things like, oh, showing films like “American Sniper”— which has been pulled from being shown at several US colleges by labeling it ‘hate speech’ and insulting to muslims.

 

[TEPO]

nothing is gained in promoting whatever the organizers of that event believe in.

Well, there are two less terrorists on the streets…

…But what is gained from not trying to smoke the radicals out of Islam? You think the problem is going to fix itself by ignoring it? Of course not. The world has to fix it -and its not going to be pretty.

What was created by the world, must be fixed by the world.

 

[grotto]

Didymus: Thanks! (I think) The 1st cartoon was - the last one was pretty good and reminded me of one Norman Rockwell did of himself doing a self portrait. It just goes to show ya - freedom of speech can be exercised without being off the charts disgusting (as in many instances that happens). The majority of freedom of speech that we enjoy is priceless.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

Here is the winner from Pamela Geller’s site, people’s choice and jury prize:

snip

I think this one is much better:

snip

Poignant.

And the first one highlights the issue: It’s not irreverent depictions of their prophet that offend Islam, it’s ANY depiction, crude or respectful.

That’s where the analogy of “drawing the Blessed Mother with feces” or “crucifixes in jars of urine” falls apart here. Those ARE irreverent and offensive. Michelangelo’s Pieta or Valaquez’ Christ Crucified are reverent and beautiful and we love them.

Muslims believe ANY depiction of any prophet: be it Mohammed or not, is offensive and irreverent. You could do a beautiful and presumably reverent painting showing Mohammed rejoicing in the birth of his daughter Fatima and that will still be offensive to them as all depictions of any sort are bad.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
Muslims believe ANY depiction of any prophet: be it Mohammed or not, is offensive and irreverent. You could do a beautiful and presumably reverent painting showing Mohammed rejoicing in the birth of his daughter Fatima and that will still be offensive to them as all depictions of any sort are bad.

…

Not a Muslim scholar, but is that true for all branches of Islam? Has it always been the case? I have heard varying accounts on the prohibition on images.

 

[ucfengr]

Poignant.

And the first one highlights the issue: It’s not irreverent depictions of their prophet that offend Islam, it’s ANY depiction, crude or respectful.

That’s where the analogy of “drawing the Blessed Mother with feces” or “crucifixes in jars of urine” falls apart here. Those ARE irreverent and offensive. Michelangelo’s Pieta or Valaquez’ Christ Crucified are reverent and beautiful and we love them.

Muslims believe ANY depiction of any prophet: be it Mohammed or not, is offensive and irreverent. You could do a beautiful and presumably reverent painting showing Mohammed rejoicing in the birth of his daughter Fatima and that will still be offensive to them as all depictions of any sort are bad.

Not all Muslim traditions hold to that belief. The Quran doesn’t explicitly forbid images of Mohammed and there are stories in the Hadith that refer to images of him.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

Not a Muslim scholar, but is that true for all branches of Islam? Has it always been the case? I have heard varying accounts on the prohibition on images.

As far as I know. If anyone has more info, I’d be glad to see it.

 

[didymus]

Not a Muslim scholar, but is that true for all branches of Islam? Has it always been the case? I have heard varying accounts on the prohibition on images.

From what I’ve read it was not always the law, at least not universally, but it is now. In the '70s Anthony Quinn starred in a movie The Message about Mohammed as his uncle Hazma. Mohammed didn’t appear onscreen at all.

 

[TEPO]

As a point of contrast, here is an illustration from one of Dantes works Divine Comedy where Dante and Virgil meet Muhammad in the eighth circle of Hell(Inferno, Canto XXVIII

“Readers often cannot understand how such a serious work may be called a “comedy”. The word “comedy” in the classical sense refers to works which reflect belief in an ordered universe, in which events tended toward not only a happy or amusing ending but one influenced by a Providential will that orders all things to an ultimate good. By this meaning of the word, as Dante himself wrote in a letter to Cangrande I della Scala, the progression of the pilgrimage from Hell to Paradise is the paradigmatic expression of comedy, since the work begins with the pilgrim’s moral confusion and ends with the vision of God.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Alighieri



On April 30, 1921, in honor of the 600th anniversary of Dante’s death, Pope Benedict XV promulgated an encyclical named In praeclara summorum, calling him one “of the many celebrated geniuses of whom the Catholic faith can boast” and the “pride and glory of humanity”.

 

[TEPO]

A cask by losing centre-piece or cant
Was never shattered so, as I saw one
Rent from the chin to where one breaketh wind.Between his legs were hanging down his entrails;
His heart was visible, and the dismal sack
That maketh excrement of what is eaten.While I was all absorbed in seeing him,
He looked at me, and opened with his hands
His bosom, saying: "See now how I rend me;How mutilated, see, is Mahomet;
In front of me doth Ali weeping go,

Cleft in the face from forelock unto chin;
And all the others whom thou here beholdest,
Disseminators of scandal and of schism
While living were, and therefore are cleft thus.A devil is behind here, who doth cleave us
Thus cruelly, unto the falchion’s edge
Putting again each one of all this ream,When we have gone around the doleful road;
By reason that our wounds are closed again
Ere any one in front of him repass.

• Dante’s Inferno, Canto 28

 

[Path_Finder]

That is interesting Tepo. I’ve never sat down and actually read those writings. Do you recommend them??

 

[Robert_Bay]

No graphics, please

 

[TEPO]

That is interesting Tepo. I’ve never sat down and actually read those writings. Do you recommend them??

I’d recommend the entirety of the work. That little snippet is only an example that shows this type of art as nothing new. Illustrations from the comedy, are worse than the winning picture from Texas. This is nearly 700 years old, and is considered one of the greatest poetic works ever… In its entirety.

 

[didymus]

No graphics, please

Sorry.