Shootings demonstrate need for gun control, USCCB says

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A gun is a tool, not a living thing. If a loony went into a public building armed with a chainsaw, I bet all we would have is crickets. A chainsaw is a tool, a gun is a tool, a hammer is a tool, an axe is a tool. All these, when used properly by lawful and good people only lead to benefits. Why punish the good for misuse of tools by the bad?
Oh, please. No, there wouldn’t be crickets. if a loony went into a public place armed with a chainsaw, most of his victims, including the insects, could outrun him. He wouldn’t be able to perpetrate a crime like the shootings we’ve seen recently.

Yes, you can use a pressure cooker to make a weapon of mass destruction, but firearms are made to kill things. Let us not pretend otherwise; that is what these tools are intended to do! Let’s not pretend that they’re no different than chainsaws or pressure cookers. That is ludicrous.

Why not allow people to buy tanks? Missle launchers? Bombs? Any “tool” of modern warfare they want? Let people install weapons on their cars so they can aim and shoot without ever leaving their vehicles. After all, they’re only “tools.”

Of course there is room for prudential limitations on the “tools of warfare.” The only question is this: with the common good kept in mind, where should the limits be?
 
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LeafByNiggle:
Yes. Limit this right for everyone - not just the law-abiding. The fact that some people, including criminals, might bypass the limit - illegally - does not mean the law has granted them any special dispensation.
And this is why those of us who defend rights do so. Here you say that everyone’s rights should be limited (read, government power increased) even though criminals will bypass laws.
Bypassing the law is what defines them as criminals. That does not mean should accept their actions as inevitable. We still oppose them, however I ineffectively.
The idea is that by limiting this right for everyone, it will have some effect on the criminals too. You may disagree with the practicalities of that assumption, but it is a reasonable one.
Couldn’t this principle be applied to cruel and unusual punishment? Wouldn’t that have an effect on criminals, too? Or maybe just suspend jury trials?
I mean, doesn’t proposing a limitation on one right open the door on others. Doesn’t it?
The “domino theory” is not a perfect refutation of all policies in which it might seem to apply. Gun control is certainly not the first policy that affects someone’s rights. In an intelligent society we know that each policy needs to be considered on its own merits - not as merely one policy in a class of policies. So we should be able to allow restrictions on gun rights (if society deems it worthwhile) without allowing cruel and unusual punishment (if society deems that to me immoral or ineffective). There isn’t just one big door through which all restrictive policies will come tumbling out if it were opened. Instead there are many little doors through which each policy must earn its own passage on its own merits.
 
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Bypassing the law is what defines them as criminals. That does not mean should accept their actions as inevitable. We still oppose them, however I ineffectively.
If the law abiding aren’t the problem, why compromise there rights? If the criminals will "bypass " (a euphemism for violate) the law, then we need to go after them.
The “domino theory” is not a perfect refutation of all policies in which it might seem to apply.
It want a domino theory because I don’t think Americans would stand for it. Neither should they stand for your proposal. I was suggesting it as an alternative, and while I would oppose it, it actually makes more sense than yours.
So we should be able to allow restrictions on gun rights (if society deems it worthwhile) without allowing cruel and unusual punishment (if society deems that to me immoral or ineffective).
They are virtually equal in their immorality
 
Of course there is room for prudential limitations on the “tools of warfare.” The only question is this: with the common good kept in mind, where should the limits be?
The limits should be placed squarely on those who violate the law, those who have proven themselves intent on and been convicted of violence against others. That’s the baseline limit.
 
Thought so. You got nothin’. Sad. Your credibility just went to zero.
 
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The limits should be placed squarely on those who violate the law, those who have proven themselves intent on and been convicted of violence against others. That’s the baseline limit.
I think that much is agreed. The question is how much people who legally buy firearms, for instance, are responsible for what happens because of their decision? You have a right to own firearms. What are your responsibilities?

The Clackamas Town Center shooting was carried out by someone who swiped a gun from a friend. Kip Kinkle was voted “Most LIkely to Start WWIII” by his classmates; his parents bought him his weapons, the weapons he used to murder them and to shoot up his school. The Columbine shootings were carried out with weapons taken from relatives. The Umpqua Community College shooter had a mental illness, but his nurse mother took him out shooting and helped him to cultivate an interest in guns.

Stephen Paddock, the man who killed 58 people in Las Vegas, had no prior record with the police, unless you count ONE traffic citation as grounds to prevent someone from buying firearms. The Sandy Hook shooting report noted that the shooting spree had occurred in the space of less than five minutes with 156 shots fired; 154 were from a single weapon. He also murdered his mother, to whom the gun was registered, described as a gun enthusiast who owned at least a dozen weapons. She often took her sons shooting and who had no fear of her son.

If military and law enforcement arsenals are included, there are enough personal firearms in this country to give one to every man, woman and child. The last time I checked, about 5-6 MILLION were of the type used in the Sandy Hook shootings. Those aren’t self-defense weapons. Those are military assault weapons.

Do the families of the victims not rightly have the expectation that the owners or buyers of those weapons are responsible for the multiple murders of innocent victims committed with their weapons? It isn’t as if these were “unforeseeable” tragedies that “just happened,” like lightning striking. If you own a swimming pool, you own an “attractive nuisance.” If a swimming pool is an attractive nuisance, what is a firearm? It is in a different stratosphere!

I’m sorry, but putting limits on those mass murderers after they violate the law is too late. Go down the list of mass shootings in the United States. You tell me how we prevent that kind of attack, because waiting for a conviction does not cut it.

Do you believe this? When a teen in Oregon went to his high school and committed murder and a suicide with a stolen weapon, a judge concluded he saw “no reason he could prevent the return of a rifle used to kill a 15-year-old Reynolds High School student to the shooter’s brother.” (http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2015/09/judge_says_rifle_used_in_reyno.html)

That is ZERO accountability. You aren’t allowed to own a dangerous dog or to keep dangerous animals for self-protection, but when it comes coincidentally to forms of “self-defense” that can allow a lone shooter to deliver hundreds of lethal rounds, that is somehow a “right.” Explain that.
 
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Explain what you would change and exactly how that would help. Also explain a workable way to implement it, remembering we have the Second Amendment, which isn’t going anywhere.

I am tired of answering pointless hypotheticals on this and similar threads and I will bet the other pro-gun people on this thread are too. Responding to whining is pointless. Put something on the table and let’s talk about it.
 
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LeafByNiggle:
Bypassing the law is what defines them as criminals. That does not mean should accept their actions as inevitable. We still oppose them, however I ineffectively.
If the law abiding aren’t the problem, why compromise there rights?
Those who favor gun control would say that it is necessary because there does not appear to be any way of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals without also placing restrictions on those that are not yet criminals. Notice that people can and do transition from one category to the other. All criminals were once law abiding citizens. And law abiding citizens with guns can become criminals with guns. Placing restrictions on only the known criminals does not help take guns away from unknown criminals.
If the criminals will "bypass " (a euphemism for violate) the law, then we need to go after them.
Totally agree.
 
This argument still raging? Why? Seeking to control inanimate objects, while ignoring the sins of the human heart is just plain silly.

Oh, it appeals to the overly emotional among us, the sufferers of “do something” disease, those who care not about human freedom but only about the furtherance of their personal emotional needs.

But with each new gun law, crime increases. Therefore, there should be less gun laws.

Want a peaceful society? Repeal all laws and arm everyone. Oh, there will be sporadic violence at the start, but it will settle down very quickly.
 
Repeal all laws and arm everyone. Oh, there will be sporadic violence at the start, but it will settle down very quickly.
Weapon industry would be delighted.
As far as settle down, no…
There would be an escalade competing against the " bad guys" and so what? Bazookas and cannons at Amazon.com😳
I would think of a different alternative,po18guy, shipping those and in various models is going to be very expensive …
 
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If one desires a crime-proof society, all who are capable of crime must be eliminated. Fear for yourself first. (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I agree with Colonel Jeff Cooper, who coined the term “Hoplophobe” to describe those with an irrational fear of weapons - inanimate objects.
 
So are you saying you just like to provoke other people into giving their positions so you can get some jollies from criticizing them? But you don’t know or care enough about this topic to have a position of your own? Do you know what that is called on social media?
 
Guns are not an ABSOLUTE right when they intrude on the right to life of others, which is an inalienable right!~The boat sailed for the United States with the deaths of the children in a Connecticut classroom.
Mass killings/shootings are the new normal. The answer is always the same. “Thoughts and Prayers”.
 
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On occasion I have even expressed doubt that certain gun control proposals are or could be effective or practical. In supporting the bishops’ statement on this issue, I have only written in support of their right to make such a statement
No one has suggested the bishops have no legal right to make a statement on gun control. As citizens they have the same rights as everyone else. What was questioned (by me certainly) was both the wisdom of them interjecting themselves into the middle of a political issue, and whether Catholics have a moral obligation to assent to their political preferences.

The debate on this forum has been about what approaches will actually have a positive effect on gun violence. It is a straightforward “good idea” vs “bad idea” discussion. There is no hint of a moral choice involved…which is what makes it a bad idea for the bishops to have involved themselves.
 
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LeafByNiggle:
On occasion I have even expressed doubt that certain gun control proposals are or could be effective or practical. In supporting the bishops’ statement on this issue, I have only written in support of their right to make such a statement
No one has suggested the bishops have no legal right to make a statement on gun control. As citizens they have the same rights as everyone else. What was questioned (by me certainly) was both the wisdom of them interjecting themselves into the middle of a political issue, and whether Catholics have a moral obligation to assent to their political preferences.
I did not mean the “legal” right. I meant the moral right, by virtue of their office. And no, I was not asserting Catholics must assent to their preferences, so that is a straw man argument.
The debate on this forum has been about what approaches will actually have a positive effect on gun violence.
It has been about so much more than that.
 
Guns are not an ABSOLUTE right when they intrude on the right to life of others, which is an inalienable right!~The boat sailed for the United States with the deaths of the children in a Connecticut classroom.
Mass killings/shootings are the new normal. The answer is always the same. “Thoughts and Prayers”.
Guns are an absolute right, inherent and protected by the constitution. What is not a right is misusing a firearm to interfere with the rights of others. NEITHER my right to firearms nor my firearms are in any way responsible for the deaths of anyone. No law abiding firearms owner is responsible for those who kill others, anymore than a car owner is responsible for someone else killing someone while speeding or driving drunk.
A couple of posters on this thread have wondered aloud why rights advocates tend to focus on protecting the right to keep and bear arms. And the answer is because some attack the right instead of attacking the criminal.
 
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