Should "Cafeteria Catholics" just become Protestant?

[Alexander_Roman]

I can only speak for annulments in the RCC. In order to have an anullment in the CC there has to be proof that a marriage never existed in the first place. Many things have to be present for this to exist.

But the bottom line you must prove that no true marriage in the eyes of the Church’s idea of what a true marriage is cannot exist.

Actually, RC annulments are rampant in North America and I know people who received their annulments through a report prepared for their bishop by psychologists.

What you are talking about occurred a long time ago. Not today, I’m afraid.

RC annulments today are “divorces by another name.” In fact, I prefer the Orthodox approach. For one thing, the Orthodox approach drops the pretense that Roman Catholics seem to be always affirming that goes against the actual praxis of their Church in this regard. It is utter hypocrisy.

Alex

 

[wanner47]

Actually, RC annulments are rampant in North America and I know people who received their annulments through a report prepared for their bishop by psychologists.

What you are talking about occurred a long time ago. Not today, I’m afraid.

RC annulments today are “divorces by another name.” In fact, I prefer the Orthodox approach. For one thing, the Orthodox approach drops the pretense that Roman Catholics seem to be always affirming that goes against the actual praxis of their Church in this regard. It is utter hypocrisy.

Alex

They are not divorces at all, and the reason the number has increased is a direct reflection on the grave lack of catechesis and marriage preparation in this country, as well as more knowledge about mental illness and other impediments to marriage.

How is a Church annulment different from a civil divorce?

Many people refer to annulments as “Catholic divorces,” but divorces and annulments differ in very fundamental ways. Still, it might be easier to begin by seeing what annulments and divorces do have in common.

A divorce and an annulment are similar in that they both are legal declarations that are necessary before one person can marry another, if either of them had been married before and the former spouse(s) are not deceased. But that’s where the similarities end and the differences begin.

A divorce is a civil judicial act whereby what was a civilly valid marriage is officially terminated. The state makes no secret about its claimed power to separate what it once joined. (I hedge a bit on conceding the state power to separate what it “joined” because, in many cases, what it joined was a valid marriage under natural law, and that’s not something the state is free to tinker with. But that’s a different problem.)

A Church annulment, on the other hand, is an ecclesiastical judicial act whereby what was believed to be a canonically valid marriage is declared not to have been one in the first place.

An annulment does not deny that a relationship, perhaps a long and serious one, existed between the parties. It does not imply that parties were culpable in living together as man and wife or that their children are illegitimate.

Divorce destroys something that was; Annulments recognize that something never was. That is not just semantics. It’s a matter of precision and hence a matter of truth. Thoughtful people will avoid treating things like divorces and annulments, which are similar in some respects, as if they were similar in all respects.

source

 

[cradlecatholic5]

Praying for all

 

[Alexander_Roman]

They are not divorces at all, and the reason the number has increased is a direct reflection on the grave lack of catechesis and marriage preparation in this country, as well as more knowledge about mental illness and other impediments to marriage.

source

I did not say they were divorces, only “divorces under the name of annulment.”

The annulments of today, granted by the RC hierarchy in North America, are a sham, for the most part. They are a blight on the Church’s moral reputation and they call into serious question what the hierarchy is all about.

You quote documents and definitions - and we should be aware of them.

But being aware of them also means that we become aware of the sham that the Catholic annulment process has become.

Here I stand . . .

Alex

 

[rinnie]

Actually, RC annulments are rampant in North America and I know people who received their annulments through a report prepared for their bishop by psychologists.

What you are talking about occurred a long time ago. Not today, I’m afraid.

RC annulments today are “divorces by another name.” In fact, I prefer the Orthodox approach. For one thing, the Orthodox approach drops the pretense that Roman Catholics seem to be always affirming that goes against the actual praxis of their Church in this regard. It is utter hypocrisy.

Alex

Could you give me a source for this. This goes completely against the teachings of the RCC.

IF you read 1629 of the CCC its shows what you are saying is completely untrue.

You must give evidence and a Church teaching that says what you are saying. If not it is not as I have showed you a teaching of the RCC.

 

[rinnie]

I did not say they were divorces, only “divorces under the name of annulment.”

The annulments of today, granted by the RC hierarchy in North America, are a sham, for the most part. They are a blight on the Church’s moral reputation and they call into serious question what the hierarchy is all about.

You quote documents and definitions - and we should be aware of them.

But being aware of them also means that we become aware of the sham that the Catholic annulment process has become.

Here I stand . . .

Alex

No divorces are granted in the RCC. You do not have the right to judge the Catholic Church. You have no authority. The RCC has authority given to them by God. COuld you show me where you have your authority to judge what they have and have not granted.

As I can see you have no leg to stand.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

No divorces are granted in the RCC. You do not have the right to judge the Catholic Church. You have no authority. The RCC has authority given to them by God. COuld you show me where you have your authority to judge what they have and have not granted.

As I can see you have no leg to stand.

You can find statistics on the number of annulments granted by the Catholic Church in North America. I’ve seen them, articles in Catholic journals have been written about this etc. Plus, I know quite a few Catholics who have received annulments whom I have known all my life and who I KNOW don’t deserve annulments i.e. that they cannot possibly be deemed to have been in an unconsummated marriage.

If you believe that a psychologist’s report is enough for a bishop to grant an “annulment,” then I don’t have a leg to stand.

But then, that is not what the Catholic Church has always taught about what a true annulment really is.

I don’t have any authority to judge the Church. Neither do those who grant annulments on such flimsy evidence.

If something is wrong in the Church, it is WRONG. Any Christian has the authority to condemn such. Would you refuse to condemn the behaviour of Catholics when it overstepped the bounds of the teaching of the Church? Don’t traditional Catholics do this . . .all the time?

I know it’s not nice to talk about such things. But it is a sin to cover up sin, is it not?

But they need to be talked about.

Alex

 

[wanner47]

You can find statistics on the number of annulments granted by the Catholic Church in North America. I’ve seen them, articles in Catholic journals have been written about this etc. Plus, I know quite a few Catholics who have received annulments whom I have known all my life and who I KNOW don’t deserve annulments i.e. that they cannot possibly be deemed to have been in an unconsummated marriage.

I find it astonishing that you were privy to the intimate details of another person’s marriage, both before and after the fact.

If you believe that a psychologist’s report is enough for a bishop to grant an “annulment,” then I don’t have a leg to stand.

If the psychologist’s report states that a severe impediment existed prior to marriage, then yes, it is enough.

But then, that is not what the Catholic Church has always taught about what a true annulment really is.

Do tell.

I don’t have any authority to judge the Church. Neither do those who grant annulments on such flimsy evidence.

Why is it “flimsy”? How do you know that one report was the only evidence considered? Were you on the tribunal at the time?

If something is wrong in the Church, it is WRONG. Any Christian has the authority to condemn such. Would you refuse to condemn the behaviour of Catholics when it overstepped the bounds of the teaching of the Church? Don’t traditional Catholics do this . . .all the time?

What is wrong is that Catholics are not properly catechized about their faith and/or the responsibilities of marriage or how to properly discern marriage. Catechesis in the Church has been atrocious within the last 40 years, hence the uptick in annulments. More and more people are getting married while contracepting, married with no intention to have children, etc.

Also, do the stats you’re using differentiate between lack of form annulments and full annulments? Lack of form annulments are VERY common and quite simple to obtain by Catholics who were civilly married outside of the Church (automatically invalidating their marriage). Lack of form annulments do not have to go through the full tribunal process. The number of Catholics marrying outside the Church has skyrocketed over the last 40 years so these types of annulments have also skyrocketed.

 

[Serap]

You can find statistics on the number of annulments granted by the Catholic Church in North America. I’ve seen them, articles in Catholic journals have been written about this etc. Plus, I know quite a few Catholics who have received annulments whom I have known all my life and who I KNOW don’t deserve annulments i.e. that they cannot possibly be deemed to have been in an unconsummated marriage.

If you believe that a psychologist’s report is enough for a bishop to grant an “annulment,” then I don’t have a leg to stand.

But then, that is not what the Catholic Church has always taught about what a true annulment really is.

I don’t have any authority to judge the Church. Neither do those who grant annulments on such flimsy evidence.

If something is wrong in the Church, it is WRONG. Any Christian has the authority to condemn such. Would you refuse to condemn the behaviour of Catholics when it overstepped the bounds of the teaching of the Church? Don’t traditional Catholics do this . . .all the time?

I know it’s not nice to talk about such things. But it is a sin to cover up sin, is it not?

But they need to be talked about.

Alex

I’ve actually heard many people say that annullment is the Catholic version of divorce b/c they are given out so easily.

I honestly am not educated enough to know for sure if this is true or not.

 

[Mickey]

RC annulments today are “divorces by another name.” In fact, I prefer the Orthodox approach. For one thing, the Orthodox approach drops the pretense that Roman Catholics seem to be always affirming that goes against the actual praxis of their Church in this regard. It is utter hypocrisy.

Indeed.

 

[Serap]

What exactly is the Orthodox approach to divorce?

 

[wanner47]

What exactly is the Orthodox approach to divorce?

From what I understand (and please do correct me, Orthodox brothers, if I am wrong), Orthodox lay people are allowed to remarry up to three times after a divorce.

 

[rinnie]

I’ve actually heard many people say that annullment is the Catholic version of divorce b/c they are given out so easily.

I honestly am not educated enough to know for sure if this is true or not.

Well bottom line if you Divorce is forbidden by Jesus. To say that the RCC grants divorces is to accuse the RCC of disobeying the word of God.

If you cannot prove this you do not want to put yourself in a state of sin. So it is better to not spread gossip on what you have heard do you not agree. Because as Father has said it is not what goes into your mouth that can send you to hell its what comes out.

And it is better to no repeat gossip and not take a chance of putting yourself in mortal sin by breaking one of his commandments do you not agree?

 

[rinnie]

You can find statistics on the number of annulments granted by the Catholic Church in North America. I’ve seen them, articles in Catholic journals have been written about this etc. Plus, I know quite a few Catholics who have received annulments whom I have known all my life and who I KNOW don’t deserve annulments i.e. that they cannot possibly be deemed to have been in an unconsummated marriage.

If you believe that a psychologist’s report is enough for a bishop to grant an “annulment,” then I don’t have a leg to stand.

But then, that is not what the Catholic Church has always taught about what a true annulment really is.

I don’t have any authority to judge the Church. Neither do those who grant annulments on such flimsy evidence.

If something is wrong in the Church, it is WRONG. Any Christian has the authority to condemn such. Would you refuse to condemn the behaviour of Catholics when it overstepped the bounds of the teaching of the Church? Don’t traditional Catholics do this . . .all the time?

I know it’s not nice to talk about such things. But it is a sin to cover up sin, is it not?

But they need to be talked about.

Alex

As I have stated where is your authority to judge who should and should not receive an annulment? Where is your proof that the evidence in indeed flimsy? Were you there when the people did their confession to the Priest?

Can you sit here and say that the 2 People indeed lived what was considered by the Church to be a True Catholic Marriage? If you can then by all means you should go to the Bishop with your proof and show that someone has indeed lied. If you cannot you should not pass judgement on things that are none of your business.

Unless you have every single fact on the process, what was said what witness provided etc you have no leg to stand on.

If on the other hand you can show where a Bishop has sinned then you should produce this evidence.

If you cannot you are doing nothing but breaking a commandment of God and passing false judgement on your neigbor.

 

[TrueLight]

Well bottom line if you Divorce is forbidden by Jesus. To say that the RCC grants divorces is to accuse the RCC of disobeying the word of God.

If you cannot prove this you do not want to put yourself in a state of sin. So it is better to not spread gossip on what you have heard do you not agree. Because as Father has said it is not what goes into your mouth that can send you to hell its what comes out.

And it is better to no repeat gossip and not take a chance of putting yourself in mortal sin by breaking one of his commandments do you not agree?

Where can I find a list of reasons annulments are given or the factors that would make a marriage invalid.

Annulments should be few and far between but they seem to be given out pretty easily.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

I’ve actually heard many people say that annullment is the Catholic version of divorce b/c they are given out so easily.

I honestly am not educated enough to know for sure if this is true or not.

I thought I read somewhere that the Pope said in USA have too many annulments each year. I took that to mean there will be more annulments being denied. Maybe I am wrong?

 

[rinnie]

You can find statistics on the number of annulments granted by the Catholic Church in North America. I’ve seen them, articles in Catholic journals have been written about this etc. Plus, I know quite a few Catholics who have received annulments whom I have known all my life and who I KNOW don’t deserve annulments i.e. that they cannot possibly be deemed to have been in an unconsummated marriage.

If you believe that a psychologist’s report is enough for a bishop to grant an “annulment,” then I don’t have a leg to stand.

But then, that is not what the Catholic Church has always taught about what a true annulment really is.

I don’t have any authority to judge the Church. Neither do those who grant annulments on such flimsy evidence.

If something is wrong in the Church, it is WRONG. Any Christian has the authority to condemn such. Would you refuse to condemn the behaviour of Catholics when it overstepped the bounds of the teaching of the Church? Don’t traditional Catholics do this . . .all the time?

I know it’s not nice to talk about such things. But it is a sin to cover up sin, is it not?

But they need to be talked about.

Alex

Just curious, if a Dr can say in a report that the person is not able to possibly beyond any reason of doubt not be mentally capable being married, you feel the Church should still feel it was a marriage then?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Before someone ‘snaps’ us back on topic, I have a question concerning annulments. Are annulments a Church doctrine/dogma?

I have to admit, never have been involved personally in a divorce or annulment, I have a limited understanding of an ‘annulment’. There are appearances of some ‘working’ the system, so to speak, to easily achieve an annulment. Does this mean the Church is wrong for permitting an annulment in that type instance, that is, when the Church does not realize, or have a way to prove/doubt that the request is less than legitimate?

Now, if annulments are not considered ‘doctrine or dogma’, is it possible it might be an incorrect practice? I am sincerely asking a question, without any innuendo intended. From my understanding, Catholics admit to a wrong practice in handling indulgences which was some of the cause for the reformation. Is it possible that annulments is also being handled similarly in a wrong fashion?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Just curious, if a Dr can say in a report that the person is not able to possibly beyond any reason of doubt not be mentally capable being married, you feel the Church should still feel it was a marriage then?

Well, I, for one, don’t believe that modern psychology should dictate to the Church what it should be doing. Do you?

When has the Church listened to psychologists when defining morality?

I need to sit down since I’ve no legs to stand on right now . . .

I apologise if I’ve given offense. Surely, I’m not the first person you’ve heard these things about annulments from?

And I don’t need to listen in on anyone’s Confession as my acquaintances freely let me know the circumstances of their annulments.

I’ve thought about what you’ve said and I still say the process is “sham-ful.”

If I’ve sinned, I will mention it in my next Confession tomorrow.

Thank you and have a happy Easter.

Alex

 

[rinnie]

Where can I find a list of reasons annulments are given or the factors that would make a marriage invalid.

Annulments should be few and far between but they seem to be given out pretty easily.

In order for an annulment to be granted certain things must be proved.

If you get a copy of the CCC it should be in there.

I know a couple of things for sure are if one person says marry’s the other for money and had not intention to stay married that is one.

I also know many family members are pulled into this and must swear to tell the truth even if its on a loved one. It is very painful.

One reason is if say the person is with child and the parent forces them.

I believe is one is gay and is not honest with the other before marriage. Uses marriage to cover it up.

Some People really have had such a bad home life then are incapable of being married. They have no idea what marriage really was or what was expected of them.

There are many reasons. I am not sure of a site off hand BUt there are many Catholic sites that can help you I am sure.