Should Catholics practice Kosher laws?

[delefin]

ok. I wasn’t aware of that.

Nevertheless your argument was still pointless to the discussion.

 

[tafan2]

So let me get this straight. You want me to watch videos and then discuss them. I look at the clips you posted and I had a valid comment:. the video is most certainly not representative of how cattle are castrated. And you say my argument us pointless?

Well I disagree. The one clip which I have direct experience with us completely inaccurate, so I assume the others are if questionable value also.

I propose you do some research into Dr Temple Grandin, almost all modern slaughterhouses are designed based on her research.

 

[delefin]

So let me get this straight. You want me to watch videos and then discuss them. I look at the clips you posted and I had a valid comment:. the video is most certainly not representative of how cattle are castrated. And you say my argument us pointless?

Yes but i don’t need you watch it all. The problem with me just typing my views is that if the person isn’t actually aware of the reality of it then he can’t imagine what I am saying. Some here asked for evidence.

I don’t understand how you claim the video doesn’t represent how cattle’s are treated. There is nothing fake at all going in there, especially when you see the actual clip that contains the sound and it’s full reaction. Additionally, this topic is about whether it is moral (a sin) for Christians consuming meat that has been killed this way because to the Jews it is… and despite scripture allow us to eat any meat, there is nothing in scripture that changed in terms of being humane towards the animals we eat.

 

[graciew]

I don’t understand how you claim the video doesn’t represent how cattle’s are treated. There is nothing fake at all going in there, especially when you see the actual clip that contains the sound and it’s full reaction.

I spend a lot of time close to cattle. I have a “ beef” in this fight
Nobody cares more for the cattle than those who raise them. Sometimes in the hundreds and grass fed…They are separated, vaccinated, checked daily among others.
I ve seen castration and marking in the fields,we call it yerra y capada, and I am sensitive to the grosse, but this isn’t but a man and animal activity where a couple of men bring the bullock to the ground , they tie it( lo manean) and in flash it is done and almost clean and bloodless. It takes skill.
There are laws in place as per animal cruelty , transportation and such.Check them out wherever you live.And we should see they are respected.
Enforced or improved as necessary
So instead of advocating for turning vegetarian or vegan based on mal praxis and questionable videos, perhaps you might work so that laws are respected instead, I would suggest…
In any case also remember that though production is to be done seriously in every way, it isn’t about pets or a pet or two but sometimes hundreds,as a very serious activity to feed the people healthily.
Hope it helped…I also love animals btw.

 

[PetraG]

Providing evidence is how discussions work, it’s not being rude especially since I was challenged to provide proof.

Now this has been shown, maybe the context of the thread can be answered better. Is this all a sin, and should we as christians have this moral code that we should only consume animals that have not been treated as you have seen in those gifs?

What did you want to do with cattle that aren’t castrated correctly? (Which, as far as I know, would not make the animal permanently treif, anyway.)

In other words, yes, Christians ought to be humane, but no, Christians do not have to keep kosher nor follow Jewish slaughtering rituals.

 

[sudy]

There is nothing in the NT stating that we can butcher animals as violent as possible.

Um… I never stated anything contrary to that. My comment was directly linked to this

Do you think the Church should return this type of laws?

This is asking for an opinion, and as your thread title specifies Kosher my answer was no because we have been freed from the Law and I believe that Scripture indicates that if we try to live by part of the Law, we’d be required to live by the whole Law…

Your thread very clearly asks about returning to practicing Kosher Laws, which is what I was replying to. The real difference of slaughter between Kosher and regular, at least here in the UK, is whether there is a stun gun used or not. Most animal welfare people advocate for either veganism or the least amount of pain inflicted. As you’re clearly not advocating for veganism:

No one is arguing about banning meat, or having specific meats that are allowed to eat. The topic is in regards to it being a sin to butcher animals very cruelly, even more enabling this to continue by giving our money to these factories.

it seems you must be advocating stopping the use of the stun gun? The reason a stun gun is used is to prevent the animal suffering pain or distress.

As to sin:

Animal slaughter is not sinful as it’s clearly practiced extensively throughout the OT.

Eating animals is not sinful as it’s clearly directed by God at the Passover.

Should we seek out more humane ways to make the kill? Absolutely. As far as I’m aware, stunning the animal is considered, by those in the know, to be the least distressing method. If something better comes along should we adopt it? Absolutely.

From a personal perspective I think we eat too much meat as a society, but I don’t agree with binding Catholics to new or old laws unnecessarily. I am against animal cruelty, just to clarify.

I’ll just finish with:

‘Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the grounds of conscience.’ ~ 1 Corinthians 10:25

 

[tafan2]

I don’t understand how you claim the video doesn’t represent how cattle’s are treated. There is nothing fake at all going in there, especially when you see the actual clip that contains the sound and it’s full reaction.

I claim the video does not represent how 99% (if not 99.9%) of castrations are performed. It is not fake, but it provides no objective criteria as to how we should consider the meat industry. Since the meat industry does not treat animals as depicted.

As yo slaughtering cattle, this article and video are informative:

How Are Cattle Slaughtered? – Buzzard's Beat

www.buzzardsbeat.com

 

[delefin]

it seems you must be advocating stopping the use of the stun gun? The reason a stun gun is used is to prevent the animal suffering pain or distress.

I’m not talking about stopping the stun gun. I’m ok with any humane methods… if there is enough proof that the stun gun is completely effective.

 

[tafan2]

I doubt they are staged, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I suspect that some if the clips are from videos from 50 years ago or so. When I was a kid, there was still a lot of variance has to animal handling, name due to so many small operators who had just fine things a certain way that they had learned from their dads and grandad’s. That really started changing in the 60s and 70s, as livestock researchers started making huge strides as to the best way to raise animals. It has done nothing but advance since then. And large operators want to be very efficient and use the best techniques.

For example, with cattle, reducing stress at all times during handling has become a big deal. Chutes and pens are designed specifically with this in mind.

Age of castrations us another example. 50 or 60 years ago, people thought to wait until 6 months if age or so, because bull calves gain weight faster than steers. But that is no longer the case. Many cow calf operators castrate new borns, with almost no stress and much more humane. Almost all operators castrate before 2 months if age. Proper restraining techniques are known to reduce stress immensely. Sickness and death kids are greater the longer you wait.

 

[maryjk]

You provided your evidence. People can choose to watch it or not.

You don’t get to dictate how people defend or don’t defend their actions or arguements.

And you actually do yourself a disservice by responding in the manner that you did.

It seemed very much like a child covering their ears and shouting what they wanted.

People that actually work with animals are trying to have a reasonable conversation with you. You might want to uncover your ears.

 

[delefin]

On the first sentence, you state i provided my evidence and people have the freedom to acknowledge it or not (which they did not, until i made it to gifs), yet I am the one covering my ears?

This makes no sense.

My response was not wrong. No matter where you go in any argument you give, if you are told that you can’t provide your support in anyway you find effective for your case and just get antagonized anyway then i have every right to respond as such. I don’t mind any disagreements, what i don’t like is being antagonized and then getting my posts out of context.

Isn’t this supposed to be a catholic forum, I am shocked at the amount of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[delefin]

I claim the video does not represent how 99% (if not 99.9%) of castrations are performed. It is not fake, but it provides no objective criteria as to how we should consider the meat industry. Since the meat industry does not treat animals as depicted.

As yo slaughtering cattle, this article and video are informative:

I’ve looked at your link and watch the video. I would like to see an actual source of this “99.9%” of castrations just so i can see your claims of misrepresentation is credible. I can’t believe your “statistics” off one factory.

Second, did you read anything I said? It seems that you think this topic is a T/F in regards to animal cruelty in farms. It’s not. This is what i’m referring to in terms of “my tone”… how can anyone here hold this against me when I am just being argued and belittled by people who refuse to actually read the context of my posts?

 

[Bill6]

No.
Christians are under the New Covenant. We have no obligation to do or follow anything from the Old Covenant. In fact, we should avoid attempts to follow Kosher Laws or anything else from the Old Covenant. Jesus’ grace which we reccieve through Faith and the Sacraments is more than sufficent for our salvation and spiritual lives. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and is Our High Priest in Heaven. He has perfected the Old Testement Priesthood in that way and also by making all Christians priests (Universal Preisthood) and certain men ministerial priests (Holy Orders). While participating in certain Jewish rituals may not technically be a sin, the Chrich advises against it. Following Old Testement laws merits no Grace and does not make one holy. It can lead to difficutly in the Spiritual life, scandal, and theological and philosophical misunderstandings.

God Bless and Mary keep you.

 

[tafan2]

I am not trying to belittle you and I haven’t reference your tone.

You wanted a discussion, I have tried to give you some of my experience.

. I would like to see an actual source of this “99.9%” of castrations just so i can see your claims of misrepresentation is credible. I can’t believe your “statistics” off one factory.

First of all, you do realize that how castrations are done have nothing to do with slaughtering animals, don’t you? The 99.9 was mad up by me, I thought that was clear. But it is based on my direct experience. No one castrated cattle as shown in that video clip. The animal us not restrained, working from behind with a sharp knife is not smart, and the animal is too old. As I said, all around poor husbandry.

But here is an article

http://www.beefresearch.ca/research-topic.cfm/castration-67#timing

It appears to me you know little about the raising and slaughtering of livestock beyond what you have seen in those videos.

 

[delefin]

I’ve asked you for sources just so I can learn more about you are saying, however as i have repeated over and over again this is not the context of the topic.

The topic is to discuss the morality in eating animals that have been killed in a cruel manner and that video is just an example of cruelty so it doesn’t matter if this video just compiled 1 out of 300 farms in one state. I did not post those videos for the sake of raising awareness about the existence of farms.

There are Christians all over the world, not all of them have the procedures as the west.

In Spain, there is tradition called bull fighting. In prior to eating the bull, they allow it run around the town and people can throw/stab or whatever damage or fun they want until it collapses and dies. So the topic is.

In China, their is a belief by some people that the greater the animal suffers, the better the meat… so various markets such as in Wuhan do things such as blow torch live dogs, stuff live koala’s in boiling pots (also crucifying them to walls and punching them to death), and other forms of sadism… etc.

In other countries, there is a delicacy known as monkey brains. What they do is they put a live monkey inside a table with it’s head sticking out of the hole, and the person beats it to death.

This is what the topic is about. If a christian goes to these places and decides to try to eat something exotic, is it morally wrong to eat animals that have been killed this way?

I don’t understand why you are arguing about “that video doesn’t represent the entire farm industry” as if this about the farm industry itself, i’ve been explaining to you what the topic is about over and again.

 

[tafan2]

You posted videos as the only source of information to your objections with modern practices if killing animals. you explicitly refused to state any objections beyond those videos, so all we can do is discuss the validity of the videos. And you brought up the castration issue, not me. I simply pointed out that the depiction of castration is so far off common practice, it us evidence the videos are biased to the extent they are not useful to draw moral judgements.

 

[delefin]

because that video is the most g-rated of the sources out there. Also, I have given other forms of “text-based” information that you just ignore such as the one on top with my referencing of other countries.

You’ve totally missed the point of referencing the castration videos again this isn’t about how many farms do this! I’ve said this numerous times what the topic is about and up to now you are ignoring this.

“your objection with modern practices”, this was never the topic you clearly have 0 understanding about what is being talked about.

 

[delefin]

Also tefan. This “common practice” argument of yours (while redundant) is still waiting evidence. You’ve made up a statistic (99.9%), so I would like to see how true and accurate this “common practice” is. Please show me a credible statistic of this, I want to see the actual % of the common way of castration as told by you.

 

[Peebo]

This world is a sinful world…people do bad things to other people…wars…famine…all caused by peoples greed…lust for power…wealth…etc…babies are killed in their mothers womb…children die from hunger…treatable diseases…people kill animals for meat…some people kill them for “sport”…some just kill them because they have twisted minds…animals kill other animals to eat…insects kill other insects to eat…pretty gruesome in some insects…so yes…it’s cruel no matter what…but that’s the way it will be until Christ returns…I do eat red meat…it really wouldn’t matter if I didn’t as I can go for months without it…what I wonder is if we were ever meant to eat the amount of meat we do eat…did God intend for us to eat meat 2-3 or even more times a week…I was watching a show on those “blue zones” where people live longer than most…one was a Greek island…Ikaria…people will eat meat maybe 4-5 times a month…the slaughtered animal will last the whole year…they eat mainly a plant based diet…same here in the US…in California…Loma Linda…has one of the highest number of Seventh Day Adventists in the world…many of those are vegetarian or only eat meat according to strict dietary rules…the Islands off Japan are another place where the people eat a regular diet of fish…and live longer…and of course these groups of peoples have active lifestyles…family and community are also a big part of their lives.

 

[tafan2]

I understand the topic, modern slaughterhouses are cruel, so we should adopt kosher ones ( nevermind that they come under much more scrutiny for cruelty)