Should Deacons wear the Roman Collar?

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What about those in seminary before being ordained, are they considered “clerics” and allowed to wear the “collar” of an ordained cleric?

I have a relative in one of the sedevacantist seminaries and he seems to love the attention he gets sporting his full dress cassock and white collar. What is worse is he does not correct little ones, who address him as “father”.

Pray for our family–this sedevacantism is not only sad, but divisive!
JoBear
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Disillusioned:
The reason I voted no is that too many people having no idea what a deacon is take him for a priest with the clerical collar.

I checked out round about the year 2000 if there are rules.It is seriously wrong for men to tote clerical dress of any sort if they are not ordained, but I have read and had the experience of impostures.You cannot in Britain wear clothes recalling members of the Armed Forces or Police Officers and Clergy.

Just to perhaps reinforce my case further, For as long as two days during a retreat a senior sister believed I was actually a priest-no collar for me, but I had foolishly worn a cross pin like a continental cleric.No harm done I suppose, but look at how easy it is.

No in my understanding you put God’s uniform on when you are completely trained and no half measures.
The history of the collar by the way is very interesting subject.But we must read of that elsewhere.

Coda-there is something else.I remember being shown pictures of someone doing something he should not have been in clerical circles.He was giving the impression by dress alone that he was a bishop yet I was informed that he was nothing of the sort.
There is a Latin Tag “Cuculus non fecit monachum” (I’m not a Latinist but I hope you recognise it.
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Our deacon always wears solid black and a white clerical collar (although it is different than the one the priests wear) when he is working at the parish. However, he was present at Mass yesterday morning as a worshipper with his family and he was in regular clothes and no collar.

When serving as a deacon, he wears his entire white collar outside the collar of his shirt, instead of just having the little tab showing like the priests (I wish I knew the proper terminology). I think it’s appropriate and helpful because it immediately identifies him as clergy but as different than the priests.
 
I think this thread is a perfect example of why people need to understand what deacons are in relation to their church. We need to teach people what a deacon is and does.

A deacon is not a layperson. He is a member of the clergy; he is ordained by a bishop just like a priest (but to a different level of ministry than a priest). The hierarchy of the church has three levels (going from highest to lowest): Bishop, Priest, & Deacon. The bishop is the only level of the hierarchy that receives the full sacrament of Holy Order. Priests receive a less and lower level of Holy Orders than a bishop and deacons receive a less and lower level of Holy Orders than a priest. But they all receive the sacrament of Holy Orders and by their ordination become part of the clergy.

There are no other groups or orders that are part of the hierarchy/clergy of the church - not nuns/sisters, not brothers, not seminarians, not lay ministers/lay people, etc. None of these groups are ordained and they are not part of the clergy. Does this make them less of a contribution to the Church - absolutely not. Each fills a role in the church.

The Roman Collar is only a sign that the person wearing it is a member of the clergy OR an official of the church. Bishop and priest wear the collar as do seminarians and brothers. Why would a deacon (permanent or transitional) not be allowed to wear one either? They are members of the clergy through their ordination; they are members of the hierarchy of the church in conjunction with the bishops and priests. They are deserving of the honor of the roman collar. Canon law states as much.

Two other quick points - People have claimed that they might be confused between a priest and a deacon. I have stood next to deacons immediately after a baptism service, where they had presided and introduced themselves to everyone at the service as “Deacon John Doe” multiple times. As people were leaving the church, I hear numerous times: “Great service Father.” If we want people to understand their religion and faith more, why don’t we train them instead of trying to hide within a debate about the rite of a group of people, allowed under Canon law, to wear a roman collar?

Point two - We have a hard enough time currently trying to get our priest to wear roman collars, why are we trying to stop clergymen from wearing clerical attire? In our parish, I only see our pastor regularly wearing one. Why hide our light under a bushel? We should be proud to see men of God wearing a collar that proclaims exactly that - I am a man of God and proud of it.

The wearing of a collar is not to be cool or to say, “look at me.” It is a matter of being recognized as a clergy person when performing your ministry. It helps to “set the stage” or “open the door” or “to give comfort to a person in need or distress.” I also believe it could save lives besides souls. It is a work uniform just like a police office, prison guard, etc and carries a level of respect in times of trouble. In fact, a deacon in prison or hospital ministry could be saved due to being recognized as a man of God.

Just my opinion.
 
Very good post DIT Bishop is not an order. Currently the Church has 2 major orders, deacons and priests. Bishop, Cardinal and up are offices but they are all priests.

Traditionally there were 7 orders, divided up into 4 minor orders and 3 major orders.

The minor orders were Porter, Reader, Exorcist, Acolyte and the major orders are Subdeacon, Deacon and Priest.

When a seminarian reached a certain point, he was given tonsure. This wasn’t even an order but those who were tonsured were allowed (required) to wear clerical garb (the cassock).

Also traditionally all of the orders below deacon did not wear a collar with his cassock. A deacon wore the collar, but not the sash, priests wore the collar and the sash which was a wide long belt that went around the the waist with the ends hanging down the left side.

Now as to this thread, I say it’s a right for a deacon to wear a collar, they are ordained clergy. Why does it seem that there is some need to laicize the clergy?
 
Are Roman Collars uncomfortable? Maybe they should replace them with something more comfortable or modify them somehow to make them more comfortable. Just a thought.
 
I tend to support a rather different way of identifying the clergy… perhaps because in my position I wind up supervising a lot of postulants.

All seminarians and vowed religious wear the Moravian (Brother’s Collar). Best way to explain this is to look at the fancy collar your parish priest wears, where there is a small strip of white at the top of the collar band that goes all the way around. If you don’t cut the notch out, you have a brother’s collar.

For Deacons, give them the V collar. This was once commonly used in countries like Poland in place of the square notch we think of as the Roman Collar.

Priests wear the square cut notch in their collar.

Bishops wear a complete white collar (sometimes called the Dog Collar) with no black on the collar (but on a black shirt).

Another variation I have seen (back when I was in seminary) some bishops have their deacons wear a tab collar shirt and put a strip of black fabric down the center of the collar insert. I don’t really like it, but it is done.

In another place, Bishops and Priests were in black, with Deacons wearing a dark gray.

All kinds of ways to make the distinction.

Rob+
 
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gelsbern:
Very good post DIT Bishop is not an order. Currently the Church has 2 major orders, deacons and priests. Bishop, Cardinal and up are offices but they are all priests.
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Ur… I’m not sure about that, not in the wake of Vatican II.

Prior to Vatican II, the Episcopate was not an order per-se, as you were not ordained as a bishop. A priest was consecrated to serve as a bishop (a consecration that was lifelong).

In the post-Vatican II era, the word consecrate has fallen into disuse in the Latin Church and has been replaced nearly wholesale by the term Ordination. To ordain is to confer an order. Thus, in the modern Rites of the Church, a Bishop is a distinct order from a Priest. The 1979 Episcopal Book of Common Prayer went so far as to follow Rome’s example, but then confuse things by calling the laying on of hands the “Consecration of the _____” (fill in the blank with deacon, priest, or bishop).

The Eastern Rites, so far as my studies indicate, have always used the term ordination in their liturgies, as they have always viewed the Episcopate as an order.

Rob+
 
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tuopaolo:
Are Roman Collars uncomfortable? Maybe they should replace them with something more comfortable or modify them somehow to make them more comfortable. Just a thought.
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It depends.

When I am working in the hospital on a day to day basis, I wear my cassock. Sometimes - especially in the summer - I wear what is called a Tab Collar shirt beneath it. This is what most parish priests wear on a day to day basis. It has a small slip of plastic that fits in a tunnell around the collar. These are extremely comfortable. I also wear these when I am going to be outdoors for extended periods of time but need to be in clericals. Let’s just say that leading a youth retreat in canoeing is very hard in a cassock!

The more formal collars are very uncomfortable. The formal ones are called neckbands, and the are strips of plastic that wrap all the way around the neck. You start to sweat or chafe or any other number of things… it rides up on your adam’s apple, just generally uncomfortable. I only wear these anymore for very special occassions.

When wearing my cassock in temperate conditions, I wear a white turtleneck beneath it. The notch allows the white of the shirt to stick up and appear like any other collar would, but it is significantly more comfotrable because the fabric breathes and moves with you. A co-worker has suggested that I get some women’s dickies (short turtleneck fronts - ladies, you know what they are) to wear beneath the cassock in the summer.

(Side note - At the moment, I am considering having a new cassock custom made… mine is too tight and doesn’t breathe, so I am thinking about a more Antiochean/Melkite style… if I get one, it may not need a collar beneath.)

Rob+
 
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gelsbern:
Very good post DIT Bishop is not an order. Currently the Church has 2 major orders, deacons and priests. Bishop, Cardinal and up are offices but they are all priests.

Traditionally there were 7 orders, divided up into 4 minor orders and 3 major orders.

The minor orders were Porter, Reader, Exorcist, Acolyte and the major orders are Subdeacon, Deacon and Priest.

Now as to this thread, I say it’s a right for a deacon to wear a collar, they are ordained clergy. Why does it seem that there is some need to laicize the clergy?
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I think you are correct for pre-Vatican II. Post Vatican II, the heirarchy of the church was “revamped” per se. The order of bishop is the only one of the three orders (bishop, priest, & deacon) to receive the fullness of Holy Orders.

It is interesting but most of the 7 orders you mentioned are not bestowed on deacons anymore (and priest too if I am not mistaken). Deacons receive the orders (or institutes) of lecturer and acolyte prior to their ordination as a deacon.

But I completely agree with your last statement about the topic - roman collars. Why does everyone want to secularize the clergy? That is one I don’t understand.

DIT
 
When a seminarian goes into theology, they can wear a collar. So I think an ordained man should too.
 
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DIT:
It is interesting but most of the 7 orders you mentioned are not bestowed on deacons anymore (and priest too if I am not mistaken). Deacons receive the orders (or institutes) of lecturer and acolyte prior to their ordination as a deacon.

DIT
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Ordination to Holy Orders also confers the minor orders. So a Deacon could also function as a sub-deacon, lector, porter or excorcist as well. (for the exorcist, they have the authority, but not the jurisdiction. they would need permission from the Bishop to actually operate in that capacity)
 
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Brendan:
Ordination to Holy Orders also confers the minor orders. So a Deacon could also function as a sub-deacon, lector, porter or excorcist as well. (for the exorcist, they have the authority, but not the jurisdiction. they would need permission from the Bishop to actually operate in that capacity)
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Hi Brendan! How’s formation coming along?

I don’t think that exorcist and porter are minor orders anymore. I believe they have been absorbed into another one of the minor orders. I could be mistaken…
 
Detroit Sue:
Hi Brendan! How’s formation coming along?

…
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Slowly but surely.

With 4 small kids at home, it was never going to be a quick process 😉
 
What are your thoughts about the Religious Brothers who are not ordained wearing the Roman Collar?
 
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thejudeans:
What are your thoughts about the Religious Brothers who are not ordained wearing the Roman Collar?
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The Roman collar is appropriate to all who are in the clerical state.

This includes seminarians and professed religious men who have been ‘tonsured’.
 
Detroit Sue:
Hi Brendan! How’s formation coming along?

I don’t think that exorcist and porter are minor orders anymore. I believe they have been absorbed into another one of the minor orders. I could be mistaken…
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Sub-deacon was eliminated long ago in our local seminary and formation programs. I did’t know that they were still using it in some places.
 
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Guy:
Our bishop wants his deacons to be distinct from priests, but also distinct from the laity. In our diocese deacons will not wear the roman collar, but will wear a black suit with white shirt and black tie.

can’t resist. mormon laity wear white shirt black tie. huh! forgive me if i have offended
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i would have been proud to be a permanent deacon, that was one of my goals. however, circumstances intervened. 5 years ago, i was told that at 58 i was too old to enter the priestly formation. so i just continue plodding on. see where this camino leads me. right now i don’t know anything

if anybody raises a question, yes, my marriage has been annuled my the tribunals of san diego and los angeles.
 
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Brendan:
Ordination to Holy Orders also confers the minor orders. So a Deacon could also function as a sub-deacon, lector, porter or excorcist as well. (for the exorcist, they have the authority, but not the jurisdiction. they would need permission from the Bishop to actually operate in that capacity)
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i would be scared to death to try to be an exorcist. think about the foe.
 
we have permanent deacons at our parish, they provide invaluable work and pastoral care in aberdeen, they also wear the roman collar with pride, sick calls prison chaplains etc, also because of the priest shortage things like the may crownings and proceessions for corpus christi have been returned because the parish priest now has the extra help he needs in the 3 parishes that he covers, so yes they do deserve to wear the roman collar because they are ordained and also they will be visible in their witness to god
 
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