Should homosexual men be allowed to be priests?

[mrS4ntA]

littleitaly:

The point was clearly made. There also was no mention of being tempted alone was a sin. Your statement was this; “I think we need to go back and directly address the original post/question.” No vows were mentioned in the original post either. All though the vow of a priest is to remain chase and live without sin, which would include that of not conducting homosexual acts. You should really take the book of Leviticus more serious then what you are. I can only pray for you that you will someday soon see the truth of what we are on earth for. Peace to you and God bless

I’m confused. Are we on the same page here? You just repeated what you just said without clarifying your stance on being tempted homosexually (i.e. having same-sex attraction).

And yes, the original post was not addressed, at least not directly. Here’s a remainder:

The assumption is that these men, like all priestly candidates, will take a vow of chasitity. I asked a Catholic Answers apologist if homosexual men can become priests. Here was his answer.

Now, I haven’t even made my mind up. I’m just trying to see the discussion steered back to this: should men with same-sex attraction, assuming the vow of chastity remains, be allowed in the priesthood.

Also, you kept mentioning the Scripture as if pointing out that being attracted homosexually itself, without acting on it, is sinful. I got that impression because I kept mentioning the condition that chastity remains, i.e. no homosexual acts involved. Yet you kept pointing to sin. So I’m confused.

 

[Starsweeper]

I’ve been lurking in these forums for some time and I must say I’m rather disappointed by some of the replies made on this thread. Usually everyone here is very orthodox but sometimes on issues of homosexuality which is such a hot button issue I think people have a tendency to become lukewarm to the issue and advocate positions that are a little bit wishy-washy. In my mind, there is no debate here. The Vatican in it’s wisdom has spoken on this issue and has stated many times now that there is no room in the priesthood for men with homosexual tendencies.Proof of this is provided in the links below. No matter what we as individuals think is right it is ultimately not up to us to make these kinds of decisions and must instead place full trust that the Holy Spirit will guide us and our Church in the ways of truth. That’s not to say that I don’t feel the deepest sympathy, love and compassion towards those suffering from SSA for I truly do. I try to keep them always in my prayers. But admission to the priesthood is not a right and the Vatican has spoken, so therefore: Case Closed.

Links: lifesite.net/ldn/2002/sep/02092008.html

      [lifesite.net/ldn/2002/dec/02120307.html](http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/dec/02120307.html)

      [ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=320413&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=Gay+priests&pgnu=1&groupnum=0](http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=320413&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=Gay+priests&pgnu=1&groupnum=0)

     [ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=289666&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=Gay+priests&pgnu=1&groupnum=0](http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=289666&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=Gay+priests&pgnu=1&groupnum=0)

 

[iserve]

Starsweeper:

IThe Vatican in it’s wisdom has spoken on this issue and has stated many times now that there is no room in the priesthood for men with homosexual tendencies.Proof of this is provided in the links below. No matter what we as individuals think is right it is ultimately not up to us to make these kinds of decisions and must instead place full trust that the Holy Spirit will guide us and our Church in the ways of truth. That’s not to say that I don’t feel the deepest sympathy, love and compassion towards those suffering from SSA for I truly do. I try to keep them always in my prayers. But admission to the priesthood is not a right and the Vatican has spoken, so therefore: Case Closed.

Starsweeper- You are right about the Vatican’s pronouncements, but don’t take them at their word. The Vatican is fully aware of the HUGE number of homosexually oriented priests it has, and has taken steps to eliminate only those who have dared to try to pull children into their lifestyle. The rest, even those who are obviously outspoken and leading others into this sin in their words and deeds, are allowed to continue on. I am very sure of this, as I have seen it, even with supposedly good bishops.

Also,for an inspection of US seminaries this year, there was supposed to be a concentrated look at this problem at this early level, but I heard that they had backed -off the hard -line tactics in favor of the more luke-warm pronouncements like you are lamenting. Only if the faithful laity speak out continuously is this likely to change. Alas, I fear that we will not see this practice implemented in our lifetimes due to the cowardice of our leaders, and I believe that the only hope lies in the next generation after these deviants have long since exited the stage!

 

[LoneRanger]

if for no other reason than to reduce the risk… the chance for problems are just greatly reduced…

there are other ways to serve God and his church…

 

[trailblazer]

Sexual orientation (keeping in mind that orientation is different from activity) has no place in whether or not someone becomes a priest. I would gladly have either as my pastor or confessor. Homosexuals and heterosexuals both have great contributions to make and both have personal struggles. On the other hand, both have potential to have preverted desires and may become pedophiles; the mental trauma is equally as bad regardless of whether it happens to a boy or girl. Both need continuous spiritual direction with a honest and spiritual advisor. Both need dicipline from the Bishop regarding anything that crosses the line, even if its consenting adults.

 

[littleitaly]

I’m confused. Are we on the same page here? You just repeated what you just said without clarifying your stance on being tempted homosexually (i.e. having same-sex attraction).

And yes, the original post was not addressed, at least not directly. Here’s a remainder:

The assumption is that these men, like all priestly candidates, will take a vow of chasitity. I asked a Catholic Answers apologist if homosexual men can become priests. Here was his answer.

Now, I haven’t even made my mind up. I’m just trying to see the discussion steered back to this: should men with same-sex attraction, assuming the vow of chastity remains, be allowed in the priesthood.

Also, you kept mentioning the Scripture as if pointing out that being attracted homosexually itself, without acting on it, is sinful. I got that impression because I kept mentioning the condition that chastity remains, i.e. no homosexual acts involved. Yet you kept pointing to sin. So I’m confused.

You can not get any clearer then the answer to your question as being… No, no man can justifiably work for Christ in any church if he has the remote thought of homosexuallity in his mind. The Holy Spirit made it clear to Moses that it is a sin. Chasity alone is not acceptable to the Lord. He insist that all of us, not just the priest, act our lives out with pure thoughts, that is without sin. One of the best ways to overcome temptations of all kinds is to pray the moment that temptation comes about. And to continue praying until the thought of that temptation is gone from your mind and you are back focusing on our Lord, that is the way he wishes for us to live our lives. I hope this helps you out.

 

[littleitaly]

trailblazer:

Sexual orientation (keeping in mind that orientation is different from activity) has no place in whether or not someone becomes a priest. I would gladly have either as my pastor or confessor. Homosexuals and heterosexuals both have great contributions to make and both have personal struggles. On the other hand, both have potential to have preverted desires and may become pedophiles; the mental trauma is equally as bad regardless of whether it happens to a boy or girl. Both need continuous spiritual direction with a honest and spiritual advisor. Both need dicipline from the Bishop regarding anything that crosses the line, even if its consenting adults.

Hello Trailblazer, Your statement is basicly telling God that He needs to compromise with those of you who wish to live in sin to go ahead and preach to the world and that in turn would be telling everyone else that it is ok to sin on this planet because the Holy Spirit said it is ok. Not. The Holy Spirit will never compromise with a sinner and even one that insists on doing so. Sorry if this matter offends you, but if you really put it to thought, A sinner will always feel offended by the Laws of life that has been handed down to Moses and our Lord, Jesus. This is because it doesn’t fit into their sinful ways of living and therefor fustrating that indivdual. This will also cause rebellious action. Instead of being rebellious, one should really take the time to focus on Leviticus Chapter 18, verse 22. Live it, breathe it, and sleep on it. Let that writing be inbedded in your thoughts so you will not have to accept sin in your life. Peace to you and God bless.

 

[littleitaly]

Starsweeper:

I’ve been lurking in these forums for some time and I must say I’m rather disappointed by some of the replies made on this thread. Usually everyone here is very orthodox but sometimes on issues of homosexuality which is such a hot button issue I think people have a tendency to become lukewarm to the issue and advocate positions that are a little bit wishy-washy. In my mind, there is no debate here. The Vatican in it’s wisdom has spoken on this issue and has stated many times now that there is no room in the priesthood for men with homosexual tendencies.Proof of this is provided in the links below. No matter what we as individuals think is right it is ultimately not up to us to make these kinds of decisions and must instead place full trust that the Holy Spirit will guide us and our Church in the ways of truth. That’s not to say that I don’t feel the deepest sympathy, love and compassion towards those suffering from SSA for I truly do. I try to keep them always in my prayers. But admission to the priesthood is not a right and the Vatican has spoken, so therefore: Case Closed.

Links: lifesite.net/ldn/2002/sep/02092008.html

lifesite.net/ldn/2002/dec/02120307.html

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=320413&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=Gay+priests&pgnu=1&groupnum=0

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=289666&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=Gay+priests&pgnu=1&groupnum=0

As much as you would like to see the case close, it will not until those within the church speak out against it as well. It is extremely important that we the people speak out about this sin within and outside of the church. The Vatican can not handle this problem on their own. This is , as you said, quote “…and must instead place full trust that the Holy Spirit will guide us and our Church in the ways of truth.” why we must participate. You, me, and all of us that worship the Holy Spirit make up the Church. Peace to you.

 

[mrS4ntA]

littleitaly:

You can not get any clearer then the answer to your question as being… No, no man can justifiably work for Christ in any church if he has the remote thought of homosexuallity in his mind. The Holy Spirit made it clear to Moses that it is a sin. Chasity alone is not acceptable to the Lord. He insist that all of us, not just the priest, act our lives out with pure thoughts, that is without sin. One of the best ways to overcome temptations of all kinds is to pray the moment that temptation comes about. And to continue praying until the thought of that temptation is gone from your mind and you are back focusing on our Lord, that is the way he wishes for us to live our lives. I hope this helps you out.

Are you now saying that ALL heterosexual priests NEVER EVER had an impure thought about a woman entering the mind? I can’t believe that. As holy as the office of the priesthood is, priests are just humans who have their weakneses. Time to time again they fall like you and me. Even saints who were priests sometimes confessed of their struggle with impure minds.

Entertaining impure thoughts is indeed sinful, no matter if it is homosexual or heterosexual. To use your words, I can equally say, “No, no man can justifiably work for Christ in any church if he has the remote thought of heterosexual impurity in his mind. Jesus made it clear it is a sin. (“you commit adultery with her in your mind”).”

You seem to confuse my terming “homosexuality” as someone who constantly cannot help himself but being lustful. They are just like heterosexual, who instead of being potentially capable of being impurely tempted with the opposite sex, it’s the same one. Now, I’m not saying that it’s a trivial matter for priests to have impure thoughts; I’m saying that it happens, and yes, we do need the grace of God to resist those tempations.

Now, I haven’t even made my mind up on this matter. Some reasoned that we should not on the basis that the priesthood and the Holy Order provide an environment that is more prune to temptations. But I cannot accept your argument based on what you just have said.

Yes, indeed that “No, no man can justifiably work for Christ in any church if he has the remote thought of homosexuallity in his mind.” but neither is there a place for heterosexual impure thoughts, of hate, of revenge, of pride and or about every sin there is. But priests works out their salvation in fear and trembling just like us. And if a homosexual-oriented (in term of his potential temptation regarding purity) can value chastity as well as a good heterosexual priest, I’m interested to see how this discussion will go …

 

[turboEDvo]

Monicathree:

That being said, it would be nice to get a group of old school tough ol’ manly men as priests, you know what I mean.

You mean like the Dean of Loyola High when my dad was there? He was disciplining two boys for slamming lockers. Did he give them detention? No, he grabbed them by their collars, picked them up and slammed them into the lockers. That taught them right quick. Is that what you meant by tough ol’ manly men priests?

Eamon

 

[iserve]

mrS4ntA:

Are you now saying that ALL heterosexual priests NEVER EVER had an impure thought about a woman entering the mind? I can’t believe that. As holy as the office of the priesthood is, priests are just humans who have their weakneses. Time to time again they fall like you and me. Even saints who were priests sometimes confessed of their struggle with impure minds.

This is a very tired argument, since it involves the canard of two wrongs making a right. Homosexuality is disordered thinking, it is unnatural and should not be swirling through the mind of a man whose sole intent is to bring others along with himself, to the Father in Heaven. There is no argument for this in Catholicism. Many Protestant denominations that have kept close to Catholic rituals have allowed for “plea bargains” like yours. You would be very comfortable in that welcoming environment, because this question is not negotiable in Catholicism. Besides, we are all learning the results of tolerance, which has nearly destroyed our faith. It will take down the faith of those other denominations as well. God gives us the law for our own sake, not for His, and certainly not to ruin the “comfort” of people who disagree with Him. If you want to take a chance, do it on your own, don’ t try to bring down everyone else with you. This is the smoke of Satan!

 

[mrS4ntA]

iserve:

This is a very tired argument, since it involves the canard of two wrongs making a right.

Did I say that it makes it right?

Putting words in other’s mouth … ad hominem attack; I can take better than that, you know…

If I rememebr correctly, this is what I said:

Yes, indeed that “No, no man can justifiably work for Christ in any church if he has the remote thought of homosexuallity in his mind.” but neither is there a place for heterosexual impure thoughts, of hate, of revenge, of pride and or about every sin there is. But priests works out their salvation in fear and trembling just like us. And if a homosexual-oriented (in term of his potential temptation regarding purity) can value chastity as well as a good heterosexual priest, I’m interested to see how this discussion will go …

 

[Laurel]

Yes…as long as they don’t act on it just like a heterosexual priest should not either. People are humans not robots…I am sure most priests have felt “tingly” feelings at some time in their lives.

 

[Deacon2006]

If by homosexual you mean these men have come to believe that God created them to be the sexual complement of another man? Then of course these men are completely unqualified to be priests.

A true priest must be able to view himself in the spiritual fecundity of a nuptial embrace as the masculine in the persona of the bride groom who marries the bride, the church.

This is the way God wanted it, this is the way it must be.

God Bless

 

[mrS4ntA]

Deacon2006:

If by homosexual you mean these men have come to believe that God created them to be the sexual complement of another man?

There lies the problem. I think many of us in this discussion operate on different meanings of the word “homosexual.” Hence, the frustration of unrelated responses and missing of the points.

I think for the sake of discussion we’ll say homosexual are those with ‘same-sex attracion’, while “gay” is one living the lifestyle. Fair enough?

 

[littleitaly]

mrS4ntA:

Are you now saying that ALL heterosexual priests NEVER EVER had an impure thought about a woman entering the mind? I can’t believe that. As holy as the office of the priesthood is, priests are just humans who have their weakneses. Time to time again they fall like you and me. Even saints who were priests sometimes confessed of their struggle with impure minds.

Entertaining impure thoughts is indeed sinful, no matter if it is homosexual or heterosexual. To use your words, I can equally say, “No, no man can justifiably work for Christ in any church if he has the remote thought of heterosexual impurity in his mind. Jesus made it clear it is a sin. (“you commit adultery with her in your mind”).”

You seem to confuse my terming “homosexuality” as someone who constantly cannot help himself but being lustful. They are just like heterosexual, who instead of being potentially capable of being impurely tempted with the opposite sex, it’s the same one. Now, I’m not saying that it’s a trivial matter for priests to have impure thoughts; I’m saying that it happens, and yes, we do need the grace of God to resist those tempations.

Now, I haven’t even made my mind up on this matter. Some reasoned that we should not on the basis that the priesthood and the Holy Order provide an environment that is more prune to temptations. But I cannot accept your argument based on what you just have said.

Yes, indeed that “No, no man can justifiably work for Christ in any church if he has the remote thought of homosexuallity in his mind.” but neither is there a place for heterosexual impure thoughts, of hate, of revenge, of pride and or about every sin there is. But priests works out their salvation in fear and trembling just like us. And if a homosexual-oriented (in term of his potential temptation regarding purity) can value chastity as well as a good heterosexual priest, I’m interested to see how this discussion will go …

Hello mrS4ntA, No, I am not confused. I ask you to take the time to read your past posts that you have made. You have a tendancy to create issues that were never mentioned in my post. This is typical of those who refuse to stick with the one issue that a person had originally started. Again I say to you that the Holy Spirit made it clear that no man can serve the Lord while living in sin. No man is to lay with another as with a woman. Such a thing is an abomination to the Lord. If you wish to talk about a person that is of heterosexual in nature that is a sinner of lustful thoughts then maybe you should start another thread on that issue. Lust for the flesh of any kind is a sin. Continue to read the Bible and focus on peace and charity towards your neighbors, and above all love the Holy Spirit with all your heart,soul, and mind. Avoid the sin of lust be it towards man, woman, or beast. I will continue to pray for you. God bless

 

[Kielbasi]

**I don’t think there is any way to stop homosexual men from being ordained, **if they really want to.

Certainly, an open homosexual would certainly be removed from the priesthood in a hurry, but I think its pretty self obvious that an unknown number of today’s priests and bishops are definitely homosexual. In my previous position in driving a cab, I have picked up a man who I definitely knew to be a priest in a location which would highly indicate that proclivity.

He was being as discrete as he could be, but the point is that there is no practical way to root it out.

 

[jjwilkman]

this cootie is going to spout off.

my choice is not there. i would have to say “absolutamente no!”.

aren’t most cases of abuse between priests and boys?

where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

 

[mrS4ntA]

littleitaly:

… Again I say to you that the Holy Spirit made it clear that no man can serve the Lord while living in sin. No man is to lay with another as with a woman. Such a thing is an abomination to the Lord. …

O, dear goodness. That, my brethren, I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree! If I recall correctly, the discussion of this thread, and the issue that I brought up, is only about the ordination of a man who have same-sex attraction, assuming the vow of chastity remains true. That is, the man DOES NOT live in sin. That is, the man does NOT live a homosexual lifestyle. That is, the man does NOT engage in any sexual activity whatsoever, which is what all priest is called to do anyway.

Now, could you please read my posts again and show me where I assumed the man is living in sin (i.e. living the homosexual lifestyle or engaging in a sexual act of any kind)? Because I don’t recall I did.

Lastly, I apologise if my posts have given you the confusion and the impression of incharitble attitudes. I certainly did not intend to do so. That’s one of the problem of this media.

 

[littleitaly]

**I don’t think there is any way to stop homosexual men from being ordained, **if they really want to.

Certainly, an open homosexual would certainly be removed from the priesthood in a hurry, but I think its pretty self obvious that an unknown number of today’s priests and bishops are definitely homosexual. In my previous position in driving a cab, I have picked up a man who I definitely knew to be a priest in a location which would highly indicate that proclivity.

He was being as discrete as he could be, but the point is that there is no practical way to root it out.

This is true, being that one who wishes to do that type of work and yet knows that they would not be able to under the situation of their personal lifestyle. People in general will do, or in this case hide their personal life to get the job they want. Sad but true. People really need to take a closer look at the way the Holy Spirit wishes for us to live our lives and not to bend the rules so they can please Satan. We can minimize the problem when we the people of the church become knowledgable of this issue and confront that person privately, reminding him of his viow that he took to the Lord and that he is in a position to set a good example, not a bad one. If he does not attempt to seek help, then the next step is to go above his head to work on getting him removed.