Should liberals leave the catholic church?

[Strummer]

So give us some concrete examples.

Sorry, vern, but I think you meant to address that to Ani_Ibi who said:

Now some folks claiming to be Catholic may be divided against themselves and divided against Catholics on Magisterial teaching. But, since their rebellion has already led them to the exit door, it is inaccurate to say that they are still Catholics. Saying that they are still Catholics does not make them so.

What “specifics” were expressed there? And yet you pass that by and go after my general statement. A tastier looking cherry?

Maybe you could just accept that we are addressing general terms here. You could even offer a modicum of respect and accept that as I expressed that I was speaking from personal experience and such things have indeed occurred.

I have a day to get on with and do not desire to search back through the archives of where I’ve had similar arguments on this and other boards. Furthermore your posts seem to express either a feigned or willful ignorance which could be interpreted as disingenous. I think it best for us both to take your own advice: If I do not quarrel with you, there is no quarrel.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sorry, vern, but I think you meant to address that to Ani_Ibi who said:

Nice try, but no cigar – I was talking to you.

What “specifics” were expressed there? And yet you pass that by and go after my general statement. A tastier looking cherry?a

Why don’t you ask him? I’ve never found him reluctant to be specific when asked.

Maybe you could just accept that we are addressing general terms here.

One must have specifics before one can have generals. If there is no specific event, then one cannot claim a general trend.

You could even offer a modicum of respect and accept that as I expressed that I was speaking from personal experience and such things have indeed occurred.

Then you should be able to provide specifics.

I have a day to get on with and do not desire to search back through the archives of where I’ve had similar arguments on this and other boards. Furthermore your posts seem to express either a feigned or willful ignorance which could be interpreted as disingenous.

Without specifics, what can you expect?

I think it best for us both to take your own advice: If I do not quarrel with you, there is no quarrel.

Even earlier that would have been good advice.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Why don’t you ask him?

I’m a her.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m a her.

How do you know that? Be specific.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

How do you know that?

I looked.
vern humphrey:

Be specific.

At 18:25 EST.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I looked.

At 18:25 EST.

Now, see - specifics aren’t that hard, are they?

 

[wutru]

Liberalism
newadvent.org/cathen/09212a.htm

CONDEMNATION OF LIBERALISM BY THE CHURCH
By proclaiming man’s absolute autonomy in the intellectual, moral and social order, Liberalism denies, at least practically, God and supernatural religion. If carried out logically, it leads even to a theoretical denial of God, by putting deified mankind in place of God. It has been censured in the condemnations of Rationalism and Naturalism

Quanta Cura
CONDEMNING CURRENT ERRORS
Encyclical of Pope Pius IX promulgated on December 8, 1864.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanta.htm

We raised Our voice, and in many published Encyclical Letters and Allocutions delivered in Consistory, and other Apostolic Letters, we condemned the chief errors of this most unhappy age, and we excited your admirable episcopal vigilance, and we again and again admonished and exhorted all sons of the Catholic Church, to us most dear, that they should altogether abhor and flee from the contagion of so dire a pestilence.

 

[estesbob]

Maybe you could just accept that we are addressing general terms here. You could even offer a modicum of respect and accept that as I expressed that I was speaking from personal experience and such things have indeed occurred.

.

Well then thre can be no discussion. You claim conservatives interpert the Magestrium in their own way but give us no examples. Instead we have to just take your word for it based on your pesonal experience thay you refuse to share with us… And since we wont do that we lack respect for you… Round and round we go-where we stop nobody knowa…

 

[aimee]

re:should liberals leave the catholic church?

I think a better question might be…feeling as they do…why do they stay

 

[anamchara]

Liberalism
newadvent.org/cathen/09212a.htmCONDEMNATION OF LIBERALISM BY THE CHURCH
By proclaiming man’s absolute autonomy in the intellectual, moral and social order, Liberalism denies, at least practically, God and supernatural religion. If carried out logically, it leads even to a theoretical denial of God, by putting deified mankind in place of God. It has been censured in the condemnations of Rationalism and Naturalism

Well since we are cherry picking and growing our own tree Here’s what I picked from your first link here:

The word liberal is derived from the Latin liber, free, and up to the end of the eighteenth century signified only “worthy of a free man”, so that people spoke of “liberal arts”, “liberal occupations”. Later the term was applied also to those qualities of intellect and of character, which were considered an ornament becoming those who occupied a higher social position on account of their wealth and education. Thus liberal, got the meaning of intellectually independent, broad-minded, magnanimous, frank, open, and genial. Again Liberalism may also mean a political system or tendency opposed to centralization and absolutism. In this sense Liberalism is not at variance with the spirit and teaching of the Catholic Church

newadvent.org/cathen/09212a.htm

Your quote is from 1870 from the Vatican council.

 

[anamchara]

Well then thre can be no discussion. You claim conservatives interpert the Magestrium in their own way but give us no examples. Instead we have to just take your word for it based on your pesonal experience thay you refuse to share with us… And since we wont do that we lack respect for you… Round and round we go-where we stop nobody knowa…

I think bringing up old Popes is a good example of interpreting Magestrium in your own way. It’s a tactic many traditionalist use on here.

For me it’s more about how people go about sharing the faith and trying to “instruct the ignorant” it becomes more “force the ignorant” or “judge the ignorant”

I find many arch conservatives seem to only focus on one aspect of the Spiritual works of Mercy “Admonish the sinner”

Now this has been my experience and you can believe it or not that’s your choice but I’m confident that many would agree with me and wouldn’t need examples.

If you would feel better about having examples then as I’m browsing or find myself in a thread that is a good example, I’d be happy to link you in a private message.

 

[Julianna]

Your quote is from 1870 from the Vatican council.

Well that certainly explains things in a different light. Hmmmm 1870. Just think, anamchara…those were the good ol days. We weren’t allowed to vote, own land, get credit or have control of our own assets (monetary and otherwise).

Glad to know…“We’ve come a long way, baby!”

 

[anamchara]

re:should liberals leave the catholic church?

I think a better question might be…feeling as they do…why do they stay

This is my on going question as to why traditionalist stay in the Church, they never seem to be happy with anything Vatican II. A few would say it’s how VII was implemented not the council itself that is their problem. I think they just don’t like holding my hands in Church

 

[anamchara]

Your quote is from 1870 from the Vatican council.

Well that certainly explains things in a different light. Hmmmm 1870. Just think, anamchara…those were the good ol days. We weren’t allowed to vote, own land, get credit or have control of our own assets (monetary and otherwise).

Glad to know…“We’ve come a long way, baby!”

I think the word might have meant something a bit different back then be careful though the council Pope police will show up and tell us how everything that was written by a Pope in the past can never be undone or ignore or whatever it is they say

 

[rlg94086]

As is any “reality” you propose.

But oh how many good folks such as yourself and countless others come to slightly different interpretations of those views?

I would agree with that but add the caveat that far too many people (primarily “conservatives” in my experience) believe that their own subjective interpreations ARE the views of the Church. They have cherry-picked statements, writings, and quotations that support their view and ignored others of equal standing that do not. And, because the Church is the ultimate source for all of this, including their cherry-picked stuff, they believe they speak for the Church.
.

Hi Strummer,

It is interesting that your experience diverges so much from mine. I am a convert, who has become more “conservative” over time, as I have studied and understood the teaching of the Church. In my experience, it is the “liberals” whose subjective interpretations are very much against clear Catholic teaching.

Some concrete examples, since you and anamchara seem unable to provide any:

Artificial Birth Control - clearly not acceptable, but I have heard many a “liberal” defend it.

Homosexual relationships - someone with SSA is to remain chaste, but that doesn’t seem to be acceptable to most of the “liberal” Catholics I have encountered.

Eucharistic rubrics - I was actually invited by a very “liberal” OCP composer and cantor to join them in communion presided by the renowned cantor (a layman) and before my confirmation.

Female clergy - many, many “liberals” are in favor of women priests, though it is very clear that this can never be (JPII said as much. I don’t have the exact quote, but it was basically something he said he did not have the ability to allow.)

In general, a lot of sins are deemed acceptable by “liberals” because of their misunderstanding of the Church’s teaching regarding Conscience. The ultimate theological cherry-picking.

I agree that sometimes “conservatives” are not the friendliest in pointing these errors out; however, I have found similar approaches by “liberals.” Charity is an issue for all of us. All that said, I agree with Ani Ibi that I don’t want anyone to leave the Church. I just pray that more people pray and learn. And most importantly, that they take the focus off of themselves and humbly submit to the teaching of Christ and the Church.

God bless,

Robert

 

[anamchara]

Hi Strummer,

Some concrete examples, since you and anamchara seem unable to provide any:

Robert

umm I actually I did give examples of problems I’ve seen and a few decided to ignore the post I guess Here’s what I wrote:

Many of the things that arch conservatives consider “happy clappy” and that’s the word they invented and like to use to mock… like holding hands during the Lords Prayer, allowing female altar servers, passing of the peace, enjoying liturgical music of today and not 60 yrs ago, youth masses, is what keeps the warmth in my opinion.

I have found far righters to be cold and more like pharisees then anything resembling the love of Christ.

I also wrote this:

've been accused of every ism there is and at one time called a heretic because I believed my mom is going to heaven (she’s Protestant)

Apparently that wasn’t specific enough for them, I guess they wanted who, what when and how

And I wrote:

I do believe you can win people to your side more easily by gentle persuasion and flattery than by hostile confrontations. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I see more hostile approach in apologetics and other areas of the forum than the other.

I would ask next time that you read all my posts before jumping the gun and quickly agreeing with other posters.

 

[rlg94086]

umm I actually I did give examples of problems I’ve seen and a few decided to ignore the post I guess Here’s what I wrote:

I also wrote this:

Apparently that wasn’t specific enough for them, I guess they wanted who, what when and how

And I wrote:

I would ask next time that you read all my posts before jumping the gun and quickly agreeing with other posters.

Hi anamchara,

I did read your posts and did not “jump the gun.” The “happy-clappy” post was about personal opinions of liturgical norms, not about subjective interpretation of Catholic teaching. A couple of the things you listed, such as hand-holding and “passing of peace” can actually be abuse of the rubrics of the Mass (e.g. the priest is not to leave the sanctuary to go among the pews to give the sign of peace); others, such as music, are personal preferences. The Church gives a primacy of place to more reverent music such as Gregorian Chant, the organ and polyphonic choir, but she does not forbid the “folk” Mass.

Regarding the “isms” and flys/honey, I happen to agree with you, as I’m sure you may have noticed in my post. We all need to work on our charity.

Can you give some examples of personal interpretation of the Magisterial teachings of the Church by conservatives, that you disagree with? That’s what my post referred to.

Pax,
Robert

 

[anamchara]

Hi anamchara,

I did read your posts and did not “jump the gun.” The “happy-clappy” post was about personal opinions of liturgical norms, not about subjective interpretation of Catholic teaching. A couple of the things you listed, such as hand-holding and “passing of peace” can actually be abuse of the rubrics of the Mass (e.g. the priest is not to leave the sanctuary to go among the pews to give the sign of peace); others, such as music, are personal preferences. The Church gives a primacy of place to more reverent music such as Gregorian Chant, the organ and polyphonic choir, but she does not forbid the “folk” Mass.

Regarding the “isms” and flys/honey, I happen to agree with you, as I’m sure you may have noticed in my post. We all need to work on our charity.

Can you give some examples of personal interpretation of the Magisterial teachings of the Church by conservatives, that you disagree with? That’s what my post referred to.

Pax,
Robert

Thank you for being so civil I have to disagree those are not abuses in the rubrics as I have seen. Although I do realize traditionalist have interpreted them as such. That would be a good example of what strummer brought up about different views and interpretations.

If you noticed from my posts I was referring to how people behave not about teachings of the Church and interpretations so I am not sure why you are asking me to give examples. I think you’ve confused me with strummer. I agree with strummer though. The topic of interpretations makes me want to pull my hair out.

As I said earlier, I don’t believe liberals should leave the Church and I pray for this but I also pray that people who have harden their hearts to only the letter of law will one day soften.

 

[rlg94086]

Thank you for being so civil I have to disagree those are not abuses in the rubrics as I have seen. Although I do realize traditionalist have interpreted them as such. That would be a good example of what strummer brought up about different views and interpretations.

If you noticed from my posts I was referring to how people behave not about teachings of the Church and interpretations so I am not sure why you are asking me to give examples. I think you’ve confused me with strummer. I agree with strummer though. The topic of interpretations makes me want to pull my hair out.

As I said earlier, I don’t believe liberals should leave the Church and I pray for this but I also pray that people who have harden their hearts to only the letter of law will one day soften.

Sorry if I confused you with Strummer. Do you believe that the list of specifics I gave (ABC, homosexuality, women priests, improper “ecumenical” Eucharistic celebration w/o priests) are just differences in interpretation? If so, how?

(btw…the liturgical examples I gave are not “interpretations.” Have you read the GIRM?)

 

[anamchara]

Do you believe that the list of specifics I gave (ABC, homosexuality, women priests, improper “ecumenical” Eucharistic celebration w/o priests) are just differences in interpretation? If so, how?

(btw…the liturgical examples I gave are not “interpretations.” Have you read the GIRM?)

No I don’t believe those are just differences in interpretations, although I’m not so sure about “ecumenical” celebration. Can you point out a post where I might have even came close to implying this? What is with all the questions? Why do I feel I am on trial?

I’ve made it clear I was talking about behavior. Why did you come in here and assume since we are using the word liberal that we must be talking about homosexuals, women priests?