Should liberals leave the catholic church?

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😛 I am not accusing you of anything. I was asking you what you thought. Strummer had made this statement in a previous post:
far too many people (primarily “conservatives” in my experience) believe that their own subjective interpreations ARE the views of the Church. They have cherry-picked statements, writings, and quotations that support their view and ignored others of equal standing that do not. And, because the Church is the ultimate source for all of this, including their cherry-picked stuff, they believe they speak for the Church.
I gave examples of how my experience was different. In your last post you said:
I think you’ve confused me with strummer.** I agree with strummer though.** The topic of interpretations makes me want to pull my hair out.
So, I asked if you thought my examples were a matter of interpretation. 🤷 It wasn’t an attack or a trial. If you prefer not to engage in civil discourse about the differences between “liberals” and “conservatives,” then I’m okay with that.

Sheesh. 😛
No I don’t believe those are just differences in interpretations, although I’m not so sure about “ecumenical” celebration. Can you point out a post where I might have even came close to implying this? What is with all the questions? Why do I feel I am on trial?

I’ve made it clear I was talking about behavior. Why did you come in here and assume since we are using the word liberal that we must be talking about homosexuals, women priests? :confused:
 
😛 I am not accusing you of anything. I was asking you what you thought. Strummer had made this statement in a previous post:

I gave examples of how my experience was different. In your last post you said:

So, I asked if you thought my examples were a matter of interpretation. 🤷 It wasn’t an attack or a trial. If you prefer not to engage in civil discourse about the differences between “liberals” and “conservatives,” then I’m okay with that.

Sheesh. 😛
I see, I guess I read your words wrong. Online forums like this has made me jumpy. I normally hang out in the club forums and spirituality. I’m too soft for this part of the world 🙂 Yes I do agree with strummer 😉 but I don’t believe he is referring to your list from earlier.
 
I see, I guess I read your words wrong. Online forums like this has made me jumpy. I normally hang out in the club forums and spirituality. I’m too soft for this part of the world 🙂 Yes I do agree with strummer 😉 but I don’t believe he is referring to your list from earlier.
Fair enough. I will wait for Strummer’s response. As, I have said, my experience has been that liberals take much more license in interpreting the teaching of the Church in a way that suits their personal desires/feelings. I have chosen to do my best to follow the Church and obey her teachings.

It has been a pleasure discussing it with you. I hope you continue to grow in your love of Christ and His Church.

Pax,
Robert
 
Some concrete examples, since you and anamchara seem unable to provide any:

Artificial Birth Control…Homosexual relationships…Eucharistic rubrics…Female clergy…
Though hardly an expert myself, I’ve never heard/read any “liberal” Catholic state that such things were a matter of interpretation of the magisterium. They all know what the Church teaches. Rather, it is a matter that their God-given intellect and free will have lead them to disagree with the Church’s conlusions. I’ve encountered them stating things such as “it wounds their hearts that the Church continues hold views which” they see as outdated or contrary to modern scientific discoveries/understandings or simply built upon weak arguments. Libs are not saying conservatives are misinterpreting the Church, quite the contrary. They’d be saying that the cons have got a hold on Her and wish they would let Her fully express Christ’s Love. What and How this “love” would be expressed IS a matter of interpretation and theology and philosophy and too big a discussion for this already overwrought thread.

But let’s get to a real example. One came to me in the hours since my previous post: the death penalty. I’ve encountered many, many conservatives who claim their own support of the death penalty is sanctioned by the Church. They even go so far as to cite the Catechism, paragraph 2267, saying: “the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”. While this is indeed part of the Catechism, they ignore (hence my “cherry picking” accusation) the rest of the paragraph which concludes, “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’”
In general, a lot of sins are deemed acceptable by “liberals” because of their misunderstanding of the Church’s teaching regarding Conscience. The ultimate theological cherry-picking.
As I understand it, the Church allows that one may not necessarily, even with a willing heart, come to the same intellectual conclusions as divined by the Church itself. She does not condemn the honest, devoted Truth-seeker who takes a different path in their mind. Expounding and promulgating these ideas is another matter. Is your understanding different? I’d be interested in hearing it. Honest and sincere.
I agree that sometimes “conservatives” are not the friendliest in pointing these errors out; however, I have found similar approaches by “liberals.” Charity is an issue for all of us.
And that, I believe, is the point anamchara was trying to make with her “warm fires” vs “cold stone” metaphor, though I’ve never seen libs behave so uncharitably unless they were either a) somewhat young or b) beset by several conservatives “attacking” them. On the other hand, I am not saying that all conservatives are more prone to be mean. Far from it. But to add a new wrinkle to this, I’ve noticed from my personal dealings on this and other boards like it, that if there was one group from which one would be more likely to receive an uncharitable response, it would be from a convert from a more evangelical (Pentacostal or non-denom) church than from a Mainstream Protestant convert or, certainly, from a cradle Catholic. I can only guess that this might be a learned behavior pattern garnered from years of “perceived persecution” and/or a psychological desire for a great deal of structure from their religion. But that’s just a guess.
 
Though hardly an expert myself, I’ve never heard/read any “liberal” Catholic state that such things were a matter of interpretation of the magisterium.

They all know what the Church teaches. Rather, it is a matter that their God-given intellect and free will have lead them to disagree with the Church’s conlusions.

I’ve encountered them stating things such as “it wounds their hearts that the Church continues hold views which” they see as outdated or contrary to modern scientific discoveries/understandings or simply built upon weak arguments. Libs are not saying conservatives are misinterpreting the Church, quite the contrary. They’d be saying that the cons have got a hold on Her and wish they would let Her fully express Christ’s Love. What and How this “love” would be expressed IS a matter of interpretation and theology and philosophy and too big a discussion for this already overwrought thread.

But let’s get to a real example. One came to me in the hours since my previous post: the death penalty. I’ve encountered many, many conservatives who claim their own support of the death penalty is sanctioned by the Church. They even go so far as to cite the Catechism, paragraph 2267, saying: “the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”. While this is indeed part of the Catechism, they ignore (hence my “cherry picking” accusation) the rest of the paragraph which concludes, “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’”

As I understand it, the Church allows that one may not necessarily, even with a willing heart, come to the same intellectual conclusions as divined by the Church itself. She does not condemn the honest, devoted Truth-seeker who takes a different path in their mind. Expounding and promulgating these ideas is another matter. Is your understanding different? I’d be interested in hearing it. Honest and sincere.

And that, I believe, is the point anamchara was trying to make with her “warm fires” vs “cold stone” metaphor, though I’ve never seen libs behave so uncharitably unless they were either a) somewhat young or b) beset by several conservatives “attacking” them. On the other hand, I am not saying that all conservatives are more prone to be mean. Far from it. But to add a new wrinkle to this, I’ve noticed from my personal dealings on this and other boards like it, that if there was one group from which one would be more likely to receive an uncharitable response, it would be from a convert from a more evangelical (Pentacostal or non-denom) church than from a Mainstream Protestant convert or, certainly, from a cradle Catholic. I can only guess that this might be a learned behavior pattern garnered from years of “perceived persecution” and/or a psychological desire for a great deal of structure from their religion. But that’s just a guess.
Excellent post Strummer! 😃
 
Excellent post Strummer! 😃
I love cherries:p . I think that the Church needs to break up. Have progressive Catholics allow married priests, women priests etc… traditional Catholics can have scapulars, statues and whatever else they want. It would be so much more convenient. There would be no more complaining. The church won’t bend. It should take a census.
Let us progressives leave in peace.
 
I love cherries:p . I think that the Church needs to break up. Have progressive Catholics allow married priests, women priests etc… traditional Catholics can have scapulars, statues and whatever else they want. It would be so much more convenient. There would be no more complaining. The church won’t bend. It should take a census.
Let us progressives leave in peace.
This is ***the ***problem with liberal thinking. Truth is not determined by census.
 
This is ***the ***problem with liberal thinking. Truth is not determined by census.
Yeah, i know, conservatives always have to blame somebody else. It’s the nature of the beast. Everything is always black and white.
Who’s truth are you referring to? The church would be happy. Christ died for “Liberals” too. Be at Peace
 
I love cherries:p . I think that the Church needs to break up. Have progressive Catholics allow married priests, women priests etc… traditional Catholics can have scapulars, statues and whatever else they want. It would be so much more convenient. There would be no more complaining. The church won’t bend. It should take a census.
Let us progressives leave in peace.
Whoa! Let’s not use the same broad brush the traditionalists use. There already married priests (not many, true, but they exist) and not all “liberals” are necessarily for women priests. Besides, this is about far more than these outward trappings: this is about the relationship of God to His people and the role of the Church in that relationship and especially how much (if any) devotion is given to the institution that detracts from our devotion to God. [Man, that was poorly worded but I’m in a hurry to get to ready for church and do not have the time to fix it. Sorry.]
 
I think bringing up old Popes is a good example of interpreting Magestrium in your own way. It’s a tactic many traditionalist use on here.
Quoitng old Popes bothers you? VCan you gicve us a lit of those we can ignore. Is it wrong , for instance, to Quote Peter?
For me it’s more about how people go about sharing the faith and trying to “instruct the ignorant” it becomes more “force the ignorant” or “judge the ignorant” :rolleyes:

I find many arch conservatives seem to only focus on one aspect of the Spiritual works of Mercy “Admonish the sinner”
So if one comes to CAF and promtoes/defends what is obvioulsy a sin we should not point that out? It has been my expereicne tha most of the problems occure when so called Liberal Catholics try to distrit Church teachings to support their poltical views…
Now this has been my experience and you can believe it or not that’s your choice but I’m confident that many would agree with me and wouldn’t need examples.
Of course, like I said, there can be no discussion uless you give examples.
If you would feel better about having examples then as I’m browsing or find myself in a thread that is a good example, I’d be happy to link you in a private message.
I would rather you posted it here. Btw-using the term “arch-conservative” is against forum rules.
 
Yeah, i know, conservatives always have to blame somebody else. It’s the nature of the beast. Everything is always black and white.
Who’s truth are you referring to? The church would be happy. Christ died for “Liberals” too. Be at Peace
Can you give us some examples?
 
Though hardly an expert myself, I’ve never heard/read any “liberal” Catholic state that such things were a matter of interpretation of the magisterium. They all know what the Church teaches. Rather, it is a matter that their God-given intellect and free will have lead them to disagree with the Church’s conlusions. I’ve encountered them stating things such as “it wounds their hearts that the Church continues hold views which” they see as outdated or contrary to modern scientific discoveries/understandings or simply built upon weak arguments. Libs are not saying conservatives are misinterpreting the Church, quite the contrary. They’d be saying that the cons have got a hold on Her and wish they would let Her fully express Christ’s Love. What and How this “love” would be expressed IS a matter of interpretation and theology and philosophy and too big a discussion for this already overwrought thread.
So, rather than bad interpretation, the liberals believe the Church can/should change her teaching to conform with their desires? That’s just as bad or worse IMO. There are some things that are dogma (e.g. no women priests) that can’t be changed. Others, such as married priests, are a discipline.
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Strummer:
But let’s get to a real example. One came to me in the hours since my previous post: the death penalty. I’ve encountered many, many conservatives who claim their own support of the death penalty is sanctioned by the Church. They even go so far as to cite the Catechism, paragraph 2267, saying: “the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”. While this is indeed part of the Catechism, they ignore (hence my “cherry picking” accusation) the rest of the paragraph which concludes, “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’”
An excellent example. Yes, I would agree that while it is okay to believe in capital punishment, the Church teaches it should be “rare, if not practically non-existant.” This is a teaching I struggled with myself. For example, I personally believe that if capital punishment is to be done in the US, it should be reserved for mass murderers and/or serial killers.
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Strummer:
As I understand it, the Church allows that one may not necessarily, even with a willing heart, come to the same intellectual conclusions as divined by the Church itself. She does not condemn the honest, devoted Truth-seeker who takes a different path in their mind. Expounding and promulgating these ideas is another matter. Is your understanding different? I’d be interested in hearing it. Honest and sincere.
The Church teaches that we are to act according to our conscience. However, she also teaches that conscience can make erroneous judgment and that we must inform our conscience - at risk of being accused of cherry-picking 😛 :

CCC said:
**1783 **Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

This is the part that was left out of my RCIA instruction, when I was taught about conscience at a liberal parish in CA. They cherry-picked, and chose not to explain that a well-informed conscience won’t go against dogmatic teaching of the Church.
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Strummer:
And that, I believe, is the point anamchara was trying to make with her “warm fires” vs “cold stone” metaphor, though I’ve never seen libs behave so uncharitably unless they were either a) somewhat young or b) beset by several conservatives “attacking” them. On the other hand, I am not saying that all conservatives are more prone to be mean. Far from it. But to add a new wrinkle to this, I’ve noticed from my personal dealings on this and other boards like it, that if there was one group from which one would be more likely to receive an uncharitable response, it would be from a convert from a more evangelical (Pentacostal or non-denom) church than from a Mainstream Protestant convert or, certainly, from a cradle Catholic. I can only guess that this might be a learned behavior pattern garnered from years of “perceived persecution” and/or a psychological desire for a great deal of structure from their religion. But that’s just a guess.
I’ve seen equal levels of charity and non-charity from converts and "cradle’ Catholics, “liberals” and “conservatives,” so I don’t think you’ve made a fair characterization. However, it is your experience seen from your perspective, as is the opinion I have voiced.

Pax,
Robert
 
This is my on going question as to why traditionalist stay in the Church, they never seem to be happy with anything Vatican II. A few would say it’s how VII was implemented not the council itself that is their problem. 🤷 I think they just don’t like holding my hands in Church 😛
I guess I don’t understand what you mean by Vatican II…

I don’t see where hand holding during the Our Father is in vatican II…as for me I don’t do it because it isn’t in the rubrics of the Mass and I am prayerful more when folding my hands in prayer.

I don’t see myself as a tradtionalist or orthodox…just Roman Catholic.
 
Yeah, i know, conservatives always have to blame somebody else. It’s the nature of the beast.
:ehh: Whom did I blame?
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sosayi1960:
Everything is always black and white.
Who’s truth are you referring to?
Some things are, and the Church is not a democracy.
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sosayi1960:
The church would be happy.
The Church would be happy if what?
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sosayi1960:
Christ died for “Liberals” too. Be at Peace
Of course He did, and I have never challenged that. He died for all of us, and we are all sinners. We should all submit to the true teaching of the Church He founded while He was on earth.

Pax,
Robert
 
But let’s get to a real example. One came to me in the hours since my previous post: the death penalty. I’ve encountered many, many conservatives who claim their own support of the death penalty is sanctioned by the Church. They even go so far as to cite the Catechism, paragraph 2267, saying: “the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”. While this is indeed part of the Catechism, they ignore (hence my “cherry picking” accusation) the rest of the paragraph which concludes, “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’”
I am adamantly opposed to the Death penalty-I have stood in silent protest at a half dozen or so Executions at Huntsville Texas. Having said that to to state the Catholic Church opposes the Death Penalty is simply not true. And you and i both know that generally those who claim the death penalty is condemned by the Church segue that into trying to make a moral equivalency between one who supports the Death penalty and one who supports abortion Since they are the same, the rationale goes. its OK to vote for one who supports abortion as it is no worse than voting for one who supports the death penalty.

The other problem with this is that it gives our enemies ammunition to attack the Church. When we tell someone that the Church’s teachings have been consistent over the last 2,000 years they say "well, they changed their teaching on the Death Penalty! And if they changed their teachings on that then why cant they change their teachings on abortion or female ordination, etc. It is primarily for this reason i am adamant about correcting someone who claims the Church opposes the death penalty.
As I understand it, the Church allows that one may not necessarily, even with a willing heart, come to the same intellectual conclusions as divined by the Church itself. She does not condemn the honest, devoted Truth-seeker who takes a different path in their mind. Expounding and promulgating these ideas is another matter. Is your understanding different? I’d be interested in hearing it. Honest and sincere.
You have a basic misunderstanding of the primacy of conscience. It does not allow everyone to come u with their own version of Truth. You must form your conscience by studying the teachings of the the church. If you conscience tells you t o go against the teachings of the Church your conscience is wrong.

This might help catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0610uan.asp
And that, I believe, is the point anamchara was trying to make with her “warm fires” vs “cold stone” metaphor, though I’ve never seen libs behave so uncharitably unless they were either a) somewhat young or b) beset by several conservatives “attacking” them. On the other hand, I am not saying that all conservatives are more prone to be mean. Far from it. But to add a new wrinkle to this, I’ve noticed from my personal dealings on this and other boards like it, that if there was one group from which one would be more likely to receive an uncharitable response, it would be from a convert from a more evangelical (Pentacostal or non-denom) church than from a Mainstream Protestant convert or, certainly, from a cradle Catholic. I can only guess that this might be a learned behavior pattern garnered from years of “perceived persecution” and/or a psychological desire for a great deal of structure from their religion. But that’s just a guess.
My experience with the warn fires approach has been those who subscribe to it minimize or dismiss any teaching of the Church they disagree with. I have seen that at work many times-a person says I would like to join the Catholic Church but it has too many rules. The Conservative Catholic SAYS need to understand why the Church teaches what is does. The “warm fires” approach is to tell the that they don’t have to follow all that stuff. That the only important thing in the Church is that we love each other and if they have a problem with a teaching just follow their conscience.
 
Besides, this is about far more than these outward trappings: this is about the relationship of God to His people and the role of the Church in that relationship and especially how much (if any) devotion is given to the institution that detracts from our devotion to God. [Man, that was poorly worded but I’m in a hurry to get to ready for church and do not have the time to fix it. Sorry.]
I know you have a disclaimer in brackets, so maybe I am misunderstanding you. Do you believe that the Catholic Church detracts from your devotion to God?
 
Quoitng old Popes bothers you? VCan you gicve us a lit of those we can ignore. Is it wrong , for instance, to Quote Peter?

Are you saying that what the poster quoted is correct today? go back and read it then tell me if you think what was quoted is the position the Church holds today.
So if one comes to CAF and promtoes/defends what is obvioulsy a sin we should not point that out? It has been my expereicne tha most of the problems occure when so called Liberal Catholics try to distrit Church teachings to support their poltical views…
 
Though hardly an expert myself, I’ve never heard/read any “liberal” Catholic state that such things were a matter of interpretation of the magisterium. They all know what the Church teaches. Rather, it is a matter that their God-given intellect and free will have lead them to disagree with the Church’s conlusions. I’ve encountered them stating things such as “it wounds their hearts that the Church continues hold views which” they see as outdated or contrary to modern scientific discoveries/understandings or simply built upon weak arguments. Libs are not saying conservatives are misinterpreting the Church, quite the contrary. They’d be saying that the cons have got a hold on Her and wish they would let Her fully express Christ’s Love. What and How this “love” would be expressed IS a matter of interpretation and theology and philosophy and too big a discussion for this already overwrought thread.

But let’s get to a real example. One came to me in the hours since my previous post: the death penalty. I’ve encountered many, many conservatives who claim their own support of the death penalty is sanctioned by the Church. They even go so far as to cite the Catechism, paragraph 2267, saying: “the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty”. While this is indeed part of the Catechism, they ignore (hence my “cherry picking” accusation) the rest of the paragraph which concludes, “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’”

As I understand it, the Church allows that one may not necessarily, even with a willing heart, come to the same intellectual conclusions as divined by the Church itself. She does not condemn the honest, devoted Truth-seeker who takes a different path in their mind. Expounding and promulgating these ideas is another matter. Is your understanding different? I’d be interested in hearing it. Honest and sincere.

And that, I believe, is the point anamchara was trying to make with her “warm fires” vs “cold stone” metaphor, though I’ve never seen libs behave so uncharitably unless they were either a) somewhat young or b) beset by several conservatives “attacking” them. On the other hand, I am not saying that all conservatives are more prone to be mean. Far from it. But to add a new wrinkle to this, I’ve noticed from my personal dealings on this and other boards like it, that if there was one group from which one would be more likely to receive an uncharitable response, it would be from a convert from a more evangelical (Pentacostal or non-denom) church than from a Mainstream Protestant convert or, certainly, from a cradle Catholic. I can only guess that this might be a learned behavior pattern garnered from years of “perceived persecution” and/or a psychological desire for a great deal of structure from their religion. But that’s just a guess.
Perfect as always! 😃 Thanks btw 😉
 
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