Should liberals leave the catholic church?

[vern_humphrey]

naww we get how a fireplace works, hearth, wood, chimney etc…conservatives see only the stone and the hardness and believes it tells them that they must always be uncomfortable and so the kneel upon the cold stone and throw water on the fire and say “the Church is not about being nice”!

So give us some specifics. Tell us what your complaint is.

And I thought we had agreed we were not going to pin labels like “liberal” and “conservative” on our fellow Catholics.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

We might be able to help, if you would tell us your specific problems.

Ah! The light goes on! Do you think that this might be one reason to put oneself in the path of the Church?

 

[vern_humphrey]

And there is the problem with conservatives they can only deal with the literal, they do not recognize the truth found in symbols and metaphorical language.

Symbols and metaphors by themselves are meaningless – by definition, they represent other things.

Give us some specifics.

 

[anamchara]

Symbols and metaphors by themselves are meaningless – by definition, they represent other things.

Give us some specifics.

Many of the things that arch conservatives consider “happy clappy” and that’s the word they invented and like to use to mock… like holding hands during the Lords Prayer, allowing female altar servers, passing of the peace, enjoying liturgical music of today and not 60 yrs ago, youth masses, is what keeps the warmth in my opinion.

I have found far righters to be cold and more like pharisees then anything resembling the love of Christ.

 

[estesbob]

Many of the things that arch conservatives consider “happy clappy” and that’s the word they invented and like to use to mock… like holding hands during the Lords Prayer, allowing female altar servers, passing of the peace, enjoying liturgical music of today and not 60 yrs ago, youth masses, is what keeps the warmth in my opinion.

So you have absolutely no problems with ALL the Curchs teachings and you complaints are all based on asethics?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Many of the things that arch conservatives consider “happy clappy” and that’s the word they invented and like to use to mock… like holding hands during the Lords Prayer, allowing female altar servers, passing of the peace, enjoying liturgical music of today and not 60 yrs ago, youth masses, is what keeps the warmth in my opinion.

So your claim is the Catholic Church rejects things like holding hands during the Lords Prayer, allowing female altar servers, passing of the peace, enjoying liturgical music of today

I have found far righters to be cold and more like pharisees then anything resembling the love of Christ.

In all charity I must point out that when you attack others like that at the outset, what you see in them may well be what you elicited by your attack.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Sheesh. No sooner does one attempt to point out the uncharity in labelling when folks come out to label with avengeance.

Go figure. :hypno:

 

[anamchara]

So your claim is the Catholic Church rejects

things like holding hands during the Lords Prayer, allowing female altar servers, passing of the peace, enjoying liturgical music of today

No, I don’t believe the Church rejects any of this it’s the people who reject and mock my love for the NO that I don’t like.

In all charity I must point out that when you attack others like that at the outset, what you see in them

 

[anamchara]

Sheesh. No sooner does one attempt to point out the uncharity in labelling when folks come out to label with avengeance.

Go figure. :hypno:

The thing is it’s reality. The Church is divided and it seems unrealistic to not notice it. No one has to go any further than this forum to see the very strong different views.

But getting back to the OP, no one should leave the Church and I pray more come in. We do need to find ways to not be at each other so often and stop assuming intentions or beliefs of someone else.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, I don’t believe the Church rejects any of this it’s the people who reject and mock my love for the NO that I don’t like.

If I understand your correctly, there are some people in your parish with whom you are quarreling over the NO Mass?

Have you considered that if you will not quarrel with them, there is no way they can quarrel with you?

Thank you for pointing this out and trying to be kind about it I wasn’t always so quick to make statments like that but too many years of being attacked by arch conservatives in the Church on Catholic forums have put a bad taste in my mouth, I’ve been accused of every ism there is and at one time called a heretic because I believed my mom is going to heaven (she’s Protestant)

It would be better if you would not project these quarrels onto other people. Simply ignore those people who attack you, and seek common ground with everyone else.

This type of strong arm tactics is distasteful to me. Call me a softy squishy liberal or whatever, I just don’t like people who shove dogma down throats and act nasty to possible converts or anyone. What gets me is they do it all under the banner of the Church and being rude is a badge of honor for them. They often act like they are the last bastion to save the Church.

Who shoved dogma down your throat and what dogma did they shove?

It’s this type of coldness that nearly kept me form converting.

Converting to what?

I think online attracts the far right fringes more than the average nice Catholic just trying to live the good life.

I think if you go looking for a quarrel, you can find one anywhere. And if you go looking for friends, they can be found anywhere.

 

[estesbob]

)

This type of strong arm tactics is distasteful to me. Call me a softy squishy liberal or whatever, I just don’t like people who shove dogma down throats and act nasty to possible converts or anyone.
.

 

[anamchara]

If I understand your correctly, there are some people in your parish with whom you are quarreling over the NO Mass?

Have you considered that if you will not quarrel with them, there is no way they can quarrel with you?

 

[vern_humphrey]

No one in my parish vern I meant on line stuff.

Then it is even more true that if you will not quarrel with them, they cannot quarrel with you.

Well, we were talking about liberals and conservatives so I chimed in. I don’t normally “project” as a rule, it’s just the topic in this thread and I’m trying to just answer your questions as best as I can. I was Protestant and now Catholic. If you want to know about my conversion feel free to email me, seriously.

The only questions I have are “What issues of dogma do you feel are being forced on you?”

Ahh but it only takes one wrong word and they are on you like vultures

What wrong word?

you don’t no me very well, I don’t look for quarrels. I am a softy squish liberal and mainly hide out in the club forum and spirituality section. makes for a lighter heart.

Then let us not quarrel – and for sure, let us not blame the Church for any quarrels we may have!

 

[anamchara]

anamchara;2438812:

As a Catholic why would anyone have to shove Dogma down your throat?

I wasn’t talking about myself necessarily, more speaking in general terms as I’ve seen it many times on here and other places.

I do believe you can win people to your side more easily by gentle persuasion and flattery than by hostile confrontations. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I see more hostile approach in apologetics and other areas of the forum than the other.

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[Ani_Ibi]

anamchara:

The thing is it’s reality. The Church is divided and it seems unrealistic to not notice it. No one has to go any further than this forum to see the very strong different views.

It’s your subjective reality. It has no objective reality.

The Church has many divergent views. The Magisterium, however, does not.

When folks use labels such as ‘progressive’ and ‘regressive’ to prefix Catholicism, they are not referring to matters on which divergent views can legitimately be held. They are referring to Magisterial teaching on which divergent views cannot legitimately be held. At least not within the Church.

The point is that in terms of Magisterial teaching there is no such thing as a ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’ Catholic. The Church is not divided on this issue. Saying that the Church is divided does not make it so.

Now some folks claiming to be Catholic may be divided against themselves and divided against Catholics on Magisterial teaching. But, since their rebellion has already led them to the exit door, it is inaccurate to say that they are still Catholics. Saying that they are still Catholics does not make them so.

But getting back to the OP, no one should leave the Church and I pray more come in.

No one has to leave the Church.

anamchara:

We do need to find ways to not be at each other so often and stop assuming intentions or beliefs of someone else.

Sounds like a strawman. Please point out the assumptions about intentions and beliefs. I missed them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I feel like an early Catholic – facing Persecution for the Name.

The early Catholic Apologists asked, “Why are you persecuting us? What crimes have we committed?”

And they would go right down the list of things popular rumor accused Catholics of – not paying taxes, sacrificing babies at Mass, and so on, and they would say, “If that’s what you think we do, accuse us of that. Bring us to court and prove it.”

But of course, the pagans would never do that – Catholics were not persecuted for what they did, they were persecuted for having the name of Catholic.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…Catholics were not persecuted for what they did, they were persecuted for having the name of Catholic.

And we still are.

 

[Strummer]

It’s your subjective reality. It has no objective reality.

As is any “reality” you propose.

The Church has many divergent views. The Magisterium, however, does not.

But oh how many good folks such as yourself and countless others come to slightly different interpretations of those views?

When folks use labels such as ‘progressive’ and ‘regressive’ to prefix Catholicism, they are not referring to matters on which divergent views can legitimately be held. They are referring to Magisterial teaching on which divergent views cannot legitimately be held. At least not within the Church.

I would agree with that but add the caveat that far too many people (primarily “conservatives” in my experience) believe that their own subjective interpreations ARE the views of the Church. They have cherry-picked statements, writings, and quotations that support their view and ignored others of equal standing that do not. And, because the Church is the ultimate source for all of this, including their cherry-picked stuff, they believe they speak for the Church.

Now, please note, if this is the source or anamchara’s discomfort with “conservatives” (as I believe it is) it rests with the people and not with the Church. Yet, for some reason there are those here on this very thread who are trying to paint her as being at odds with the Church. Hmm, they seem to have cherry-picked her words and ignored those where she has explicitly stated it was the *people *she had trouble with…and then seem to pontificate from their self-assessed place of “objectivity”. Seems that pathology can leak over into many aspects of life.

Now some folks claiming to be Catholic may be divided against themselves and divided against Catholics on Magisterial teaching. But, since their rebellion has already led them to the exit door, it is inaccurate to say that they are still Catholics. Saying that they are still Catholics does not make them so.

Hmm, that sounds a lot like the old, “if you don’t believe the way I believe then you’re not a ‘real’ Catholic…oh, it’s not *me *who says that, it’s the Mother Church”. I’ve seen that ploy before…all too many times. Again, feasting upon cherries and ignoring the tree.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hmm, that sounds a lot like the old, “if you don’t believe the way I believe then you’re not a ‘real’ Catholic…oh, it’s not *me *who says that, it’s the Mother Church”. I’ve seen that ploy before…all too many times. Again, feasting upon cherries and ignoring the tree.

So give us some concrete examples.

 

[estesbob]

As is any “reality” you propose.

But oh how many good folks such as yourself and countless others come to slightly different interpretations of those views?

Can you give us some examples?

I would agree with that but add the caveat that far too many people (primarily “conservatives” in my experience) believe that their own subjective interpreations ARE the views of the Church. They have cherry-picked statements, writings, and quotations that support their view and ignored others of equal standing that do not. And, because the Church is the ultimate source for all of this, including their cherry-picked stuff, they believe they speak for the Church.

Again unless you give us some examples it is hard to understand what you mean?

Now, please note, if this is the source or anamchara’s discomfort with “conservatives” (as I believe it is) it rests with the people and not with the Church. Yet, for some reason there are those here on this very thread who are trying to paint her as being at odds with the Church. Hmm, they seem to have cherry-picked her words and ignored those where she has explicitly stated it was the *people *she had trouble with…and then seem to pontificate from their self-assessed place of “objectivity”. Seems that pathology can leak over into many aspects of life.

So the views of the “people” tump the teachigs of ths Church. Can you tell us how this works?

Hmm, that sounds a lot like the old, “if you don’t believe the way I believe then you’re not a ‘real’ Catholic…oh, it’s not *me *who says that, it’s the Mother Church”. I’ve seen that ploy before…all too many times. Again, feasting upon cherries and ignoring the tree.

The ploy I have seen, especially in this thread, is the reluctance of thoe who despise so called conservatives to give ANY example of what teachings, interperations or doctinres they are talking about.