Should liberals leave the catholic church?

[anamchara]

That’s what I said – the holier-than-thou crowd.

holier than thou, squishy liberal, happy clappy…etc…whatever you want to call it

I think it’s just those warm fires I was talking about

 

[estesbob]

no,just holier then you vern :angel1:

Well that’s no big accomplishment

 

[vern_humphrey]

holier than thou, squishy liberal, happy clappy…etc…whatever you want to call it

I think it’s just those warm fires I was talking about

And that makes you feel better, does it?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well that’s no big accomplishment

Nor is it – sinner than I am.

 

[rlg94086]

I am very sorry for your experience with a mean priest. They do exist, as priests are human. I don’t think you will find ministers/preachers in non-Catholic Churches any different. Does that mean you won’t find a loving minister/preacher? Of course you will…just as you could find a more loving priest. Don’t indict the Church based on one person.

I haven’t and wouldn’t ask anyone to leave our Church. Rather, I ask people to pray, learn and submit to the teachings of Christ and His Church. I know that isn’t always easy, and it doesn’t always match up with personal desires. That’s why Jesus called some of his sayings “hard.” Some of the disciples left Jesus because of those hard sayings. Please don’t make the same mistake they did.

I hope you and your family can pray together and worship together, preferably in the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.

God bless,
Robert

The church doesn’t need any progressive members. Some of us question certain teachings. I know the church is not a democracy. So, we will leave. The church, at least many of it’s members say get out. Fine, my family and I will leave. I can easily raise my family in another denomination.

My wife wants to remain Catholic. She said she will leave when she gets a letter from the Bishop. I have to believe that the Holy Spirit is calling my family to another church.

My son has Autism. The priest treats him like vermin. No Christian compassion. Funny how the church which preaches “Life” has contempt for the less than perfect. I guess I’ll have to go cherry picking elsewhere. I cannot be an elite Catholic. Our lord said “You must be perfect”. Well I cannot be a “perfect” Catholic.
My kids and my wife aren’t perfect either. The church doesn’t need us. We don’t need it either. God reveals himself in many ways. God knows my family and my life with all our imperfections. God will provide. God Bless!

 

[fix]

At the risk of being called a “ranting fundamentalist from the Protestant far right fringes” again, I have to say I never knew anyone who left the Catholic Church out of love.

Yes, a valid point. How many Holy Spirits are there? Is there one that speaks through the Church, one that leads your conscience one way and one that leads me in the opposite way?

The problem with conscience is not some outside authority, the problem is within our conscience. When we rebel we are at war with ourself.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes, a valid point. How many Holy Spirits are there? Is there one that speaks through the Church, one that leads your conscience one way and one that leads me in the opposite way?

The problem with conscience is not some outside authority, the problem is within our conscience. When we rebel we are at war with ourself.

Amen – if you stay in these forums long enough, you see most people who have with problems with the Church are really having problems with themselves – their demons are of their own making.

But do I know? I’m just a “ranting fundamentalist from the Protestant far right fringes” – according to a really holy person who shall remain nameless.

 

[anamchara]

I am very sorry for your experience with a mean priest. They do exist, as priests are human. I don’t think you will find ministers/preachers in non-Catholic Churches any different. Does that mean you won’t find a loving minister/preacher? Of course you will…just as you could find a more loving priest. Don’t indict the Church based on one person.

I haven’t and wouldn’t ask anyone to leave our Church. Rather, I ask people to pray, learn and submit to the teachings of Christ and His Church. I know that isn’t always easy, and it doesn’t always match up with personal desires. That’s why Jesus called some of his sayings “hard.” Some of the disciples left Jesus because of those hard sayings. Please don’t make the same mistake they did.

I hope you and your family can pray together and worship together, preferably in the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.

God bless,
Robert

As the holier one in this thread , I deem this post perfect :getholy:

Well put Robert

 

[fix]

I pray for this but I also pray that people who have harden their hearts to only the letter of law will one day soften.

Is this not the usual canard presented? I am always reading here charges of being a pharisee, or legalist, or such thing.

It seems to imply the “letter of the law” is really not important and is simply some ideal in some dusty book while the truth is we should just operate by “love” which is rarely defined in any meaningful way.

It is as if love and the law oppose each other.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Is this not the usual canard presented? I am always reading here charges of being a pharisee, or legalist, or such thing.

It seems to imply the “letter of the law” is really not important and is simply some ideal in some dusty book while the truth is we should just operate by “love” which is rarely defined in any meaningful way.

It is as if love and the law oppose each other.

Ah, you must be another “ranting fundamentalist from the Protestant far right fringes.”

You have to understand that some of us are so holy that they don’t need ventilation fans in their bathrooms.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Most of the battering I have experienced is by folks who resort to these labels in the first place. As I have said before: Catholics are Catholics.

Benedict XV said something like that too - as I’ve pointed out a couple of times.​

Do you believe prefixing Catholicism to be charitable? If not, then why do you cling to the notion that the prefixing of Catholicism has a place in discussions of Catholic theology?

What notion ?​

I think that it’s useful to distinguish between Catholics in certain circumstances - as when Catholics are of different rites or backgrounds: a Ukrainian Catholic in Scotland is unlikely to be identical with a Anglican Use Catholic in the US. But, I think it’s anything but helpful when labels are used which imply that people are not really Catholic, or that only some are; with the implication that those who don’t agree with a (self-styled) group (such as “true Catholics”) in all respects, are not also Catholics.

OTOH, if people want to describe the sort of Catholicism which gives meaning to their lives, whether it be “conservative”, or not - if this sort of description (whether self-given or given by others) does not imply that those who do not share that particular emphasis are any less Catholic than those who do: that is surely perfectly legitimate; because that label (for example) does not imply that others are any less Catholic, only that there are other Catholics, who are not conservative.

 

[estesbob]

As I said earlier, I don’t believe liberals should leave the Church and I pray for this but I also pray that people who have harden their hearts to only the letter of law will one day soften.

Could you give us a list of church laws its ok for us to ignore? When i was in the Seminary I was taught we had to follow all of them but it appears things have changed. I really would like to know which ones arent important-especially if its one those pesky ones like having to go to Church once a week amd not being able to use cotraception and not beiong able ot have sex outside or marriage…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

People who find themselves disagreeing with major doctrine of their chosen political party usually leave and either start a different party or join another party closer to their views.Shouldn’t catholics who disagree with the Church on major issues do the same thing?..

No, because the Church is not a political party - nor even similar to one: the two are radically different in nature.​

Unless we are to think that Jesus Christ founded the Labour Party - or, if folk in the US prefer, the Republican Party. The Church certainly behaves like a political party at times, but it is not one by nature. Anymore than a man can become a mere beast - there is plenty in common, but also some crucial ontological differences which cannot be altered, only obscured.

And there is all the difference in the world between a doctrine like that of capitalism, which is anything but God-revealed, & the fact of Christ, which is God’s Revelation of God. So how anyone could confuse the Church, with temporary,evanescent things like political parties…

 

[rlg94086]

As the holier one in this thread , I deem this post perfect :getholy:

Well put Robert

Thanks for the vote of confidence. However, understand that I agree with Vern, (Estes)Bob and fix, 99% of the time - including the posts in this thread. In fact, if I had read sosayi’s posts in other threads (I have since) or had interchanges with him in the past (as Vern has), then I may not have responded in such a manner.

Clearly, he is having the same experience as the disciples who left Jesus. I pray that he doesn’t harden his heart, and that he realizes what he is considering leaving.

Pax,
Robert

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, because the Church is not a political party - nor even similar to one: the two are radically different in nature.​

Unless we are to think that Jesus Christ founded the Labour Party - or, if folk in the US prefer, the Republican Party. The Church certainly behaves like a political party at times, but it is not one by nature. Anymore than a man can become a mere beast - there is plenty in common, but also some crucial ontological differences which cannot be altered, only obscured.

And there is all the difference in the world between a doctrine like that of capitalism, which is anything but God-revealed, & the fact of Christ, which is God’s Revelation of God. So how anyone could confuse the Church, with temporary,evanescent things like political parties…

Well, capitalism isn’t a “doctrine” but otherwise, no one should leave the Church. Those who have difficulties with the Church should pray for the grace to understand and accept.

 

[rlg94086]

Could you give us a list of church laws its ok for us to ignore? When i was in the Seminary I was taught we had to follow all of them but it appears things have changed. I really would like to know which ones arent important-especially if its one those pesky ones like having to go to Church once a week amd not being able to use cotraception and not beiong able ot have sex outside or marriage…

That’s easy Bob. Just ask Jimeny Cricket. If he tells you that your choice is okay and the Church is wrong, voila! You now have permission to ignore the Church.

 

[rlg94086]

Well, capitalism isn’t a “doctrine” but otherwise, no one should leave the Church. Those who have difficulties with the Church should pray for the grace to understand and accept.

Hardest thing I ever did (still doing).

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hardest thing I ever did (still doing).

Of course it’s hard – did not the desciples who left Christ say, “This is very hard?”

 

[b_justb]

Of course it’s hard – did not the desciples who left Christ say, “This is very hard?”

I thought it was the ones that stayed that said it was hard, no?

No, I am wrong, you are right. John 6:60 "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’ " (Then they bailed outeth)

I’ve had to change my conscience on several things because I wanted church teaching to mold who I am instead of just me molding me and it’s been dang hard every time.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I thought it was the ones that stayed that said it was hard, no?

No, I am wrong, you are right. John 6:60 "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’ " (Then they bailed outeth)

Not waiting for the pilot to cut power, or to hook up, they went out on their reserves.

I’ve had to change my conscience on several things because I wanted church teaching to mold who I am instead of just me molding me and it’s been dang hard every time.

And, as you say, it’s hard to do. We have to admit we are wrong, and not God.